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Post by busman on Nov 25, 2021 5:37:25 GMT
Agreed the 341 is 100+ minutes and yet people still are suggesting it to be extended further into Meridian Water! I prefer longer routes than shorter routes. Some routes despite short can be more unreliable than longer routes as there is no where on the route to make up time. This can be done on certain long routes. We have been stumbled with too many short routes over the years, many as the product to make tendering attractive, but has over the years only gone on to be worse off for the tax payer imo. Routes like 436, 453, 476 should have been demerged years ago after the bendy bus era ended. I guess it would need a willingness on TfL’s part to return to split frequencies. For example the 453 could probably be covered by extending the 12 to Marylebone and the 53 to Trafalgar Square, but there would be a need for extras on the 53 between Deptford/New Cross and Trafalgar Square during busier periods.
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Post by redexpress on Nov 25, 2021 6:41:36 GMT
Is route 143 cleared for double deck working? Also the 143 has a lower frequency than the 263 it would replace, which might be a problem. Not round the Long Lane/Squires Lane section. The route was converted to single-deck midibus at the same time it was rerouted that way in 1991 so double-deckers have never operated that section. There have been a very small number of DD workings over the 143's current route. I travelled on one of them many years ago. As far as I can tell it is another of those routes that is restricted to SD only because of residents' objections.
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Post by DT 11 on Nov 25, 2021 7:50:18 GMT
Agreed the 341 is 100+ minutes and yet people still are suggesting it to be extended further into Meridian Water! I prefer longer routes than shorter routes. Some routes despite short can be more unreliable than longer routes as there is no where on the route to make up time. This can be done on certain long routes. We have been stumbled with too many short routes over the years, many as the product to make tendering attractive, but has over the years only gone on to be worse off for the tax payer imo. Routes like 436, 453, 476 should have been demerged years ago after the bendy bus era ended. In relation to the 476 I wouldn’t be surprised if it is merged with the 73 or replaced by an extension to the 349 to King’s Cross in the future. Has already had reductions and now cut to Kings Cross.
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 25, 2021 7:54:25 GMT
I prefer longer routes than shorter routes. Some routes despite short can be more unreliable than longer routes as there is no where on the route to make up time. This can be done on certain long routes. We have been stumbled with too many short routes over the years, many as the product to make tendering attractive, but has over the years only gone on to be worse off for the tax payer imo. Routes like 436, 453, 476 should have been demerged years ago after the bendy bus era ended. In relation to the 476 I wouldn’t be surprised if it is merged with the 73 or replaced by an extension to the 349 to King’s Cross in the future. Has already had reductions and now cut to Kings Cross. Or even just to Angel. There a steady load in the mornings definitely as far as Islington for the area and the tube from Essex Road/Newington Green. The 349 could satisfy that with maybe an extra journey on the 341 to Northumberland Park or re extend the 76. The Tottenham to Euston link is already broken from having both the 73 and 476 up till 2011.
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Post by DT 11 on Nov 25, 2021 9:15:24 GMT
I prefer longer routes than shorter routes. Some routes despite short can be more unreliable than longer routes as there is no where on the route to make up time. This can be done on certain long routes. We have been stumbled with too many short routes over the years, many as the product to make tendering attractive, but has over the years only gone on to be worse off for the tax payer imo. Routes like 436, 453, 476 should have been demerged years ago after the bendy bus era ended. I guess it would need a willingness on TfL’s part to return to split frequencies. For example the 453 could probably be covered by extending the 12 to Marylebone and the 53 to Trafalgar Square, but there would be a need for extras on the 53 between Deptford/New Cross and Trafalgar Square during busier periods. Cannot see the 53 getting any further extension. However now that the further routes are now standing at Oxford Circus I wouldn’t be surprised if a review occurs as suggested above 12 to Marylebone. Overall I don’t think the 453 will be touched. I wouldn’t like the 436 to go either but I could potentially see the 453 replacing between Lewisham & New Cross Gate the 436 withdrawn.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 25, 2021 15:41:44 GMT
In relation to the 476 I wouldn’t be surprised if it is merged with the 73 or replaced by an extension to the 349 to King’s Cross in the future. Has already had reductions and now cut to Kings Cross. Or even just to Angel. There a steady load in the mornings definitely as far as Islington for the area and the tube from Essex Road/Newington Green. The 349 could satisfy that with maybe an extra journey on the 341 to Northumberland Park or re extend the 76. The Tottenham to Euston link is already broken from having both the 73 and 476 up till 2011. I would agree, the current King's Cross terminus just isn't useful. Perhaps stands could be crafted on Pentonville Road with the 349 picking up on White Lion Street. Though this does raise the question of would the 476s removal impact Tottenham High Road loadings especially from Seven Sisters. 6bph is quite a drop.
