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Post by wirewiper on Apr 20, 2022 12:41:59 GMT
I’ve often thought of rerouting the 161 to Thamesmead to crest a north-south Greenwich borough link between there and Eltham but not sure if the demand is there for such a change to occur other than it would be a used link I've often wondered about that too. More from a Woolwich perspective than anything else - you can get a bus to Lewisham from most parts of that borough, and the same applies to Bexleyheath, but Woolwich's sole link with the south of Greenwich borough is the wiggly 161 via the hospital. There's potential to fix a couple of holes if anyone cared enough about those places to spend the money. The 161 isn't that wiggly. Admittedly it used to run direct via Academy Road (same as 122 route) but it was obviously felt that the diversion to take in Queen Elizabeth Hospital was worthwhile. I'd say it adds no more than five minutes to the journey and gives a large catchment area direct access to the Hospital. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Apr 20, 2022 12:49:33 GMT
As for the H&C extension to Thamesmead, wasn’t this suggested but shot down due to it involving demolition and major rebuilding? Maybe - I really don't know. And I really don't know Barking at all so maybe I'm talking out of my hat. But... we've just blown £19 billion and smashed up a chunk of the West End to build a railway that, in SE London, stops short of places where it could make a real difference. If a rebuilding job in Barking town centre holds us back from something that would transform regeneration schemes in both Barking Riverside and Thamesmead, never mind vastly improving the lives of the 40,000 people currently living in Thamesmead and Abbey Wood, then something seems seriously out of whack. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Apr 20, 2022 12:53:11 GMT
I've often wondered about that too. More from a Woolwich perspective than anything else - you can get a bus to Lewisham from most parts of that borough, and the same applies to Bexleyheath, but Woolwich's sole link with the south of Greenwich borough is the wiggly 161 via the hospital. There's potential to fix a couple of holes if anyone cared enough about those places to spend the money. The 161 isn't that wiggly. Admittedly it used to run direct via Academy Road (same as 122 route) but it was obviously felt that the diversion to take in Queen Elizabeth Hospital was worthwhile. I'd say it adds no more than five minutes to the journey and gives a large catchment area direct access to the Hospital. The queue up to the lights at Shooters Hill Road/ Well Hall Road is often five minutes alone, unfortunately. And that's punishing people who choose to/need to use the bus between those two major locations. That's not to say a Woolwich-QEH-Eltham link of some sort isn't needed - it clearly is from the numbers who use those stops - but the loss of a faster service is the kind of thing that puts people off bus travel. |
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Post by cl54 on Apr 20, 2022 18:37:12 GMT
If the original Fleet Line went to Thamesmead as intended, it would've been a game changer for the area. I would say that Crossrail to Abbey Wood was the trade off, although not perfect? IF DLR arrived at Woolwich Arsenal from a Easterly direction instead of from the West, it would be an ideal candidate to extend to Plumstead, Belmarsh Prison, Gallons Reach and onto several stops around Thmesmead. Especially that Crossrail is expected to take passengers away from DLR at Woolwich. The DLR has a vent shaft by the river at the end of the Royal Arsenal development. I think there was passive provision for DLR branch to the east at this point. There was passive provision for the Jubilee line to be extended eastwards from North Greenwich via a new junction. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 20, 2022 18:44:30 GMT
The 161 isn't that wiggly. Admittedly it used to run direct via Academy Road (same as 122 route) but it was obviously felt that the diversion to take in Queen Elizabeth Hospital was worthwhile. I'd say it adds no more than five minutes to the journey and gives a large catchment area direct access to the Hospital. The queue up to the lights at Shooters Hill Road/ Well Hall Road is often five minutes alone, unfortunately. And that's punishing people who choose to/need to use the bus between those two major locations. That's not to say a Woolwich-QEH-Eltham link of some sort isn't needed - it clearly is from the numbers who use those stops - but the loss of a faster service is the kind of thing that puts people off bus travel. The 126 to Woolwich is late and lamented by me : if only it could return - either as was (direct via Academy Road), or via QEH to release the 161 from that task. |
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Post by ronnie on Apr 20, 2022 20:48:46 GMT
