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Post by matthieu1221 on Mar 29, 2023 14:21:15 GMT
To be honest, saying this as a bus enthusiast, any attempt of improving orbital public transport should have been done using rail transport as an alternative instead of bus travel. Far less prone to traffic which renders orbital routes impossible to implement or annoying to use, Implementing an orbital express cost is easier and less costly than even planning a new orbital rail line. The idea of the bus being used isn’t the issue - it’s the implementation that’s key such as robust priority and the consequences to existing routes on the orbital corridor If done well, it deserves a spot on the tube map (though it is already insanely crowded) though perhaps not with all stops shown. For a transport network which now forces intermodal transfers after many cuts, there's a lack of facilitation of that. I do hope that hopper (in an adapted form, say deducting the cost of the first journey from the second and subsequent within the hour rather than free transfers) will be extended to tube and rail one day though this'll likely not happen anytime soon. Would make the cuts to bus services a bit easier to swallow for those who need cheaper methods of transport.
Has there been any concrete commitment to bus priority?
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Post by TB123 on Mar 29, 2023 14:32:32 GMT
Implementing an orbital express cost is easier and less costly than even planning a new orbital rail line. The idea of the bus being used isn’t the issue - it’s the implementation that’s key such as robust priority and the consequences to existing routes on the orbital corridor If done well, it deserves a spot on the tube map (though it is already insanely crowded) though perhaps not with all stops shown. For a transport network which now forces intermodal transfers after many cuts, there's a lack of facilitation of that. I do hope that hopper (in an adapted form, say deducting the cost of the first journey from the second and subsequent within the hour rather than free transfers) will be extended to tube and rail one day though this'll likely not happen anytime soon. Would make the cuts to bus services a bit easier to swallow for those who need cheaper methods of transport.
Has there been any concrete commitment to bus priority?
[br Someone has done a mockup of it in the Tube/NR map |
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Post by twobellstogo on Mar 29, 2023 14:52:49 GMT
I know it will sound cynical but can’t help but think no thought went into the routes apart from the fact they form a loop. I wonder if we would have ended up with better routes if the branding wasn’t so focused on the loop. Can’t really speak for north of the river, where you will have far better knowledge than me (particularly of course out east), but the southern part of the Superloop seems to me to be the obvious choice - Bexleyheath round to Bromley and Croydon is what most local people would consider to be the link to have, and of course therr is the current X26 in the west. I should think little/nothing would need to be done to the current 119, but the current routes between Bexleyheath and Sidcup would need looking at in some way as parts of that network would be rather over bussed, as neither the 229 nor the 269 are particularly strong performers south of Bexleyheath to Sidcup now. How you’d solve that conundrum? I’ll think! |
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Post by bustavane on Mar 29, 2023 14:54:22 GMT
And here comes the issue I was referring to - what happens to those who don't require one of those stops you've listed on their journey? They end up with a worse service because they now have a 15 minute service to rely on and may actually end up looking for an alternative like Uber for example, that as a consequence, also bypasses using the express route. <snip> The route would still exist but probably at a lower frequency in addition the fact it is now being trimmed to Bexleyheath Library I would expect if this X269 is introduced it to become Low Frequency. The route is very quiet off peak and waiting an extra 3 minutes is not an issue it was over bussed when it ran every 10 if it was reduced to every 30 minutes then something can be said. In fact the evening service of every 20 minutes should become every 30 as it is very quiet. On the few occasions I have used the 269 in the evening, I have found the service poor; reduce it to every 30 and I'd not bother and get an Uber instead (even though I've got free travel). |
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Post by londonbuses on Mar 29, 2023 15:09:34 GMT
Someone has done a mockup of it in the Tube/NR map Seeing that makes me wonder if part of TfL's plan for the Superloop is to include it on the tube map and the tube and rail map. It would add hundreds of new connections, and would make both locals who know little about buses and also tourists more aware of the routes. It would make connections that are easier by bus than rail more well known (such as Heathrow to Kingston on the X26) and would add a few places that have no train or tube station onto the map (such as North Cheam). |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 29, 2023 15:10:41 GMT
Implementing an orbital express cost is easier and less costly than even planning a new orbital rail line. The idea of the bus being used isn’t the issue - it’s the implementation that’s key such as robust priority and the consequences to existing routes on the orbital corridor If done well, it deserves a spot on the tube map (though it is already insanely crowded) though perhaps not with all stops shown. For a transport network which now forces intermodal transfers after many cuts, there's a lack of facilitation of that. I do hope that hopper (in an adapted form, say deducting the cost of the first journey from the second and subsequent within the hour rather than free transfers) will be extended to tube and rail one day though this'll likely not happen anytime soon. Would make the cuts to bus services a bit easier to swallow for those who need cheaper methods of transport.
