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Post by southlondon413 on Aug 31, 2022 16:50:18 GMT
Anyone who doesn’t do their research before going to an unfamiliar area frankly deserves what they get even if it just lost. But what about if you are visually impaired? Even a visually impaired person wouldn’t venture into an unknown area without proper research or without a carer. |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Aug 31, 2022 17:32:50 GMT
But what about if you are visually impaired? Even a visually impaired person wouldn’t venture into an unknown area without proper research or without a carer. that is one of the most condescending things I have ever read. Why can't a person with a visual impairment go out somewhere new by themselves? Why would you automatically someone would need a 'carer' to go anywhere? Even for every day travel, visually impaired people will often require some assistance to complete their journeys, whether that be through the use of automated announcements, help navigating their way through a station etc. Next you'll be saying we don't need a step free transport network in London because a person with reduced mobility shouldn't have the freedom to go out whenever they want |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 31, 2022 17:42:38 GMT
Well, I'm relieved to hear that these graphics at least seem relatively new(...ish), and that I haven't somehow overlooked them for the last few years. From the replies, it seems Abellio may be something of an early adopter, but given that these signs are now part of the Bus Graphics Standard, one would expect to see other operators follow in due course. That said, both the new and previous Bus Graphics Standard documents include rules that have been overlooked, if not blatantly ignored, by operators. The directive stating that "no operator branding is to appear on the front or back of the bus" remains a particularly egregious example of operators doing as they wish...   Will we see a mass lot of entries to the "repaints / refurbs" thread? Does that apply to Bus Driver Vacancy phone numbers as well? If they are going to start "standardizing" everything, then at least roll out LED blinds to all  Looks like HV100 and all the recently painted buses will have to lose logo's from the back and front  Perhaps it will induce Tottenham to put new Arriva logos on (the sides of) their HV's I guess the 318 E200 Darts can get another repaint into this latest London Drab for the next 10 years |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 31, 2022 17:47:28 GMT
Wonder why the first sign, the big welcome sign includes a picture of someone walking a dog. Is the aim to get more people taking their dog on a bus ? I'm going to take Cujo, my West Green Terrier (XL Bully crossbreed) on a 123 tomorrow to gauge reactions  |
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Post by southlondon413 on Aug 31, 2022 17:56:38 GMT
Even a visually impaired person wouldn’t venture into an unknown area without proper research or without a carer. that is one of the most condescending things I have ever read. Why can't a person with a visual impairment go out somewhere new by themselves? Why would you automatically someone would need a 'carer' to go anywhere? Even for every day travel, visually impaired people will often require some assistance to complete their journeys, whether that be through the use of automated announcements, help navigating their way through a station etc. Next you'll be saying we don't need a step free transport network in London because a person with reduced mobility shouldn't have the freedom to go out whenever they want Not my point at all, of course anyone is free to go anywhere they want. My point was that without proper research anyone can expect to get lost impaired or not. But take my words how ever you feel, I don’t really give a poo. |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 31, 2022 19:24:53 GMT
This seems worthwhile to me and the cost will be fairly minimal, on a similar theme when I've used buses elsewhere the automated announcements saying "welcome to/thank you for travelling on... route xx" sound a lot better to me, only a minor detail but it makes a difference. Welcome on board becomes very tedious when on long journeys! Minimal costs but does it really add anything? Do people go WOW look it’s got a sticker saying welcome on board. The answer IMO is no! Just somewhere else to throw a Morleys chicken box / broken iPhone cable / detached hair braid, fam there's little fanfare on a teenage E200 Dart inching through traffic at 5 miles an hour... everything else TfL is low rent, people will see through such signage as insincere, and drivers (usually not in uniform and looking like an extra from a sports catalogue) will tire of handing out "please allow me to sit down" badges They will burn through this DfT cash very quickly at this rate |
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Post by danorak on Aug 31, 2022 21:42:32 GMT
Is this in the Bus Action Plan? If so, TfL has to make progress with that as a condition of the bailout.
If these signs have to be refreshed periodically anyway then the cost is pretty much going to be nil.
As for audio-visual announcements, they make a huge difference to people making an unfamiliar journey. It helps alleviate concern that you'll miss your stop, especially now people need to change buses more frequently. It gives confidence. And there will (eventually) be regulations under the Bus Services Act to make them mandatory, although who knows what's happened to that consultation.
