|
Post by LK65EBO on Sept 25, 2023 19:28:58 GMT
I think the rattling and vibrations really make an EV to be honest. They make it a bit more interesting because as some people have pointed out, ultimately without an engine it's a bit quiet really. To be honest even buses with engines can be quiet. The Stagecoach Smart Hybrids are very smooth when the fans are not going full blast in the summer! Citaro Ks are unbelievably quiet too unless the driver uses kickdown.
|
|
|
Post by ServerKing on Sept 25, 2023 21:21:21 GMT
I spotted an offshoot of a conversation on another thread. It so happened to be a topic I was going to raise. As bus enthusiasts many of us like riding and seeking out buses perhaps hunting down (or avoiding!) specific anomalous examples of a batch that might have individual characteristics such as:
- Gearboxes: tuneful noises, shift quality. Differences between Allison, ZF and Voith.
- Engines: roar, burble, rumble, turbo whistle. Differences between generations of Cummins, Volvo, Mercedes etc. engines.
- Performance characteristics: kickdown enabled, engine/gearbox mapping, fast acceleration
But do you get the same enjoyment riding EV buses as you do fully diesel or to an extent hybrid ones? As an enthusiast I find them all pretty much the same apart from a slight variance in drive-train whine. They all either as a batch or individual examples accelerate, brake and sound the same to me and if there are any differences they aren't as stark as with diesels. I'm not saying they are bad vehicles in fact they offer a very pleasant environment for non-enthusiast passengers with smooth linear acceleration and a quiet ride. Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps in 30 years time the members of this forum will be reminiscing about the qualities of long gone BYD/AD Enviro 400EVs, Wright Electroliners and Caetano E.City Golds! Whilst they are still there I will be hunting down diesels and to a degree hybrids but I'm not so sure if I will have much or any enthusiasm for doing the same with EV buses. Do you feel the same?
It's nice being on a bus that can give most cars a run for their money in terms of accelleration I was on one of the 153's SEe's and it's even better than the hybrids on the 56. I think we will miss the range of tones from a screaming DB300 on the 123, but it's nice not to hear roaring B7TL cooling fans (especially when on all the time, like the elderly VLAs on the 123 were). Noticed some EV gearboxes feature a second gear (certainly the case in new cars like the Porsche Taycan), and Voith are making drivetrains for the new ADL E400 EV (which wont feature BYD parts), so perhaps things may get more tuneful again in future? The speed of the electrics is good
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Sept 25, 2023 22:18:31 GMT
The reason those operators cannot afford to run electric buses is due to them not being able to afford electric infrastructure due to them being relatively small operations. I don't see how moving towards electric buses is a bad thing although I am willing to accept that there would be more environmentally friendly ways of operating buses such as trolleybuses and even trams in some cases where demand is high enough to warrant them. Ultimately the benefits of trolleybuses and trams are they don't require anywhere near the size of a conventional lithium ion battery used in electric buses and instead draw their power from overheard wires which can be powered by renewable energy to generate electricity. I know it is a slightly bitter pill to swallow but electric buses are still nice to ride. They are new remember - as they get on they could become more interesting. Personally I find far more enjoyment in the sights seen from buses rather than the actual bus itself and generally like riding around on buses for the sake of it, but I'm willing to accept there are plenty of enthusiasts who will think differently. And that's perfectly okay.
Correct me if I am wrong but the govt are providing grants for operators based in more rural areas to go EV. Btw you will know but operators in counties do not even have a fleet of Hybrids due to again the cost. I recall that Ensign sold theirs due to cost and also mentioned on this article: www.route-one.net/features/1000-hybrids-where-are-they-now/Despite what’s written in that article, Ensignbus didn’t sell the 6 62 hybrids a year later - in fact, I believe they’re still there now with First who brought them out
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Sept 25, 2023 23:22:32 GMT
I spotted an offshoot of a conversation on another thread. It so happened to be a topic I was going to raise. As bus enthusiasts many of us like riding and seeking out buses perhaps hunting down (or avoiding!) specific anomalous examples of a batch that might have individual characteristics such as:
- Gearboxes: tuneful noises, shift quality. Differences between Allison, ZF and Voith.
- Engines: roar, burble, rumble, turbo whistle. Differences between generations of Cummins, Volvo, Mercedes etc. engines.
- Performance characteristics: kickdown enabled, engine/gearbox mapping, fast acceleration
But do you get the same enjoyment riding EV buses as you do fully diesel or to an extent hybrid ones? As an enthusiast I find them all pretty much the same apart from a slight variance in drive-train whine. They all either as a batch or individual examples accelerate, brake and sound the same to me and if there are any differences they aren't as stark as with diesels. I'm not saying they are bad vehicles in fact they offer a very pleasant environment for non-enthusiast passengers with smooth linear acceleration and a quiet ride. Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps in 30 years time the members of this forum will be reminiscing about the qualities of long gone BYD/AD Enviro 400EVs, Wright Electroliners and Caetano E.City Golds! Whilst they are still there I will be hunting down diesels and to a degree hybrids but I'm not so sure if I will have much or any enthusiasm for doing the same with EV buses. Do you feel the same?
I think this post pretty much sums my thoughts up on them - not a fan of electrics from an enthusiast point of view but certainly with the higher spec introduced, passenger environment and experience is improved for non enthusiasts plus the obvious improvement from an emissions point of view. I've mentioned it before but it was the sounds of a bus that got me into them, particularly the sounds of a Gardener engine on T's, M's & L's as well as the distinctive sounds these buses would make such as the sneezing sound when a T or L would change gear, the many different handbrake sounds, the T's brakes making the incredibly loud groan as they aged, the M's clunk into 3rd gear, etc
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Sept 26, 2023 0:38:05 GMT
I do enjoy travelling on electrics generally, being smoother and often less sluggish uphill than diesels. As an enthusiast of bus travel, it's also good to have anything that will be an improvement for normal passengers and therefore help the image of buses as a whole. These improvements were very noticeable on the occasion I caught an Enviro400 on the 142 sometime after the BYD / E400EVs were introduced and before the StreetDeck Electroliners completed that conversion - a diesel E400 seemed a huge downgrade by comparison.