I think Thames Clippers are planning on introducing a pier at Barking Riverside and extending services from Woolwich. Perhaps a pier could also be added at Thamesmead, with passengers able to use the boats as a shuttle? More generally, there is definitely a lot more potential in river-based public transport, especially towards the east where there are fewer river crossings. Definitely a much cheaper option, at least in the short term, and could instantly provide new links across the river, other than having to introduce some additional piers. However, for river travel to be a success, the main concern is that fares need to come down. For example, the pedestrian bridge between Rotherhithe and Canary Wharf has now been cancelled - but there is a ferry shuttle service in place at the same location. However, the cost to use it means that many passengers would opt for the more complicated and slower route of taking a bus to Canada Water then one stop on the tube. Thames Clippers did also recently trial a service going further out of London as far as Gravesend. This could potentially work as a permanent route, but only if more stops are added - such as at Grays, Greenhithe, Erith, Thamesmead and Barking Riverside. You can see Thamesmead from the platforms at Barking Riverside. It's insane. Anyway, here's Thames Clippers at Barking Riverside, from the horse's mouth: www.thamesclippers.com/plan-your-journey/find-your-pier/barking-riverside-pierHistorically, the trouble with the riverboats is that each pier had a very small catchment area - but that's changing with so many riverside developments. The Thames Barrier is also an issue, but if that's closed at least there would be a, um, boat replacement train in the form of the Elizabeth Line from Woolwich or Canary Wharf - if we had a Hamburg-style integrated system, which we don't. The other big problem is that boats are expensive to run. They get subsidy to help kickstart developments (think City Hall have have helped fund boats to Woolwich, it's certainly subsidising the Barking ones), but not the day-to-day subsidy that buses get because of the cost. Twelve years ago, the right-leaning think tank Policy Exchange recommended fully integrating the boats into the TfL system in this report: policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/at-a-rate-of-knots-improving-public-transport-on-the-river-thames-web-jan-10.pdf It seemed a bit niche then, but a decade on, I think that idea's time has come. Nobody wants to spend the money, though. I’m flabbergasted why no one thought of the overground being extended to thamesmead? It’s literally so close …. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Apr 21, 2022 1:09:17 GMT
If the original Fleet Line went to Thamesmead as intended, it would've been a game changer for the area. I would say that Crossrail to Abbey Wood was the trade off, although not perfect? IF DLR arrived at Woolwich Arsenal from a Easterly direction instead of from the West, it would be an ideal candidate to extend to Plumstead, Belmarsh Prison, Gallons Reach and onto several stops around Thmesmead. Especially that Crossrail is expected to take passengers away from DLR at Woolwich. The DLR has a vent shaft by the river at the end of the Royal Arsenal development. I think there was passive provision for DLR branch to the east at this point. There was passive provision for the Jubilee line to be extended eastwards from North Greenwich via a new junction. First I've heard of any passive provision- no sign on the TfL property map (https://tfl.maps.arcgis.com/) but then there's no sign of the stumps at North Greenwich and they're visible from the platform. (Obviously the vent shaft is there for all to see right by the Thames.) I'm surprised at any idea there might be passive provision since the housing just east of the shaft is only a few years older than the DLR tunnels. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Apr 21, 2022 1:22:57 GMT
I’m flabbergasted why no one thought of the overground being extended to thamesmead? It’s literally so close …. Loads of people have suggested it - even individual Labour assembly members have pressed for it (such as here www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/0340 to Khan and www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/1325 to Johnson). But there's a "computer says no" attitude. This is what the transport strategy for Thamesmead says: "This option would cost around twice as much as the DLR option, as it would require large scale tunnelling works to accommodate the operational requirements of a heavy rail system. Initial work indicates that a tunnelled alignment and provision of underground stations in locations such as Thamesmead and Abbey Wood would be challenging, and would have significant construction, land and property requirements. It is likely that building a LO extension would have a more significant and disruptive impact on local communities, as well as on existing and planned development compared to the other pubilc transport options considered." The Thamesmead transport strategy is Appendix A here - data.london.gov.uk/dataset/thamesmead-and-abbey-wood-opportunity-area-documents - if anyone needs any bed time reading. |
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Apr 21, 2022 2:27:25 GMT
In the near future at least, the Elizabeth line will ensure that Thamesmead will have a faster connection to Central London using the existing bus network that can feed passengers to Abbey Wood or Woolwich stations. It's not perfect, but it'll be a lot better than the current situation where they have to wait for Southeastern or Thameslink services that crawl towards London Bridge.
As for Camberwell, unlike Thamesmead, it has excellent bus connections to Oval, Brixton and Elephant & Castle tube stations in addition to those who live in south Camberwell who can access Denmark Hill Overground station. Loughborough Junction isn't far away either from Camberwell for Thameslink.
