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Post by busman on Nov 22, 2023 21:39:55 GMT
This is a waste. Just extend the SL3 to Woolwich non-stop from Thamesmead. There are bus lanes in place along most of the route. Job done. Take the remaining £22.5 million and buy an extra boat for the Woolwich Ferry. Or just use the existing network here - the 472 already has very few stops between Plumstead and Thamesmead. I'm not sure a superloop-style service would be much quicker? Regarding the ferry, would perhaps be better to instead introduce an alternative ferry somewhere further to the east? The issue with the existing/planned road crossings in this area is that they all parallel rail crossings - which are suitable alternatives for many journeys. The Silvertown/Blackwall tunnels and the Woolwich Ferry are all close by to the Jubilee line, Elizabeth Line and DLR tunnels. A ferry linking Barking Riverside to Thamesmead would be ideal. No more ferry crossings. No no no no noooo. Ferries are not 24:7, do not provide reliable crossing times, are vulnerable to poor weather, staff shortages, strikes, and technical problems. Such unreliability does not drive economic growth and unlock opportunities for Thamesmead and other areas of potential either side of the Thames. We need another bridge or tunnel between Dartford and Silvertown. Do it properly or not at all, but that is not the UK’s way of thinking these days. Also a non-stop service between Thamesmead and Woolwich would be considerably faster than a 472 during the day. But the glorified bus with rubber tyres thingy will have more stops than that and will end up being not much faster than a 472. As someone local to the area and a transport enthusiast I should be excited about the announcement, but even I can see absolutely no need for a rapid bus transit. The council has always campaigned for one, but since the Lizzie Line opened the need has decreased. Abbey Wood is by far the better option for travel to and from Thamesmead. Sainsburys, Morrisons, Iceland, Lidl and Aldi are all in Thamesmead or Abbey Wood for shopping. However, Thamesmead and Abbey Wood still has no banks. Neither does Plumstead since Barclays left a few years ago. There were 3 banks in Plumstead when I first moved to the area. So maybe people who need to physically get to a bank branch would love a rapid transit thingy. But currently there is zero hardship suffered jumping on a 472 especially since it now runs direct past Belmarsh. Like I said, extend the SL3 to Woolwich non-stop et voila you have something that will be even faster to and from Thamesmead.
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Post by matthieu1221 on Nov 22, 2023 23:01:36 GMT
The Chancellor's Autumn Statement (22nd November 2023) has offered £23 million of funding towards a rapid bus transit between Woolwich and Thamesmead, subject to Business Case Approval. Whilst TfL welcomes the announcement of funding for the bus transit, it notes that this was only seen as an intermediate measure to kick-start housing development, in advance of the DLR extension to Thamesmead being constructed. There has been no mention in the Statement of funding for the DLR extension, or for other projects which could be affected by TfL's projected £500 million in investment funding that it had hoped would be covered. This could put TfL's investment strategy for 2024/2025 and beyond at risk. www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/government-offers-23-million-for-rapid-bus-link-connecting-woolwich-to-thamesmead-67592/This is a waste. Just extend the SL3 to Woolwich non-stop from Thamesmead. There are bus lanes in place along most of the route. Job done. Take the remaining £22.5 million and buy an extra boat for the Woolwich Ferry. For all the criticism Superloop gets, the part is does get right is that if you ignore all the gimmicky roundels, the idea of incremental upgrades are excellent in terms of cost to benefit. Whilst the rest of Europe seems to go wild with expensive BRT with fancy vehicles and 100%, if not very high percentages, of dedicated right of way which cost a fortune (and at times, if you include the lower operational costs of a tram in the long run -- pretty much the price of a tram), London -- perhaps because TfL doesn't have money anyway, has realised that incremental bus lane upgrades where they are needed (and cheap), signal timing reviews, etc... are better value for money than an expensive gadgetbahn. So I hope that they won't do just that here and do more of the same.
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Post by buspete on Nov 26, 2023 20:26:57 GMT
I think the DLR at Woolwich Arsenal faces the wrong way, as if it faced the other way you could extend to Thamesmead, stopping at several stations along the way.
