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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 9:48:51 GMT
To be honest I was going to think the 63s plan to be the complete opposite and to be declared a failure. Can't see people suddenly flocking en mass to the 63 just because suddenly there's a nice bus on it. It could be the perfect excuse for TfL to save money and actually say that doing all of this doesn't work and use it for future justification. I don't think anyone seriously expects usage of the 63 to increase significantly just because it's got nicer buses, if a 363 comes first most people will still get that. Surely it should be the start of a long term project to make bus travel more attractive, these sort of standards have been the norm elsewhere for years. Would anybody build a new all electric car with 1960's style seats? On the other hand if you want many people to still see bus travel as a last resort then leave things as they are. And this is what I have been saying for ages in particular about branding of electric buses! It is pointless as most routes in London are duplicated in parts and people will just get on a bus regardless! All London bus passengers want is a clean bus that turns up on time and makes good progress. |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 9:57:58 GMT
I think any passenger number increases on the 63 will be negligible and the public won’t be fooled by the future bus project when they realise it isn’t actually improving the fundamental problems that exist on the bus network. It’s like slapping lipstick on a pig, you can tart it up but at the end of the day a pig is still a pig. One thing that would I suppose help is TFL actually listening to the public when they come out with consultations rather than just do the absolute opposite. I think the south Newham changes will come back and bite TfL. I have seen some very decent loadings on the 262 from Beckton Sainsbury's towards Gallions Reach and Asda recently and really can't see the single decker 366 coping. The same with the 241 being diverted away from Canning Town! |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 3, 2022 10:07:21 GMT
I don't think anyone seriously expects usage of the 63 to increase significantly just because it's got nicer buses, if a 363 comes first most people will still get that. Surely it should be the start of a long term project to make bus travel more attractive, these sort of standards have been the norm elsewhere for years. Would anybody build a new all electric car with 1960's style seats? On the other hand if you want many people to still see bus travel as a last resort then leave things as they are. And this is what I have been saying for ages in particular about branding of electric buses! It is pointless as most routes in London are duplicated in parts and people will just get on a bus regardless! All London bus passengers want is a clean bus that turns up on time and makes good progress. Would you maybe accept branding if it was a new service or say if it were part of a big grand scheme of changes such as the South Newham ones? For example with the 300 you mentioned that because of it going the other way up P Regent Lane passengers would likely be really confused, would that perhaps help things out? Same with the 474. |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 10:11:22 GMT
And this is what I have been saying for ages in particular about branding of electric buses! It is pointless as most routes in London are duplicated in parts and people will just get on a bus regardless! All London bus passengers want is a clean bus that turns up on time and makes good progress. Would you maybe accept branding if it was a new service or say if it were part of a big grand scheme of changes such as the South Newham ones? For example with the 300 you mentioned that because of it going the other way up P Regent Lane passengers would likely be really confused, would that perhaps help things out? Same with the 474. No because it just mights allocations tight and eventually buses end up on the wrong routes The 300 should have been renumbered but doubt that would happen because of the cost involved.
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Jan 3, 2022 10:12:18 GMT
I think any passenger number increases on the 63 will be negligible and the public won’t be fooled by the future bus project when they realise it isn’t actually improving the fundamental problems that exist on the bus network. It’s like slapping lipstick on a pig, you can tart it up but at the end of the day a pig is still a pig. One thing that would I suppose help is TFL actually listening to the public when they come out with consultations rather than just do the absolute opposite. I agree, for example 72% of respondents were against the 27 cutback, but it STILL WENT AHEAD! |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 3, 2022 11:09:52 GMT
One thing that would I suppose help is TFL actually listening to the public when they come out with consultations rather than just do the absolute opposite. I agree, for example 72% of respondents were against the 27 cutback, but it STILL WENT AHEAD! Consultations shouldn't be the be all and end all. TfL is a public body, chaired by a elected representative. Therefore in my mind it has enough of a mandate to push through the relevant changes. This is not a referenda democracy. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 3, 2022 11:11:56 GMT
1 or 2 more batches of Hydrogen buses being ordered. Caetano will unveil their London spec double decker, one order from Abellio Irizar trams for 358 delayed by up to a year London bus cuts continuing, including currently known reviews such as Putney, and new ones such as Croydon, Kingston etc. Overall PVR will decrease Fares increased, such as bus to £1.65 63 Customer Service Action Plan (or whatever it's called now) declared a success, and rolled out to more routes, but only on contracts announced towards end of year Would say cuts in outer areas like Croydon or Kingston, certainly on a bigger scale are very unlikely. More likely the odd minor trim here and there. Putney however? The axe is primed. Now based off current RPI+1% fare rises the bus fare should really be increased to £1.70 or so. Whether that will happen who knows. |