However, the route could run every 8 minutes to address overcrowding between Edmonton & Ponders End while only making for a net -3.5bph drop between Bruce Grove Station & Stamford Hill.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 25, 2021 19:18:33 GMT
Or even just to Angel. There a steady load in the mornings definitely as far as Islington for the area and the tube from Essex Road/Newington Green. The 349 could satisfy that with maybe an extra journey on the 341 to Northumberland Park or re extend the 76. The Tottenham to Euston link is already broken from having both the 73 and 476 up till 2011. I would agree, the current King's Cross terminus just isn't useful. Perhaps stands could be crafted on Pentonville Road with the 349 picking up on White Lion Street. Though this does raise the question of would the 476s removal impact Tottenham High Road loadings especially from Seven Sisters. 6bph is quite a drop.
However, the route could run every 8 minutes to address overcrowding between Edmonton & Ponders End while only making for a net -3.5bph drop between Bruce Grove Station & Stamford Hill.
That would be awfully lengthy route if the 349 ran that far south, the corridor is one big slog so can't see how it could be justified to extend so far.
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Post by Trafalgax on Nov 25, 2021 23:16:09 GMT
I prefer longer routes than shorter routes. Some routes despite short can be more unreliable than longer routes as there is no where on the route to make up time. This can be done on certain long routes. We have been stumbled with too many short routes over the years, many as the product to make tendering attractive, but has over the years only gone on to be worse off for the tax payer imo. Routes like 436, 453, 476 should have been demerged years ago after the bendy bus era ended. In relation to the 476 I wouldn’t be surprised if it is merged with the 73 or replaced by an extension to the 349 to King’s Cross in the future. Has already had reductions and now cut to Kings Cross. Extending 349 to Clapton Pond is a better idea in my opinion although Upper Clapton Road can be congested at times.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 26, 2021 2:58:03 GMT
In relation to the 476 I wouldn’t be surprised if it is merged with the 73 or replaced by an extension to the 349 to King’s Cross in the future. Has already had reductions and now cut to Kings Cross. Extending 349 to Clapton Pond is a better idea in my opinion although Upper Clapton Road can be congested at times. That would be a lot more manageable than King's Cross or Angel
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Post by greenboy on Nov 26, 2021 8:35:23 GMT
In relation to the 476 I wouldn’t be surprised if it is merged with the 73 or replaced by an extension to the 349 to King’s Cross in the future. Has already had reductions and now cut to Kings Cross. Extending 349 to Clapton Pond is a better idea in my opinion although Upper Clapton Road can be congested at times. A potential problem with extending the 349 further south is coping with peak hour loadings from the tube at Seven Sisters if the bus is already well loaded.
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Post by southlondon413 on Nov 26, 2021 8:42:47 GMT
Extending 349 to Clapton Pond is a better idea in my opinion although Upper Clapton Road can be congested at times. A potential problem with extending the 349 further south is coping with peak hour loadings from the tube at Seven Sisters if the bus is already well loaded. I don’t understand how you can have a problem with suggesting an extension to the 349 but see no problem with suggesting merging the 37 with the 337 and H37 or the 71 with the 85.