The London Overground that terminates at Barking Reach could be extended to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood, with the addition of District/Hammersmith & City Line trains that terminate at Barking also extended over the river.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 26, 2023 20:46:54 GMT
I think the DLR at Woolwich Arsenal faces the wrong way, as if it faced the other way you could extend to Thamesmead, stopping at several stations along the way. The London Overground that terminates at Barking Reach could be extended to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood, with the addition of District/Hammersmith & City Line trains that terminate at Barking also extended over the river. The DLR is slightly annoying in its layout where both the Woolwich and Beckton terminus are on J curves making any potential extension not as straightforward as they should be. There's the prospect of Beckton losing services if the Thamesmead extension takes place. The Barking Riverside Station isn't suitable to extend to Thamesmead at the moment as it's on a viaduct, the viaduct isn't suitable to extend over a bridge as such bridge would need to be extremely high to allow the boats to go through (we're looking at QE2 sized). I believe there is provision for a tunnel to start somewhere but it might not be economical to do anytime soon. It's pretty much impossible to get the Underground over as the District Line is on the wrong side of the c2c to be extended and any such extension would require the line to go underneath the c2c tracks. This will mean diving into a tunnel just after East Ham and redesigning Barking Station with underground platforms, which itself could be made even more complicated as HS1 passes under Barking Station. It's possible to do, but would be an extreme amount of work, although the flip side is if you got the Underground into a tunnel then any further extensions would be quite straightforward.
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Post by ADH45258 on Nov 26, 2023 22:15:06 GMT
I do wonder if any rail extension to Thamesmead is really need since the Elizabeth line has opened at Abbey Wood, regardless of which line would potentially go there.
Particularly because Thamesmead as an area is quite spread out. If you put a new station somewhere in the centre, roughly near where some of the bus routes terminate, this still won't be in walking distance of much of the housing in Thamesmead - and many passengers would still choose to take a bus to somewhere like Abbey Wood or Plumstead.
I suppose the DLR might work slightly better than other lines as it could have multiple stations close together, but where would the tracks actually go? There isn't necessarily the space for a rail line to go close to where the housing is, so may require most of the route to be in tunnel, which would then likely cost even more.
In my opinion, a cheaper and short term solution to both Thamesmead and many other areas without a station in walking distance, would be to better integrate bus and rail fares. So that people in these areas wouldn't have to pay an extra £1.75 on top of the rail fare.
I know many major other cities outside the UK do have simpler fare systems between different modes, and there are different approaches you could take. But could just be something simple like an extension of the hopper fare scheme? So maybe if you tap your Oyster on a bus within a fixed period of time before/after tapping in/out at a train station, that bus fare is refunded or reduced?
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Post by matthieu1221 on Nov 28, 2023 19:10:40 GMT
I do wonder if any rail extension to Thamesmead is really need since the Elizabeth line has opened at Abbey Wood, regardless of which line would potentially go there. Particularly because Thamesmead as an area is quite spread out. If you put a new station somewhere in the centre, roughly near where some of the bus routes terminate, this still won't be in walking distance of much of the housing in Thamesmead - and many passengers would still choose to take a bus to somewhere like Abbey Wood or Plumstead. I suppose the DLR might work slightly better than other lines as it could have multiple stations close together, but where would the tracks actually go? There isn't necessarily the space for a rail line to go close to where the housing is, so may require most of the route to be in tunnel, which would then likely cost even more. In my opinion, a cheaper and short term solution to both Thamesmead and many other areas without a station in walking distance, would be to better integrate bus and rail fares. So that people in these areas wouldn't have to pay an extra £1.75 on top of the rail fare. I know many major other cities outside the UK do have simpler fare systems between different modes, and there are different approaches you could take. But could just be something simple like an extension of the hopper fare scheme? So maybe if you tap your Oyster on a bus within a fixed period of time before/after tapping in/out at a train station, that bus fare is refunded or reduced? Intermodal Hopper is definitely something that should be looked at one day (hopefully not with the aims at reducing bus route/rail duplication). It does seem technically feasible as when Blackwall was closed, the Jub was supposedly free for 108 passengers to cross over.
I always also thinking of something similar to your idea:
Bus -> rail, simply pay the difference between the bus and rail fare when tapping in/out rail. Rail -> bus, the bus journey could be free.
This is a very continental European approach where your one 60 minute ticket is valid for all modes. Alternatively, in Hong Kong, you can get a reduced (a fixed amount -- not proportional) bus fare for select routes after hopping off the train and vice versa when changing to the train. This is also how bus-bus interchanges generally work, you pay the fare difference if the second route's fare is higher, or the second route is free if the fare is lower -- this wouldn't be an issue in London with rail given that iirc rail is always more expensive.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 5, 2024 21:23:43 GMT
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