Has there been any concrete commitment to bus priority?
the super loop isn't a train network so I don't see why it should go in the tube map. Perhaps Thameslink could be removed from the tube map, it's not a tube line and there's not enough space. I don't see why it's so special in comparison to other railway lines. |
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Post by wirewiper on Mar 29, 2023 15:54:19 GMT
I know it will sound cynical but can’t help but think no thought went into the routes apart from the fact they form a loop. I wonder if we would have ended up with better routes if the branding wasn’t so focused on the loop. Can’t really speak for north of the river, where you will have far better knowledge than me (particularly of course out east), but the southern part of the Superloop seems to me to be the obvious choice - Bexleyheath round to Bromley and Croydon is what most local people would consider to be the link to have, and of course therr is the current X26 in the west. I should think little/nothing would need to be done to the current 119, but the current routes between Bexleyheath and Sidcup would need looking at in some way as parts of that network would be rather over bussed, as neither the 229 nor the 269 are particularly strong performers south of Bexleyheath to Sidcup now. How you’d solve that conundrum? I’ll think! Here's a possible scenario (emphasise - possible): the 269 simply morphs into the X269 with limited stops where it is paralleled by the 162 and 229, and serving all stops on the freehold section. Judging by some of the comments above, a number of the route 269 stops are lightly used anyway and could be left to the other services. I've already speculated that a Bromley-Croydon express route would not follow the 119, but would be pretty much like the old 725/726 route via Shortlands, Beckenham and Elmers End. This would of course restrict it to single-deck operation, if it were to be double-deck it could operate via Park Langley but this would add to the journey time. |
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Post by londonbuses on Mar 29, 2023 15:57:18 GMT
I'd suggest this for a SE London orbital route:
X25 or X29 West Croydon to Bluewater
Stops at West Croydon, East Croydon, Shirley Library, West Wickham High Street, Hayes Station, Bromley South, Bromley Town Centre, Bickley, Chislehurst Station, Chislehurst War Memorial, Queen Mary Hospital, Sidcup Town Centre, Sidcup Station, Albany Park, Bexley, Dartford, Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 29, 2023 16:01:48 GMT
And here comes the issue I was referring to - what happens to those who don't require one of those stops you've listed on their journey? They end up with a worse service because they now have a 15 minute service to rely on and may actually end up looking for an alternative like Uber for example, that as a consequence, also bypasses using the express route. You always mention this in relation to any route to be fair. The way passengers travel on buses has changed a lot and the way I see it TFL are actually attempting to try newer things. The route would still exist but probably at a lower frequency in addition the fact it is now being trimmed to Bexleyheath Library I would expect if this X269 is introduced it to become Low Frequency. The route is very quiet off peak and waiting an extra 3 minutes is not an issue it was over bussed when it ran every 10 if it was reduced to every 30 minutes then something can be said. In fact the evening service of every 20 minutes should become every 30 as it is very quiet. The 229 on the other hand even though it has nothing to do with this is a very busy service stopping at pretty much every stop the 269 is not. The 211 has been mentioned a few times too. It certainly does need to link Battersea Power Station. I say this every time because it's clear in a number of these frequency cuts that demand hasn't increased and more likely has dropped as a result. It might be an extra three minutes to me or you but to some, it's the line between waiting those 3 minutes or getting something alternative like Uber and saving them time overall given Uber is meant to be point to point. So actually, you could end up trading those who the express route is being aimed at which seems more towards the ULEZ scheme and getting people out of their cars for existing customers who may get annoyed their normal route drops to low frequency and seek alternatives as a result. Whether you agree with me or not, it's something that shouldn't be just dismissed and should be thought about carefully. I'm confused what the 211 has to do with express routes? |
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Post by vjaska on Mar 29, 2023 16:06:45 GMT
And here comes the issue I was referring to - what happens to those who don't require one of those stops you've listed on their journey? They end up with a worse service because they now have a 15 minute service to rely on and may actually end up looking for an alternative like Uber for example, that as a consequence, also bypasses using the express route. Especially if the routes are like the X26 which can go miles without stopping. If like the 607 then it's not so bad as when I travel on the routes it generally seems like it skips every 3 to 4 207/427 stops. Whereas the X26 can be atleast 2 miles between Worcester Park and New Malden and another 2 miles atleats to Kingston etc. The X26 at least has frequent routes following it for the most part, same with the 607 so those not requiring the fast option, don't have too long to wait |