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 3, 2022 11:41:20 GMT
1 or 2 more batches of Hydrogen buses being ordered. Caetano will unveil their London spec double decker, one order from Abellio Irizar trams for 358 delayed by up to a year London bus cuts continuing, including currently known reviews such as Putney, and new ones such as Croydon, Kingston etc. Overall PVR will decrease Fares increased, such as bus to £1.65 63 Customer Service Action Plan (or whatever it's called now) declared a success, and rolled out to more routes, but only on contracts announced towards end of year Would say cuts in outer areas like Croydon or Kingston, certainly on a bigger scale are very unlikely. More likely the odd minor trim here and there. Putney however? The axe is primed. Now based off current RPI+1% fare rises the bus fare should really be increased to £1.70 or so. Whether that will happen who knows. I think that if there had been a small fares increase at the same time the Hopper Fare was introduced - say to £1.60 - it might have deterred some of the criticism at the time (although that would of course have been offset by criticism from people who did not benefit from Hopper Fare for their usual journey). It would have had only a very small effect on the Covid-19 funding crisis, but it would have left the bus network's finances more resilient to smaller shocks. Of course, the real answer is to fund public transport properly in this country as a service for public good, rather than treating it as a consumer product from which to make profits. The Conservatives under PM Johnson have been making the right noises, but given the Northern Powerhouse Rail débacle I am not expecting them to deliver. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 3, 2022 13:02:19 GMT
One thing that would I suppose help is TFL actually listening to the public when they come out with consultations rather than just do the absolute opposite. I think the south Newham changes will come back and bite TfL. I have seen some very decent loadings on the 262 from Beckton Sainsbury's towards Gallions Reach and Asda recently and really can't see the single decker 366 coping. The same with the 241 being diverted away from Canning Town! The 262 is being kept as far as Gallions Reach now which is some saving grace, but I'd rather nothing was changed in the first place. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 3, 2022 13:07:29 GMT
I think the south Newham changes will come back and bite TfL. I have seen some very decent loadings on the 262 from Beckton Sainsbury's towards Gallions Reach and Asda recently and really can't see the single decker 366 coping. The same with the 241 being diverted away from Canning Town! The 262 is being kept as far as Gallions Reach now which is some saving grace, but I'd rather nothing was changed in the first place. TfL is a public body that needs to operate as efficiently as possible. The South Newham area was addressed as having poorly utilised resources. This is taxpayers money we are talking about. It's absolutely right that changes are therefore proposed. Running circa 20bph along a corridor between Beckton and Gallons Reach that only requires 4bph is incredibly generous and even running 12 bph like proposed is very generous. But there's always something to moan about. And let's not forget the changes that are happening are going to save the taxpayer circa £1million pa. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 3, 2022 13:11:16 GMT
Would say cuts in outer areas like Croydon or Kingston, certainly on a bigger scale are very unlikely. More likely the odd minor trim here and there. Putney however? The axe is primed. Now based off current RPI+1% fare rises the bus fare should really be increased to £1.70 or so. Whether that will happen who knows. I think that if there had been a small fares increase at the same time the Hopper Fare was introduced - say to £1.60 - it might have deterred some of the criticism at the time (although that would of course have been offset by criticism from people who did not benefit from Hopper Fare for their usual journey). It would have had only a very small effect on the Covid-19 funding crisis, but it would have left the bus network's finances more resilient to smaller shocks. Of course, the real answer is to fund public transport properly in this country as a service for public good, rather than treating it as a consumer product from which to make profits. The Conservatives under PM Johnson have been making the right noises, but given the Northern Powerhouse Rail débacle I am not expecting them to deliver. My ideal scenario would have been that fares rose in line with inflation after 2016, but given there were a number of above inflation rises under the Johnson Mayoralty it was not a surprise that Khan pledged a fare frezze, and to his credit, kept to it fully. I think the RPI+1 rises are generally the right idea, but the wider sky-high RPI inflation rate we've got at present is obviously a concern as it'll lead to substantive rises. |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 13:15:22 GMT
The 262 is being kept as far as Gallions Reach now which is some saving grace, but I'd rather nothing was changed in the first place. TfL is a public body that needs to operate as efficiently as possible. The South Newham area was addressed as having poorly utilised resources. This is taxpayers money we are talking about. It's absolutely right that changes are therefore proposed. Running circa 20bph along a corridor between Beckton and Gallons Reach that only requires 4bph is incredibly generous and even running 12 bph like proposed is very generous. But there's always something to moan about. And let's not forget the changes that are happening are going to save the taxpayer circa £1million pa. Sorry but this forum really annoys me on occasions anything east London is always okay but anything anywhere else people are allowed to have a say or complain. Members should appreciate the type of people that live in Newham and how they uses buses as they often have no alternative. Too many experts looking at pretty charts. You are going by buses per hour that’s fine but you clearly don’t live local and haven’t observed the single decker 366 loading on a regular bases. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 3, 2022 13:17:44 GMT
