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Post by enviroPB on Feb 12, 2022 12:13:51 GMT
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route. However the other question is where this demand is going. The N15 is a straight line into Central London, while the 145 goes around every nook and cranny of Dagenham before almost making it to Barking, diving down a load of side roads to Ilford before it's direct to Leytonstone. People in Dagenham that want a night link are unlikely to need to go to Leytonstone of all places. Not looking far down the road to Barking, you also have the 238N and EL1N running around in the area. The N15 is certainly more popular in Barking, but the 238 still carries crush loads (or at least did pre-pandemic) as that's a straight direct route to Stratford and doesn't tour around houses and goes to a major hub. The EL1N provides a link between two major town centres at night of which both have their share of shift workers. I'm sure an extension of the night 238 towards Dagenham would be greatly appreciated, but then all that'll happen is it parallels the N15 in, unless it goes down Upney Lane and follows the 287 to terminate at Rainham Tesco or the likes. Should there eventually be a night District line the dynamic will end up changing very quickly. The 145N all of a sudden could once again be very useful to commuters. Nobody wants to go to Leytonstone, you're right. The only way to have a successful night route in the area is to borne one anew instead of plucking a day route and giving it a few journeys at night. People on here advocate for the 174 to be 24 hours, but it's the same problem you've mentioned about where punters want to go. Not everyone's hitting the club at Romford, but shift workers would be forced there to change for a bus to central London. Why go further away from your travel objective just to board the bus? If TfL offered an alternative route then I wouldn't be so fervent on this. But as aforementioned, to start consulting on one of the most used weekend night routes is worrying. I guess we should be glad, likely other less used weekend night routes would likely get the chop without the chance of a say by the general public.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 13, 2022 11:07:44 GMT
I am a bit confused about the demand on the N145 maybe I read the report wrong but it suggested a average of 200 passengers a night? but you have seen standing loads? If the N145 is needed so much why was it only weekends? genuine question as surely there would be demand from workers etc other nights if Dagenham needs a night service?
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route. Dagenham one of the poorest parts of the country> ? Simply nonsense
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 13, 2022 11:30:16 GMT
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route. Dagenham one of the poorest parts of the country> ? Simply nonsense Is it?
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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 13, 2022 12:00:06 GMT
I am a bit confused about the demand on the N145 maybe I read the report wrong but it suggested a average of 200 passengers a night? but you have seen standing loads? If the N145 is needed so much why was it only weekends? genuine question as surely there would be demand from workers etc other nights if Dagenham needs a night service?
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route. I guess you're kind of saying what I'm thinking and that's that some services get very busy into the evening but once the last tubes have finished passenger numbers fall off a cliff. I think this is the reason why North London at night is so overbussed & has been long overdue a night review, some areas with no night bus like New Barnet and Highgate has 4. You could probably get rid of the N134/N271 with amendments made to other routes.
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 13, 2022 13:23:05 GMT
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route. I guess you're kind of saying what I'm thinking and that's that some services get very busy into the evening but once the last tubes have finished passenger numbers fall off a cliff. I think this is the reason why North London at night is so overbussed & has been long overdue a night review, some areas with no night bus like New Barnet and Highgate has 4. You could probably get rid of the N134/N271 with amendments made to other routes. Similar to how Carshalton and Wallington dosent have one at moment whereas Teddington has 3 up from just the N9 in 2000 and Thornton Heath to Croydon with the 64, 250, N68 and N109.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 13, 2022 13:32:14 GMT
I guess you're kind of saying what I'm thinking and that's that some services get very busy into the evening but once the last tubes have finished passenger numbers fall off a cliff. I think this is the reason why North London at night is so overbussed & has been long overdue a night review, some areas with no night bus like New Barnet and Highgate has 4. You could probably get rid of the N134/N271 with amendments made to other routes. Similar to how Carshalton and Wallington dosent have one at moment whereas Teddington has 3 up from just the N9 in 2000 and Thornton Heath to Croydon with the 64, 250, N68 and N109. I don’t think Thornton Heath is similar - the 64 only reaches Thornton Heath Pond, the N109 runs via London Road, doesn’t serve Thornton Heath and is the main night route along the A23, the 250 serves Thornton Heath & Green Lane whilst the N68 has its own corridor and only briefly pops through the edge of Thornton Heath. Now you might be able to argue about the 64 but the other three al have their rightful place. We need to get out of this mindset that we must rob Inner London all the time otherwise all your doing is reversing the two tier system
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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 13, 2022 15:12:31 GMT
Similar to how Carshalton and Wallington dosent have one at moment whereas Teddington has 3 up from just the N9 in 2000 and Thornton Heath to Croydon with the 64, 250, N68 and N109. I don’t think Thornton Heath is similar - the 64 only reaches Thornton Heath Pond, the N109 runs via London Road, doesn’t serve Thornton Heath and is the main night route along the A23, the 250 serves Thornton Heath & Green Lane whilst the N68 has its own corridor and only briefly pops through the edge of Thornton Heath. Now you might be able to argue about the 64 but the other three al have their rightful place. We need to get out of this mindset that we must rob Inner London all the time otherwise all your doing is reversing the two tier system As I know you’re local, would a 64/N250 merger be a good idea? It would obviously cut down on costs but is the TH to Croydon corridor busy at night?