Reading some of the comments around here lately, I'm starting to wonder whether we want people to use buses at all.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 31, 2022 23:32:15 GMT
Is this in the Bus Action Plan? If so, TfL has to make progress with that as a condition of the bailout. If these signs have to be refreshed periodically anyway then the cost is pretty much going to be nil. As for audio-visual announcements, they make a huge difference to people making an unfamiliar journey. It helps alleviate concern that you'll miss your stop, especially now people need to change buses more frequently. It gives confidence. And there will (eventually) be regulations under the Bus Services Act to make them mandatory, although who knows what's happened to that consultation. Reading some of the comments around here lately, I'm starting to wonder whether we want people to use buses at all. I agree about audio and visual announcements and they also mean that the driver doesn't have to deal questions and get asked to let someone know when they get to a particular stop. |
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Post by mark on Sept 1, 2022 6:33:20 GMT
The first (big) "Welcome Aboard" sign has been in use for some time, have noticed it (only) on Abellio buses in West London - not seen it being used by any other operator though - the second more detailed sign I've never seen in use yet! The revised graphics were first used on Arriva's EA3, along with "I'm an electric bus branding" when it appeared at the Zero Emission Bus Summit last year after which TfL clearly paused for breath! More recently, a number (most?) of Abellio's refurbished LTs have received them along with a number of other vehicles in the fleet. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 1, 2022 16:59:13 GMT
Spotted this new signage on the L3 Rail Replacement Abellio if I recall correctly.
On the discussion:
- TfL will have business cases for most expenditure and I expect that there is a pot for this kind of thing. I dont think the costs are excessive for this.
- No need to add to the ibus announcement, good as it is. I think the focus should be on ensuring errors are fixed as quickly as possible as I note several more journeys with ibus announcement issues lately. By the way, excessive/loud announcements are one of the most complained about things from passengers (mainly train users but also at stations)
- There have been a few incremental changes lately to help advance customer experience that we should be happy with (even though we know that major things could be done to improve experience such as on bus priority). For example, amendments to destination names, having that loud 'ping' before a driver speaks on the mic. I think it is great that there is work going to do the small things as well.
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 1, 2022 17:28:20 GMT
Go-Ahead, at least at BX and MG, are very enthusiastically plastering the inside of their buses with this new signage.
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Post by YY13VKP on Sept 3, 2022 16:09:32 GMT
I didn’t ask you and I did ask you to keep out of my way but here we are again. It’s going to get very boring like it did with another member! Costs might be minimal but they soon add up! Just because a fancy 63 bus becomes a TikTok hit doesn’t mean a thing with a buses sits a stop for ten minutes so that an operator gets its bonus! I’m looking at you GoAhead! This is not about fitting any argument as you put it. I'm struggling to understand how going viral after specifying new buses with USB charging ports and glass roof panels can have any material impact on how long a bus waits at a stop. The costs of introducing such signage would indeed be marginal, potentially nominal, within the broader scale of TfL's production of other signage and notices across its bus, tube, rail, river and other transport networks. And I would think that the purpose of the signage is obvious: to make bus journeys just a teeny, tiny bit more pleasant. Seeing it won't make your day, or put a big beaming smile on your face, but it might be a nice touch for visitors, or even for the kind of occasional travellers that TfL is hoping will use the bus network a bit more often as it seeks to boost post-pandemic numbers. As part of a wider range of improvements to buses over the coming years - such as more zero-emissions vehicles, and broader implementation of the Future Bus spec - I'm sure it's hoped that all of these small enhancements will combine into a greater public sense that buses aren't completely terrible. A sticker on its own is obviously not going to transform anything, and I think we all know that, so let's not be silly about it. But it might just make things feel at least a tiny bit more... pleasant for some bus passengers at least; and with the minimal cost involved, it's a no-brainer to give it a try. And yes, even minimal costs do add up - for signs, USB ports, and everything else - but some money is worth spending, as it adds value (or 'pleasantness') to the passenger experience, making bus travel a little bit more appealing (or a little bit less sh!t, if