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Post by CircleLineofLife on Nov 26, 2021 10:33:43 GMT
TfL has had £4b in bailouts. That is roughly £500 per head of population. If you are a family of 4 ... would you have liked £2k to be spent better? TFL should've culled some routes during the pandemic IMO. That might've at least softened the blow compared to what we are facing now. I mean these changes are before the latest infrastructure deal which didn't give London any money, and when you compare it to other countries and cities which get subsidies for PT its a bit unfair. £4b in bailouts is pittance when you compare it to the projects that are upcoming. They really want Crossrail 2 and the Bakerloo line extension to come through, and potential DLR extension to Thamesmead from Beckton. Crossrail 1 already costs around £40bn, and that is going to take years to pay off. Also bus electrification will also slow down as less money is coming in, just a heads up if you expecting new models on certain routes, i think the 29 deffo needs to change the fleet for a frequent well-used route, those Arriva equivalent VWs are grimy. And these changes were planned for the last round of cuts as well, we got to remember that. Plus there were conditions when securing that £4bn, like increasing fares and finding new revenue streams, making the network more sustainable (arguably a political move by Boris to make Sadiq look worse, but I digress). In the meanwhile while I rate the northern and central bits of London compared to the South. Cutting routes in the south would be a lot more detrimental, as the tube network is relatively less developed, and everyone know that. Also yeah during Covid the max bus limit was for a decker was 30, so capacity being full, its kind of skewed in that regard. Tbf, everyone is looking at it from a more qualitative perspective to than TfL. When its a business its a numbers game unfortunately/fortunately. And it order to be sustainable 5 routes + the northern line, is not really sustainable even if 2 of those buses go to Highgate village and not the station. One of the main objectives is to be sustainable, when the bailout happened. And also if you have railcard off peak which will decrease fare by 33%. Doing the Archway- Highgate/east Finchley link is cheaper by tube. Bus= £1.55 vs £1.70*0.67=£1.14, so why would you take the bus you would just walk it for the extra savings. I think bus capacity will shift from the North and West to the South and East of London, as the overall transport networks are less resilient until these projects are finished. As most of the upcoming bus changes look to be in around the Royal docks and Greenwich and Opportunity areas Old Oak, Brent Cross West, Woolwich, Old Kent Road as we know, as a lot of development is happening there, these areas also need the capacity, as the predicted growth is going to just be higher. Technically you also have 5 routes doing the Archway - Highgate link + the Northern. When you look at the demographics and statistical geography of Highgate. Not that I am attacking any certain group of people, i am just inferring off the data in regards to the LTDS. With the recent extension of the northern there are more trains that can be accommodated on the whole line. Firstly, the 15/20 min city concept is being implemented as framework for policy, so 'local active travel' is now being pushed. But you are also right in saying leisure trips increased over the pandemic, however shopping and work trips went down a lot. The daytime bus network passenger recovery rate has been stalling since October at just over 60% pre pandemic, part of this is due to tourism, but also due to less working and shopping trips. I mean multi-modal transport can mean cycling and walking, but the idea is for cycling/walking to the station or bus stop, with station and buses being more accommodating of bikes eg. more bike rakes and. 20 mins a day of exercise. 'Healthier London'. I do not think walking is awful in London unless its central, its very good compared to other parts of the country, in terms of infrastructure. And the 'hills' are still quite flat, go to Sheffield or Exeter and compare the topography to transport ratio, its kind of deep. Highgate is in the West of Harringey, which is the affluent part of the borough and compared to other parts of London, has a high white population. So this means that buses are not going to be the defacto mode of transport. So there are areas of deprivation that could use the spare bus capacity as well, as it tends to be these communities that rely on buses, and with ULEZ being a regressive tax these communities are in need of more better transport.
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Post by CircleLineofLife on Nov 26, 2021 10:36:59 GMT
Not round the Long Lane/Squires Lane section. The route was converted to single-deck midibus at the same time it was rerouted that way in 1991 so double-deckers have never operated that section. There have been a very small number of DD workings over the 143's current route. I travelled on one of them many years ago. As far as I can tell it is another of those routes that is restricted to SD only because of residents' objections. Resident objection is so jarring, like there are two ways about it either should pay for mitigations, or the residents should just suck it up, they chose to live on that road at then end of day.
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Post by greenboy on Nov 26, 2021 10:47:29 GMT
There have been a very small number of DD workings over the 143's current route. I travelled on one of them many years ago. As far as I can tell it is another of those routes that is restricted to SD only because of residents' objections. Resident objection is so jarring, like there are two ways about it either should pay for mitigations, or the residents should just suck it up, they chose to live on that road at then end of day. And if you were a resident maybe you would be singing from the same hymn sheet? The situation is what it is and it's not likely to change.
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Post by wirewiper on Nov 26, 2021 10:51:49 GMT
There have been a very small number of DD workings over the 143's current route. I travelled on one of them many years ago. As far as I can tell it is another of those routes that is restricted to SD only because of residents' objections. Resident objection is so jarring, like there are two ways about it either should pay for mitigations, or the residents should just suck it up, they chose to live on that road at then end of day. So you think that residents should have no say about the roads they live on? They may have chosen to live there - but some will have been there before the 143 was routed that way, and others will have bought/rented their houses and flats on the understanding that double-deck buses would not be used along that road.
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