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Post by ADH45258 on May 11, 2022 11:24:18 GMT
People talk about Thamesmead having no rail links yet Thamesmead is a quick 5min bus ride to Abbey Wood Station, this can also be seen with the 472 extension to Abbey Wood. Harold Hill is also like Thamesmead but worse off I feel as to get to Harold Wood Station is a 15min bus ride and a 25min to Romford Station Do you know how big Thamesmead is? It borders Erith & Belvedere in the east and Woolwich in the west, so depending on which bit of Thamesmead you live in Abbey Wood station can be more than ten minutes by bus. Thamesmead wasn’t built as a standard 1960s estate it was planned and built as being a town in its own right, as part of the plans it was to get a new river crossing to Barking and eventually be connected to the tube in the original Fleet line plans but those never happened All of Thamesmead is within reach of Abbey Wood Station by bus for passengers wanting to use the Elizabeth Line. But where Abbey Wood is further by bus, there are also connections to Woolwich, Plumstead, Belvedere and Erith stations. I think this is also the issue with suggesting to have a railway directly a serving Thamesmead - you would need a number of stations to satisfy everyone. |
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Post by ADH45258 on May 11, 2022 11:33:20 GMT
You don't adapt when people don't actually want to travel by bus from Thamesmead to Lewisham. Beliieve it or not there is a shopping centre in Thamesmead. I went shopping there today. There are significant adaptions to the local network happening on Saturday plus the previously introduced 301. You really think nobody wants to go from Lewisham to Thamesmead or vice versa? I doubt there would be much demand, and for anyone making that journey, taking the bus would take a while. The quickest route would probably be a bus to Abbey Wood then a southeastern train direct to Lewisham. Or when Crossrail is open, changing at Canary Wharf for the DLR to Lewisham. Even if a bus route were to be extended from Woolwich, something else would likely need to be cut back (such as the 177) to avoid having excess capacity on that section. While the 178 has been suggested, it's not that direct. I think the best option for a bus link would be a split of route 54 - the 129 or 199 could be extended onwards from Lewisham/Bellingham to Elmers End - then a revised 54 could operate between Lewisham and Thamesmead. Plus the 177 reduced to Peckham-Woolwich. But as above, I'm not sure it would be worth such changes when the hopper fare and train alternatives are available for that journey. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 11:36:07 GMT
I don't. There are still 2 direct routes from Woolwich to Lewisham after next weekend. (54 and 122.) There is also the 380 which runs from Belmarsh via Thamesmead West. As I said if real demand is found in travel data a link would be provided. This why bus travel is declining, a network that fails to adapt. As you rightly point out earlier, the bus network is being starved of funding - and appears to have been at the bottom of political priorities for at least six years - so of course it's going to fail to adapt. As for Thamesmead to Lewisham...in the 180, it seems very odd to cut a link that's served the lower part of Thamesmead since the town's first residents moved in more than half a century ago. It certainly feels a like a loss, but don't know if the data supports it - patronage may well have withered away over the years with traffic congestion so shelling out for the train may be a better bet. |
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Post by busman on May 11, 2022 11:43:50 GMT
The 301 has been welcomed by locals from all accounts I've read or heard and your proposing to cut some of it back in favour of meddling with a long established route like the 122? Yeah. We like the 301 😃 Yep, fantastic route. Best thing about it other than the general speediness into Abbey Wood and through Thamesmead is the new passengers it has attracted through the Long Lane and Brampton Road areas. Arriva seem to be doing an excellent job running the route too. I haven’t seen official stats, but buses rarely run close to each other and there are very few curtailments. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 11:57:25 GMT
I like the 178 idea, but I’d also keep the 180 as it is as well, Lewisham is going to be a bit of a draw for many in the coming years with all the new developments going on there. It’s a pity Woolwich isn’t have the same rebirth, Woolwich has a lot of potential of restoring itself. Woolwich has more housing development than Lewisham. It's getting a new leisure centre as the previous one has been sold by the council for more tower blocks. The same council has no plans to develop the retail area. More money is about to be spent on the market area. I don't have the figures, but I suspect Lewisham won't be that far behind Woolwich in terms of housing numbers. Woolwich has more land but is slightly constrained by a restriction on heights because of City Airport. - There's about another 900 homes coming to Lewisham in the short term (Lewisham Gateway phase 2 and the 34-storey tower in the Tesco car park) while you've still got the shopping centre (at least 1,500 new homes) and the remaining retail park still in play. - In the next 6/7 years Woolwich will get the Woolwich Exchange development around the covered market plus the new leisure centre development on the old Wiko site (nearly 1,300 homes between them), plus Berkeley hasn't finished on the Arsenal yet (another 500 homes above the Crossrail station). Plus the Island Site (opposite the council offices) has permission for 300 more. Long-term, the Waterfront Leisure Centre site will come into play (it hasn't been sold yet), and something will end up being approved for the Furlongs site opposite. Woolwich's big problem is that Greenwich Council doesn't own the town centre - it's in the hands of British Land, who don't seem all that interested in anything beyond collecting rent. Greenwich's strategy has been to lob money at cultural things (Woolwich Works, which cost a cool £40m) to put Woolwich on the map for visitors, but how much that'll benefit the town centre remains to be seen. Lewisham sold its shopping centre years ago, but LandSec at least shows an interest in the area. |