you prefer). Operators have to improve the passenger experience from time to time, if only to justify the steady and inevitable increase in ticket prices. That's why provincial and even independent operators across the UK have been introducing features like Wi-Fi, leather seats, and even mood lighting on services for years - they understand that the quality of the onboard experience matters if you want people to use your bus services, and that often means introducing non-essential features and elements that simply make everything feel a bit nicer. Making such improvements to the vehicle specification has no relation to the running or reliability of the service (unless, of course, these features somehow directly cause a bus to be withdrawn from service). But if your bus arrives 10 minutes late because the service has been regulated, it's not because the operator specified a sunroof for the bus, or because there's a 'welcome aboard' sign by the driver. These things are completely disconnected, so I don't understand why you're equating the two. Indeed, it sounds like you have a separate grievance with the quality of service provided by a particular operator, which doesn't really belong in this discussion. Some of the latest additions to TfL's bus spec, such as USB ports - and even relatively trivial additions like 'welcome aboard' signage - may seem like frivolous, wasteful spending in lean times to those who can't understand that the passenger experience has to continue evolving, as well as to the embittered few who curse the spending of all public money on anything but the most austere and joyless essentials. But while some new features may not meet with everyone's approval, the fact is that new buses need to be ordered anyway, and the costs of adding such new features to bulk fleet orders is relatively small. And many of these costs are continuing to fall as operators in the UK and around the world make such features standard across their fleet renewals in growing numbers, facilitating greater economies of scale and increased savings. As any bus operator will tell you, spending a little bit extra here and there can go a long way to making passengers happy, and to attracting new ones - and in the long term, that's money well spent. I completely agree, and TeamPennine in Huddersfield is an example of a company who's spent a little bit extra to improve the customer experience, taking over a dreary Yorkshire Tiger and introducing better and more attractive buses for their services, whilst refurbishing some of the ex Tiger fleet. People much prefer travelling with them than First who did the bare minimum with their buses. But because of TeamPennine's arrival, First have been forced to react as they're now introducing branding onto most of their buses at Huddersfield and Halifax and are rebranding their Bradford and Leeds services, as well as introducing newer buses to Huddersfield and Halifax but Transdev Blazefield have always prided themselves in creating in their words "buses people want to be seen on". And they do a fantastic job at doing just that. TfL could really learn a lot from them in how to attract people onto buses, even if some of the services Transdev Blazefield serve are long distance routes. But, these new Welcome Onboard signs are definitely a step in the right direction to attracting more bus passengers, and whilst they were introduced with the 63's new Enviro400's at the very start of this year they've now started to be rolled out to the rest of the fleet. Since I returned from my holiday I've noticed a lot of Go-Ahead London buses have had the signage installed, particularly at C and MB. TfL may have been struggling for cash but they've really started to make worthwhile improvements to bus infrastructure and bring them to more modern standards seen in other cities. I think there could be improvements to the iBus announcements though, as others have said I think a Welcome aboard message would be a welcome addition. "Welcome aboard this 434 to Coulsdon, Ridgemount Avenue" sounds much more customer friendly than just "434 to Coulsdon, Ridgemount Avenue" for example. Another iBus enhancement I thought of was when it announces a stop name, the announcement should start with "next stop" before the iBus announces the stop name, like what Metrobus are doing with their real time information system. May cost a little extra yes, but its not excessive and all these little things can go a long way to improve the overall customer experience. |
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Post by wirewiper on Sept 3, 2022 16:26:02 GMT
Am I right in thinking the new signage first appeared as part of the specification upgrade that was trialled on route 63?
It is good to update the signage from time to time and keep the corporate image looking fresh - contrary to what some people think, passengers DO notice when signs look new, fresh and coherent and when extra notices are simply slapped on willy-nilly next to tired old posters (which may also be out-of-date, or amended with a felt-tip pen). After all buses (usually!) get a mid-life refurb so why shouldn't the public notices get some attention?