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Post by WH241 on Mar 29, 2023 16:48:57 GMT
I'm giving my take on this on the East London variant anyway. The Royal Docks to Walthamstow route can go either very well or very poorly. It's all going to come down to the route it's taking. The general assumption is the A406 will be the route but we can't be for certain until we see any official map, which could be a few years away. Judging by the Elizabeth Line symbol, the term 'Royal docks' either means Custom House or North Woolwich. The presence of a river roundel confuses me, Custom House isn't near the river so it could be North Woolwich instead, which is walking distance from Woolwich Elizabeth Line Station. Assuming it's Custom House, the route will need to get to Ilford. There's two ways to do this, following the 474 route to Gallions Reach and then bombing it up the North Circular, it'll probably be relatively easy to put a stop at Barking Tesco but as mentioned a few pages back getting this done at Ilford will be total manic due to that road layout if it needs to double run and pick the North Circular up again. A way around this would be to stop at Ilford Hill, then follow the 123 the rest of the way. There is the additional option of coming off at Barking and following the 169 to Ilford in order to stop in Barking Town Centre, which looking at articles the main intention is to stop at Town Centres. The other alternative route would be to follow the 147 to Ilford from Custom House, then follow the 123. Whether Custom House needs *another* link to East Ham is another topic entirely though. But that said the 147 would be a very off route to try to run a parallel express service to due to the tight roads it serves. Surely not via the 147. Based on the 129 and the Silvertown consultation, which was published yesterday, it could be Custom House as with the tunnel, North Greenwich pier is close enough. Although they would have advertised the Cable Car image and they would take any chance to do that. The housing developments make it likely it is Custom House rather than North Woolwich. If the 129 and this bus comes in, I suspect that the 473 could be in line for the chop here. If it is Custom House then the stand will be a issue as I mentioned yesterday. I agree with what you say about traveling via the 147 route as that would be anything but express 
I do think Eastlondoner62 could be onto something with the terminal being North Woolwich as this would then form the loop via the ferry or foot tunnel. |
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 29, 2023 16:57:51 GMT
You always mention this in relation to any route to be fair. The way passengers travel on buses has changed a lot and the way I see it TFL are actually attempting to try newer things. The route would still exist but probably at a lower frequency in addition the fact it is now being trimmed to Bexleyheath Library I would expect if this X269 is introduced it to become Low Frequency. The route is very quiet off peak and waiting an extra 3 minutes is not an issue it was over bussed when it ran every 10 if it was reduced to every 30 minutes then something can be said. In fact the evening service of every 20 minutes should become every 30 as it is very quiet. The 229 on the other hand even though it has nothing to do with this is a very busy service stopping at pretty much every stop the 269 is not. The 211 has been mentioned a few times too. It certainly does need to link Battersea Power Station. I say this every time because it's clear in a number of these frequency cuts that demand hasn't increased and more likely has dropped as a result. It might be an extra three minutes to me or you but to some, it's the line between waiting those 3 minutes or getting something alternative like Uber and saving them time overall given Uber is meant to be point to point. So actually, you could end up trading those who the express route is being aimed at which seems more towards the ULEZ scheme and getting people out of their cars for existing customers who may get annoyed their normal route drops to low frequency and seek alternatives as a result. Whether you agree with me or not, it's something that shouldn't be just dismissed and should be thought about carefully. I'm confused what the 211 has to do with express routes? You many not agree with me that is fine however the 269 is mainly 30 Roads so an express would be quite popular as I have said. The route itself at certain times of the day can be sitting at bus stops to even out the service, it is only heavily used during peak hours so if this plan ever does go ahead 4 buses per hour can be justified. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Mar 29, 2023 17:10:59 GMT
With various different ideas being suggested for the superloop - if the budget were to be available in the future, perhaps it might be a good idea to expand the network into two separate orbital corridors around London?