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Post by route53 on May 11, 2022 12:04:57 GMT
This why bus travel is declining, a network that fails to adapt. As you rightly point out earlier, the bus network is being starved of funding - and appears to have been at the bottom of political priorities for at least six years - so of course it's going to fail to adapt. As for Thamesmead to Lewisham...in the 180, it seems very odd to cut a link that's served the lower part of Thamesmead since the town's first residents moved in more than half a century ago. It certainly feels a like a loss, but don't know if the data supports it - patronage may well have withered away over the years with traffic congestion so shelling out for the train may be a better bet. The Lewisham train from Abbey Wood is 2tph and the fares are generally more expensive than the bus fares. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 12:07:32 GMT
People talk about Thamesmead having no rail links yet Thamesmead is a quick 5min bus ride to Abbey Wood Station, this can also be seen with the 472 extension to Abbey Wood. Harold Hill is also like Thamesmead but worse off I feel as to get to Harold Wood Station is a 15min bus ride and a 25min to Romford Station Do you know how big Thamesmead is? It borders Erith & Belvedere in the east and Woolwich in the west, so depending on which bit of Thamesmead you live in Abbey Wood station can be more than ten minutes by bus. Thamesmead wasn’t built as a standard 1960s estate it was planned and built as being a town in its own right, as part of the plans it was to get a new river crossing to Barking and eventually be connected to the tube in the original Fleet line plans but those never happened This really can't be emphasised enough. We're not talking about an estate that's fine minutes' walk from Abbey Wood station, it's a huge district of its own that - thanks to historic failings and a lack of current interest - will never get the public transport it deserves, which is why it needs a credible and fast bus network. Also worth emphasising that the only reason Thamesmead is meant to be getting the DLR is not to serve current residents, but for the 11,500-home (that's not a typo) Thamesmead Waterfront development coming to the west of the town centre. |
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Post by greenboy on May 11, 2022 12:10:08 GMT
You really think nobody wants to go from Lewisham to Thamesmead or vice versa? I doubt there would be much demand, and for anyone making that journey, taking the bus would take a while. The quickest route would probably be a bus to Abbey Wood then a southeastern train direct to Lewisham. Or when Crossrail is open, changing at Canary Wharf for the DLR to Lewisham. Even if a bus route were to be extended from Woolwich, something else would likely need to be cut back (such as the 177) to avoid having excess capacity on that section. While the 178 has been suggested, it's not that direct. I think the best option for a bus link would be a split of route 54 - the 129 or 199 could be extended onwards from Lewisham/Bellingham to Elmers End - then a revised 54 could operate between Lewisham and Thamesmead. Plus the 177 reduced to Peckham-Woolwich. But as above, I'm not sure it would be worth such changes when the hopper fare and train alternatives are available for that journey. I would suggest Thamesmead to Lewisham is an obvious missing link, that and Bexleyheath are the nearest decent shopping centres (I don't think many people would class Woolwich as such) and even with the change to the B11 Bexleyheath still has three routes to Thamesmead whilst Lewisham is losing the 180. Even with the move to online shopping there are still many other reasons why Thamesmead residents might want to get to Lewisham. Obviously there would have to be changes to other routes, nothing comes for free nowadays, but the hopper fare argument could be applied to any direct link. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 12:15:16 GMT
As you rightly point out earlier, the bus network is being starved of funding - and appears to have been at the bottom of political priorities for at least six years - so of course it's going to fail to adapt. As for Thamesmead to Lewisham...in the 180, it seems very odd to cut a link that's served the lower part of Thamesmead since the town's first residents moved in more than half a century ago. It certainly feels a like a loss, but don't know if the data supports it - patronage may well have withered away over the years with traffic congestion so shelling out for the train may be a better bet. The Lewisham train from Abbey Wood is 2tph and the fares are generally more expensive than the bus fares. It's a crap train service, though changing at Greenwich for the DLR does give you an alternative. (Even Canary Wharf on the Liz Line gives you another option, albeit at a z2-4 fare.) Stuff like this is why a rezoning of rail fares would be very useful in trying to give Thamesmead the transport it needs to thrive. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 12:39:16 GMT