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Post by vjaska on Sept 3, 2022 16:28:44 GMT
I'm struggling to understand how going viral after specifying new buses with USB charging ports and glass roof panels can have any material impact on how long a bus waits at a stop. The costs of introducing such signage would indeed be marginal, potentially nominal, within the broader scale of TfL's production of other signage and notices across its bus, tube, rail, river and other transport networks. And I would think that the purpose of the signage is obvious: to make bus journeys just a teeny, tiny bit more pleasant. Seeing it won't make your day, or put a big beaming smile on your face, but it might be a nice touch for visitors, or even for the kind of occasional travellers that TfL is hoping will use the bus network a bit more often as it seeks to boost post-pandemic numbers. As part of a wider range of improvements to buses over the coming years - such as more zero-emissions vehicles, and broader implementation of the Future Bus spec - I'm sure it's hoped that all of these small enhancements will combine into a greater public sense that buses aren't completely terrible. A sticker on its own is obviously not going to transform anything, and I think we all know that, so let's not be silly about it. But it might just make things feel at least a tiny bit more... pleasant for some bus passengers at least; and with the minimal cost involved, it's a no-brainer to give it a try. And yes, even minimal costs do add up - for signs, USB ports, and everything else - but some money is worth spending, as it adds value (or 'pleasantness') to the passenger experience, making bus travel a little bit more appealing (or a little bit less sh!t, if you prefer). Operators have to improve the passenger experience from time to time, if only to justify the steady and inevitable increase in ticket prices. That's why provincial and even independent operators across the UK have been introducing features like Wi-Fi, leather seats, and even mood lighting on services for years - they understand that the quality of the onboard experience matters if you want people to use your bus services, and that often means introducing non-essential features and elements that simply make everything feel a bit nicer. Making such improvements to the vehicle specification has no relation to the running or reliability of the service (unless, of course, these features somehow directly cause a bus to be withdrawn from service). But if your bus arrives 10 minutes late because the service has been regulated, it's not because the operator specified a sunroof for the bus, or because there's a 'welcome aboard' sign by the driver. These things are completely disconnected, so I don't understand why you're equating the two. Indeed, it sounds like you have a separate grievance with the quality of service provided by a particular operator, which doesn't really belong in this discussion. Some of the latest additions to TfL's bus spec, such as USB ports - and even relatively trivial additions like 'welcome aboard' signage - may seem like frivolous, wasteful spending in lean times to those who can't understand that the passenger experience has to continue evolving, as well as to the embittered few who curse the spending of all public money on anything but the most austere and joyless essentials. But while some new features may not meet with everyone's approval, the fact is that new buses need to be ordered anyway, and the costs of adding such new features to bulk fleet orders is relatively small. And many of these costs are continuing to fall as operators in the UK and around the world make such features standard across their fleet renewals in growing numbers, facilitating greater economies of scale and increased savings. As any bus operator will tell you, spending a little bit extra here and there can go a long way to making passengers happy, and to attracting new ones - and in the long term, that's money well spent. I completely agree, and TeamPennine in Huddersfield is an example of a company who's spent a little bit extra to improve the customer experience, taking over a dreary Yorkshire Tiger and introducing better and more attractive buses for their services, whilst refurbishing some of the ex Tiger fleet. People much prefer travelling with them than First who did the bare minimum with their buses. But TeamPennine's arrival First have been forced to react as they're now introducing branding onto most of their buses at Huddersfield and Halifax and are rebranding their Bradford and Leeds services, as well as introducing newer buses to Huddersfield and Halifax but Transdev Blazefield have always prided themselves in creating in their words "buses people want to be seen on". And they do a fantastic job at doing just that. TfL could really learn a lot from them in how to attract people onto buses, even if some of the services Transdev Blazefield serve are long distance routes. But, these new Welcome Onboard signs are definitely a step in the right direction to attracting more bus passengers, and whilst they were introduced with the 63's new Enviro400's at the very start of this year they've now started to be rolled out to the rest of the fleet. Since I returned from my holiday I've noticed a lot of Go-Ahead London buses have had the signage installed, particularly at C and MB. TfL may have been struggling for cash but they've really started to make worthwhile improvements to bus infrastructure and bring them to more modern standards seen in other cities. I think there could be improvements to the iBus announcements though, as others have said I think a Welcome aboard message would be a welcome addition. "Welcome aboard this 434 to Coulsdon, Ridgemount Avenue" sounds much more customer friendly than just "434 to Coulsdon, Ridgemount Avenue" for example. Another iBus enhancement I thought of was when it announces a stop name, the announcement should start with "next stop" before the iBus announces the stop name, like what Metrobus are doing with their real time information system. May cost a little extra yes, but its not excessive and all these little things can go a long way to improve the overall customer experience. I agree with the welcome signs and message on the I-Bus but I don't think adding in next stop is neccesary though I understand why you suggested it. I think provincial operators could learn a lot from I-Bus TBH - still not found a system out in the provinces that's even on a level with I-Bus (Ensignbus is probably the closest one) whereas TfL could learn a lot about a number of things, especially real time information at stops which some places do really well like those interactive stops that have popped up in places like High Wycombe |
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Post by YY13VKP on Sept 3, 2022 16:41:19 GMT
Am I right in thinking the new signage first appeared as part of the specification upgrade that was trialled on route 63? It is good to update the signage from time to time and keep the corporate image looking fresh - contrary to what some people think, passengers DO notice when signs look new, fresh and coherent and when extra notices are simply slapped on willy-nilly next to tired old posters (which may also be out-of-date, or amended with a felt-tip pen). After all buses (usually!) get a mid-life refurb so why shouldn't the public notices get some attention? It did indeed. |
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Looks like HV100 and all the recently painted buses will have to lose logo's from the back and front 
Perhaps it will induce Tottenham to put new Arriva logos on (the sides of) their HV's 