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Post by cl54 on Apr 21, 2022 5:57:00 GMT
In the near future at least, the Elizabeth line will ensure that Thamesmead will have a faster connection to Central London using the existing bus network that can feed passengers to Abbey Wood or Woolwich stations. It's not perfect, but it'll be a lot better than the current situation where they have to wait for Southeastern or Thameslink services that crawl towards London Bridge. As for Camberwell, unlike Thamesmead, it has excellent bus connections to Oval, Brixton and Elephant & Castle tube stations in addition to those who live in south Camberwell who can access Denmark Hill Overground station. Loughborough Junction isn't far away either from Camberwell for Thameslink. The difference from the original Thamesmead and now is that the main line services from nearby stations have increased. When I started work at London Transport in July 1972 there were 2 trains an hour via Greenwich and 2 via Lewisham. If/when full services are restored there will be 6 via Greenwich and 2 via Lewisham. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 21, 2022 10:32:27 GMT
In the near future at least, the Elizabeth line will ensure that Thamesmead will have a faster connection to Central London using the existing bus network that can feed passengers to Abbey Wood or Woolwich stations. It's not perfect, but it'll be a lot better than the current situation where they have to wait for Southeastern or Thameslink services that crawl towards London Bridge. As for Camberwell, unlike Thamesmead, it has excellent bus connections to Oval, Brixton and Elephant & Castle tube stations in addition to those who live in south Camberwell who can access Denmark Hill Overground station. Loughborough Junction isn't far away either from Camberwell for Thameslink. The difference from the original Thamesmead and now is that the main line services from nearby stations have increased. When I started work at London Transport in July 1972 there were 2 trains an hour via Greenwich and 2 via Lewisham. If/when full services are restored there will be 6 via Greenwich and 2 via Lewisham. Wasn’t there 1tph that was the old fast train which was fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal then Dartford, Gravesend, Strood then divided into a Maidstone West portion and a Ramsgate portion, with the other 2tph being Charing Cross via Greenwich stoppers The 2tph via Lewisham were Cannon Street trains, so it’s Ironic to see that the trend has swapped, with now all CX trains going via Lewisham and Greenwich being exclusively serviced by Cannon Street trains. |
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Post by cl54 on Apr 21, 2022 16:49:22 GMT
The difference from the original Thamesmead and now is that the main line services from nearby stations have increased. When I started work at London Transport in July 1972 there were 2 trains an hour via Greenwich and 2 via Lewisham. If/when full services are restored there will be 6 via Greenwich and 2 via Lewisham. Wasn’t there 1tph that was the old fast train which was fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal then Dartford, Gravesend, Strood then divided into a Maidstone West portion and a Ramsgate portion, with the other 2tph being Charing Cross via Greenwich stoppers The 2tph via Lewisham were Cannon Street trains, so it’s Ironic to see that the trend has swapped, with now all CX trains going via Lewisham and Greenwich being exclusively serviced by Cannon Street trains. British Rail tried to swap the Greenwich line trains from Charing Cross to Cannon Street but then realised something like 80% of the passengers wanted the West End. At the time it was cheaper to travel to London Bridge than Cannon Street. Many people walked across the bridge to save money so the swap didn't make sense. The DfT want to get rid of the via Lewisham trains. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 21, 2022 17:55:22 GMT
Wasn’t there 1tph that was the old fast train which was fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal then Dartford, Gravesend, Strood then divided into a Maidstone West portion and a Ramsgate portion, with the other 2tph being Charing Cross via Greenwich stoppers The 2tph via Lewisham were Cannon Street trains, so it’s Ironic to see that the trend has swapped, with now all CX trains going via Lewisham and Greenwich being exclusively serviced by Cannon Street trains. British Rail tried to swap the Greenwich line trains from Charing Cross to Cannon Street but then realised something like 80% of the passengers wanted the West End. At the time it was cheaper to travel to London Bridge than Cannon Street. Many people walked across the bridge to save money so the swap didn't make sense. The DfT want to get rid of the via Lewisham trains. The DfT have wanted to do that for years but local opposition from MP’s and local leaders have prevented them for doing that, as it would break valuable links, also it was found it would cost too much money to close the line between Charlton and Blackheath as it’s a big infrastructure with the tunnel, so thankfully it’ll never happen Also it’s worth noting the Lewisham trains are generally busier than the Greenwich and Thameslink trains, many change at Lewisham to get to other parts of South London, Victoria or Kings Hospital at Denmark Hill, also because the West End is still a popular destination and Charing Cross trains now run via Lewisham only. |
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Post by greenboy on Apr 21, 2022 18:43:08 GMT
British Rail tried to swap the Greenwich line trains from Charing Cross to Cannon Street but then realised something like 80% of the passengers wanted the West End. At the time it was cheaper to travel to London Bridge than Cannon Street. Many people walked across the bridge to save money so the swap didn't make sense. The DfT want to get rid of the via Lewisham trains. The DfT have wanted to do that for years but local opposition from MP’s and local leaders have prevented them for doing that, as it would break valuable links, also it was found it would cost too much money to close the line between Charlton and Blackheath as it’s a big infrastructure with the tunnel, so thankfully it’ll never happen Also it’s worth noting the Lewisham trains are generally busier than the Greenwich and Thameslink trains, many change at Lewisham to get to other parts of South London, Victoria or Kings Hospital at Denmark Hill, also because the West End is still a popular destination and Charing Cross trains now run via Lewisham only. I doubt if the line would actually close anyway, it just wouldn't be used by regular services just empty stock movements and emergencies and Angerstein Wharf etc. Obviously it's an operational inconvenience but I can't see the service being withdrawn, if that did happen there would be no Charing Cross service via Woolwich. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2022 18:44:38 GMT
I used to use SE Trains via Gravesend, Abbey Wood, Woolwich & Lewisham. Replaced by the rubbish* hourly Thameslink route via Greenwich.
There just seems to be inertia when it comes to railways in SE London and also night services.
The N1 should be extended to Erith with a Kent CC Fastrack service C from Erith to Darent Valley Hospital via A206 , Bridge Estate, LCY3 , Crossways , Stone, Greenhithe, Bluewater . Fastrack C should be 24/7 ( times to connect with arriving / departing N1’s) , with the N1 having later am trips on Sundays filling a gap of the madness of no very early morning SE trains.
* I’m aware full service expected to resume 15th May
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