The outer loop could consist of the X26/X140 and proposed Bexleyheath-Bromley-Croydon sections, but with the routes east of Harrow pushed slightly further out. Perhaps via Edgware, Enfield and Chingford as some have suggested, then continuing eastwards roughly following the 179 and EL1?
Could even extend the Bexleyheath route to Thamesmead, with a ferry service introduced connecting to Barking Riverside for cross-river journeys? Particularly as any kind of rail link here is unlikely to happen any time soon, and with a pier recently opened at Barking.
An inner loop could then cover something along the following lines:
Ealing - Wembley - Brent Cross - Wood Green - Walthamstow - Stratford - Royal Docks - Silvertown Tunnel - North Greenwich - Lewisham - Catford - Crystal Palace - Streatham - Wimbledon - Richmond - Ealing
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Post by SILENCED on Mar 29, 2023 17:41:06 GMT
With various different ideas being suggested for the superloop - if the budget were to be available in the future, perhaps it might be a good idea to expand the network into two separate orbital corridors around London? The outer loop could consist of the X26/X140 and proposed Bexleyheath-Bromley-Croydon sections, but with the routes east of Harrow pushed slightly further out. Perhaps via Edgware, Enfield and Chingford as some have suggested, then continuing eastwards roughly following the 179 and EL1? Could even extend the Bexleyheath route to Thamesmead, with a ferry service introduced connecting to Barking Riverside for cross-river journeys? Particularly as any kind of rail link here is unlikely to happen any time soon, and with a pier recently opened at Barking. An inner loop could then cover something along the following lines: Ealing - Wembley - Brent Cross - Wood Green - Walthamstow - Stratford - Royal Docks - Silvertown Tunnel - North Greenwich - Lewisham - Catford - Crystal Palace - Streatham - Wimbledon - Richmond - Ealing Have a few more and we could call them ringways! |
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Post by greenboy on Mar 29, 2023 17:44:57 GMT
I know it will sound cynical but can’t help but think no thought went into the routes apart from the fact they form a loop. I wonder if we would have ended up with better routes if the branding wasn’t so focused on the loop. Can’t really speak for north of the river, where you will have far better knowledge than me (particularly of course out east), but the southern part of the Superloop seems to me to be the obvious choice - Bexleyheath round to Bromley and Croydon is what most local people would consider to be the link to have, and of course therr is the current X26 in the west. I should think little/nothing would need to be done to the current 119, but the current routes between Bexleyheath and Sidcup would need looking at in some way as parts of that network would be rather over bussed, as neither the 229 nor the 269 are particularly strong performers south of Bexleyheath to Sidcup now. How you’d solve that conundrum? I’ll think! I think Bexleyheath to Sidcup has been overbussed since the 229 was altered and the 269 introduced in the 70s, maybe just alternate buses on the 229 between Bexleyheath and Queen Mary's? |
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