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Post by greenboy on Feb 13, 2022 15:33:06 GMT
I guess you're kind of saying what I'm thinking and that's that some services get very busy into the evening but once the last tubes have finished passenger numbers fall off a cliff. I think this is the reason why North London at night is so overbussed & has been long overdue a night review, some areas with no night bus like New Barnet and Highgate has 4. You could probably get rid of the N134/N271 with amendments made to other routes. Similar to how Carshalton and Wallington dosent have one at moment whereas Teddington has 3 up from just the N9 in 2000 and Thornton Heath to Croydon with the 64, 250, N68 and N109. Yes and there are numerous examples of that, one area has an excessive night service and another area has none at all. A meger of the 64 and 250 at night would reduce over bussing between Croydon and TH.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 13, 2022 16:13:08 GMT
I don’t think Thornton Heath is similar - the 64 only reaches Thornton Heath Pond, the N109 runs via London Road, doesn’t serve Thornton Heath and is the main night route along the A23, the 250 serves Thornton Heath & Green Lane whilst the N68 has its own corridor and only briefly pops through the edge of Thornton Heath. Now you might be able to argue about the 64 but the other three al have their rightful place. We need to get out of this mindset that we must rob Inner London all the time otherwise all your doing is reversing the two tier system As I know you’re local, would a 64/N250 merger be a good idea? It would obviously cut down on costs but is the TH to Croydon corridor busy at night? There is nothing bad about the idea but it's rather unnecessary - the only reason the 64 at night continues beyond Croydon is because of Croydon Uni Hospital. The 250 is going to be the more used part because of the areas it goes through and the fact it connects to Brixton which has a night life scene whereas apparently Croydon has lot it's scene so I'd prefer they were separate.
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 13, 2022 18:35:39 GMT
As I know you’re local, would a 64/N250 merger be a good idea? It would obviously cut down on costs but is the TH to Croydon corridor busy at night? There is nothing bad about the idea but it's rather unnecessary - the only reason the 64 at night continues beyond Croydon is because of Croydon Uni Hospital. The 250 is going to be the more used part because of the areas it goes through and the fact it connects to Brixton which has a night life scene whereas apparently Croydon has lot it's scene so I'd prefer they were separate. Surely the reason the 64 continues to Thornton Heath Pond is because the day service does.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 13, 2022 18:43:46 GMT
There is nothing bad about the idea but it's rather unnecessary - the only reason the 64 at night continues beyond Croydon is because of Croydon Uni Hospital. The 250 is going to be the more used part because of the areas it goes through and the fact it connects to Brixton which has a night life scene whereas apparently Croydon has lot it's scene so I'd prefer they were separate. Surely the reason the 64 continues to Thornton Heath Pond is because the day service does. That maybe an element but it doesn't have to if TfL wish, see 27 where the N27 terminates before the 27 does. TfL could have a N64 from Croydon to New Addington instead so my feeling is the 64 survive as a 24 hour route solely for the hospital which TfL has made hospital links a priority over the last few years.
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Post by YX10FFN on Feb 13, 2022 19:08:10 GMT
I guess you're kind of saying what I'm thinking and that's that some services get very busy into the evening but once the last tubes have finished passenger numbers fall off a cliff. I think this is the reason why North London at night is so overbussed & has been long overdue a night review, some areas with no night bus like New Barnet and Highgate has 4. You could probably get rid of the N134/N271 with amendments made to other routes. Similar to how Carshalton and Wallington dosent have one at moment whereas Teddington has 3 up from just the N9 in 2000 and Thornton Heath to Croydon with the 64, 250, N68 and N109. Teddington just so happens to be served by two important cross-West London night corridors in their own right (281 and 285). With the 33 despite a quiet western end its night service exists as without it East Sheen is unserved. So each have a valid purpose.
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 14, 2022 8:36:45 GMT
Surely the reason the 64 continues to Thornton Heath Pond is because the day service does. That maybe an element but it doesn't have to if TfL wish, see 27 where the N27 terminates before the 27 does. TfL could have a N64 from Croydon to New Addington instead so my feeling is the 64 survive as a 24 hour route solely for the hospital which TfL has made hospital links a priority over the last few years. They could do an N64 from New Addington to Sutton, Marshalls Road if that was cheaper then a 24h 154.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 15, 2022 11:42:57 GMT
Dagenham one of the poorest parts of the country> ? Simply nonsense Is it?The jobs on offer, trouble is many who live there do not work there and likely to be working in the city, like many other suburban London boroughs. But it does not state that it is the poorest part of the UK
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 15, 2022 12:17:55 GMT
The jobs on offer, trouble is many who live there do not work there and likely to be working in the city, like many other suburban London boroughs. But it does not state that it is the poorest part of the UK It does however seem to be one of the poorest parts in London at least going by all of the stats.
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