To be honest I was going to think the 63s plan to be the complete opposite and to be declared a failure. Can't see people suddenly flocking en mass to the 63 just because suddenly there's a nice bus on it. It could be the perfect excuse for TfL to save money and actually say that doing all of this doesn't work and use it for future justification. I don't think that it will attract many people, but ridership will increase slightly above average, and implementing it on further routes will move TfL towards current times Bus ridership should increase in theory on all routes regardless, and due to changing patterns it will be very hard to determine what an average is. The 63 for example will not increase nearly as quick as some routes because it's a route which goes through the City which is an area full of office workers. I think the real question to ask is who this whole scheme on the 63 is aimed at. If it's getting people out of cars then good luck to them, my 10+ year old car that's ULEZ compliant is still miles ahead in terms of comfort and internal amenities than these brand new buses. I'd not ditch my car if we're just talking about comfort. However if I was in my car and I see a bus pelting it down on a bus lane, and reaches where I need to go far in advance of when I get there now we're talking. No matter what the state of the bus there, even if it's just the standard offering I'd take it. My time is valuable and I'm willing to sacrifice my amenities for that. If the bus is fast and has some nice amenities then it's a bonus, but if the bus is faster I'd just take it anyway. If you're aiming at pedestrians that don't currently use public transport then the amenities might persuade them a bit more than a car driver would, but then once again unless there's adequate bus priority then the pedestrians aren't going to care. Would anyone really want to get a bus just because it has a colourful screen at the front of it and then just get caught in a load of traffic? If someone is waiting to go from Elephant to Peckham, do you think someone would miss every single bus that comes their way and wait for a 63 specifically just because it's got a seat which is a bit taller than the ones on the 136 or 363? There's this false belief that increasing the spec of a bus will increase ridership, but Londoners are different. The city has many many alternative transport methods, it's very easy to get around on the car, and I don't take the bus long distance when the tube exists. Not to mention the tube is pretty much the same cost as the bus outside of Zone 1 in the peak now anyway. Time is what matters to people, people will trade comfort for time pretty much all the time. From an enthusiasts point of view it's easy to say a nice bus will attract people back because enthusiasts enjoy being on buses and don't see it as a waste of time, but the general public do and this is what needs to be seen. The aim for people is to spend as little time on a bus as possible. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 3, 2022 13:30:20 GMT
TfL is a public body that needs to operate as efficiently as possible. The South Newham area was addressed as having poorly utilised resources. This is taxpayers money we are talking about. It's absolutely right that changes are therefore proposed. Running circa 20bph along a corridor between Beckton and Gallons Reach that only requires 4bph is incredibly generous and even running 12 bph like proposed is very generous. But there's always something to moan about. And let's not forget the changes that are happening are going to save the taxpayer circa £1million pa. Sorry but this forum really annoys me on occasions anything east London is always okay but anything anywhere else people are allowed to have a say or complain. Members should appreciate the type of people that live in Newham and how they uses buses as they often have no alternative. Too many experts looking at pretty charts. You are going by buses per hour that’s fine but you clearly don’t live local and haven’t observed the single decker 366 loading on a regular bases. Not to mention that a lot of the users have a variety of destinations they go to. If the original proposals were followed through the only link East of Gallions Reach would be heading to Beckton Bus Station which is pretty much useless. Also worth noting that the 4bph capacity counts 4 deckers being loaded to the maximum capacity with people. That'd leave almost all 6 Single deckers on the 366 crowded solely between Gallions Reach and Beckton, not counting for anyone who wants to head to East Beckton, Barking, Ilford and the likes. Then people wonder why nobody uses the bus, oh and Gallions Reach has free parking for miles too! |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 3, 2022 13:32:47 GMT
I think the south Newham changes will come back and bite TfL. I have seen some very decent loadings on the 262 from Beckton Sainsbury's towards Gallions Reach and Asda recently and really can't see the single decker 366 coping. The same with the 241 being diverted away from Canning Town! The 262 is being kept as far as Gallions Reach now which is some saving grace, but I'd rather nothing was changed in the first place. Yes it is but still inconvenient for passengers from either Sainsburys or Gallions to have to change mid route depending where they are travelling too. I can understand cutting the 101 back but the 262 savings won’t be that great now. TfL has now idea it’s the same with the Elizabeth Line changes we will have 5 routes from Custom House Station to East Ham. |
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