Even curtailing the 122 to Brockley Rise might make the 122 a bit too long with the Thamesmead extension, plus the 180 to Lewisham is much quicker than the 122 would be from Thamesmead. The 301 I would extend to Charlton Retail Park which I think is in the cards anyway. TfL refused the offer from the property developer of the Retail Park to include a bus stand. There is nowhere for buses to stand. The possible 301 extension is dependent on a new dual carriageway through the new Charlton Riverside housing development where it would terminate. For those unfamiliar with the area, what happened on the Charlton Riverside was that LXB, the developer that built the Sainsbury's/M&S behemoth, offered to pay for an extension of the 202 from Blackheath Standard. That Sainsbury's was a relocation of the "eco" supermarket which was replaced by Greenwich Ikea, and there was a worry that people from Blackheath wouldn't be able to reach the relocated supermarket. TfL declined the offer, and people in Blackheath are still without a link to those shops. This would have been about 9/10 years ago. That idea probably influenced the early plan for the 335 to go down Charlton Church Lane. Fast forward a very long time, and a couple of months ago Hyde housing association won approval for a development half a mile away by the Thames Barrier - Herringham Quarter. As part of that, there will be a space put in for a bus terminal (likely to be the 301) and as part of the wider riverside plan a dual carriageway will be driven through towards Anchor & Hope Lane. At present, though, the proposed 301 terminal is not convenient for the retail parks and a through route is unlikely to reach them for several years to come. |
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Post by rift on May 11, 2022 16:24:58 GMT
The Lewisham train from Abbey Wood is 2tph and the fares are generally more expensive than the bus fares. It's a crap train service, though changing at Greenwich for the DLR does give you an alternative. (Even Canary Wharf on the Liz Line gives you another option, albeit at a z2-4 fare.) Stuff like this is why a rezoning of rail fares would be very useful in trying to give Thamesmead the transport it needs to thrive. Not to mention that these fares are likely a challenge to low-income households, which is a big part of Thamesmead’s population. |
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Post by route53 on May 11, 2022 18:06:42 GMT
The Lewisham train from Abbey Wood is 2tph and the fares are generally more expensive than the bus fares. It's a crap train service, though changing at Greenwich for the DLR does give you an alternative. (Even Canary Wharf on the Liz Line gives you another option, albeit at a z2-4 fare.) Stuff like this is why a rezoning of rail fares would be very useful in trying to give Thamesmead the transport it needs to thrive. The zones definitely need an overhaul, the central areas has expanded eastwards in recent years with the growth of the Docklands, Stratford and Lewisham. Greenwich and Lewisham should be flat out zone 2, same with Blackheath, while Woolwich and Plumstead should be in zone 3 |
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Post by route53 on May 11, 2022 18:09:57 GMT
It's a crap train service, though changing at Greenwich for the DLR does give you an alternative. (Even Canary Wharf on the Liz Line gives you another option, albeit at a z2-4 fare.) Stuff like this is why a rezoning of rail fares would be very useful in trying to give Thamesmead the transport it needs to thrive. Not to mention that these fares are likely a challenge to low-income households, which is a big part of Thamesmead’s population. Indeed, which is why buses in my view are key to solving Thamesmead’s isolation issue, including express routes. |
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Post by twobellstogo on May 11, 2022 19:02:30 GMT
It's a crap train service, though changing at Greenwich for the DLR does give you an alternative. (Even Canary Wharf on the Liz Line gives you another option, albeit at a z2-4 fare.) Stuff like this is why a rezoning of rail fares would be very useful in trying to give Thamesmead the transport it needs to thrive. The zones definitely need an overhaul, the central areas has expanded eastwards in recent years with the growth of the Docklands, Stratford and Lewisham. Greenwich and Lewisham should be flat out zone 2, same with Blackheath, while Woolwich and Plumstead should be in zone 3 The one that really bothers me is Woolwich Dockyard and Woolwich Arsenal not being in the same zone - at the very least Arsenal should be zone 3 as well as 4. Plenty of other things not right with zones right across London imo but that’s for another thread. |
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Post by ADH45258 on May 11, 2022 19:09:43 GMT
It's a crap train service, though changing at Greenwich for the DLR does give you an alternative. (Even Canary Wharf on the Liz Line gives you another option, albeit at a z2-4 fare.) Stuff like this is why a rezoning of rail fares would be very useful in trying to give Thamesmead the transport it needs to thrive. The zones definitely need an overhaul, the central areas has expanded eastwards in recent years with the growth of the Docklands, Stratford and Lewisham. Greenwich and Lewisham should be flat out zone 2, same with Blackheath, while Woolwich and Plumstead should be in zone 3 Another issue with zone inconsistency is around the Greater London border. For example, Epping is in Zone 6, while many stations much closer to Central London are in zones 7+ Or in the Watford area, the most popular station (Watford Junction - with 15 min journey time into Euston) has special fares, the next few stops on the Overground are in zone 8. Meanwhile on the Met Line, Watford/Rickmansworth/Chorleywood are only in zone 7. Many passengers instead opt to take the bus or drive to somewhere like Stanmore for cheaper fares. I'm sure there's plenty more examples of this - North Greenwich is often mentioned as an alternative to Southeastern stations in the Woolwich area. Also another issue is oyster acceptance at stations around the border where no services are run by TFL. Somewhere like Hertford East accepts oyster, but not Denham, Esher, Sunbury or Staines (all of which are served by TFL bus routes). |
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