That said, as I've never been into that side of things regarding engines, gearboxes and differences in individual vehicles' performance, perhaps I'm more of a regular passenger for the purposes of this thread.
|
|
|
Post by joefrombow on Sept 26, 2023 4:17:35 GMT
I spotted an offshoot of a conversation on another thread. It so happened to be a topic I was going to raise. As bus enthusiasts many of us like riding and seeking out buses perhaps hunting down (or avoiding!) specific anomalous examples of a batch that might have individual characteristics such as:
- Gearboxes: tuneful noises, shift quality. Differences between Allison, ZF and Voith.
- Engines: roar, burble, rumble, turbo whistle. Differences between generations of Cummins, Volvo, Mercedes etc. engines.
- Performance characteristics: kickdown enabled, engine/gearbox mapping, fast acceleration
But do you get the same enjoyment riding EV buses as you do fully diesel or to an extent hybrid ones? As an enthusiast I find them all pretty much the same apart from a slight variance in drive-train whine. They all either as a batch or individual examples accelerate, brake and sound the same to me and if there are any differences they aren't as stark as with diesels. I'm not saying they are bad vehicles in fact they offer a very pleasant environment for non-enthusiast passengers with smooth linear acceleration and a quiet ride. Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps in 30 years time the members of this forum will be reminiscing about the qualities of long gone BYD/AD Enviro 400EVs, Wright Electroliners and Caetano E.City Golds! Whilst they are still there I will be hunting down diesels and to a degree hybrids but I'm not so sure if I will have much or any enthusiasm for doing the same with EV buses. Do you feel the same?
It's nice being on a bus that can give most cars a run for their money in terms of accelleration I was on one of the 153's SEe's and it's even better than the hybrids on the 56. I think we will miss the range of tones from a screaming DB300 on the 123, but it's nice not to hear roaring B7TL cooling fans (especially when on all the time, like the elderly VLAs on the 123 were). Noticed some EV gearboxes feature a second gear (certainly the case in new cars like the Porsche Taycan), and Voith are making drivetrains for the new ADL E400 EV (which wont feature BYD parts), so perhaps things may get more tuneful again in future? The speed of the electrics is good Is it a actually a second gear ? Or a "second gear sound" as I know some of the BMWs can have the engine sound turned on to sound meaty , I think the buses should do this and personally with kickdown sound included 😂 to keep enthusiasts happy but also give it some proper sound instead of the annoying whining bell to make pedestrians aware a vehicle is coming .
|
|
|
Post by joefrombow on Sept 26, 2023 4:22:16 GMT
EVs are quite boring they have no character as it were however they take off very quickly in some cases like the SEes on the 366 little rockets , also the MetroCitys on the 339 seem to have a different louder sound and the old EI's that were on the 108 were also very very quick but yeah I think the buses need an "engine sound" added to make them louder for for pedestrians to hear can add some gearbox sounds in there for variety .
|
|
|
Post by VPL630 on Sept 26, 2023 9:59:26 GMT
The reason those operators cannot afford to run electric buses is due to them not being able to afford electric infrastructure due to them being relatively small operations. I don't see how moving towards electric buses is a bad thing although I am willing to accept that there would be more environmentally friendly ways of operating buses such as trolleybuses and even trams in some cases where demand is high enough to warrant them. Ultimately the benefits of trolleybuses and trams are they don't require anywhere near the size of a conventional lithium ion battery used in electric buses and instead draw their power from overheard wires which can be powered by renewable energy to generate electricity. I know it is a slightly bitter pill to swallow but electric buses are still nice to ride. They are new remember - as they get on they could become more interesting. Personally I find far more enjoyment in the sights seen from buses rather than the actual bus itself and generally like riding around on buses for the sake of it, but I'm willing to accept there are plenty of enthusiasts who will think differently. And that's perfectly okay.
Correct me if I am wrong but the govt are providing grants for operators based in more rural areas to go EV. Btw you will know but operators in counties do not even have a fleet of Hybrids due to again the cost. I recall that Ensign sold theirs due to cost and also mentioned on this article: www.route-one.net/features/1000-hybrids-where-are-they-now/I'm pretty sure Ensign has been trying to get rid of them for some time at least twice I've heard they've been sold only for them to never leave, in the winter and the bitter cold they had to be parked inside and then be given time to warm up before going out for service or they would shut themselves down for various reasons such as Hybrid System Failure/Engine System Failure and sometimes without warning they would lose power which was not favourable in any place let alone on the A13 or going up Sandy Lane. Only a few drivers would go near them without kicking up a fuss as the heating wasn't great but that is a B5 trait and has been the same even with the later ones at Stagecoach. I know the engineers have worked unremittingly to keep them on the road and make them better, I remember one time a certain B5 kept having issues and Volvo came out to look at it and plugged their computer into it and it basically said the bus had been worked really hard for too long and it needed at least 24 hours of rest to recover which is anything but ideal for a bus company. I will say when they are working they are really nice to drive maybe a little too bouncy due to short wheelbase and after a few got new batteries their performance certainly got better, I think the furthest I have taken one is Shoeburness or Maldon much prefer them to anything ADL could produce, their performance is much more suited to a longer run with speeds around 35/40MPH, at their limited speed of 51 they are a bit noisy and the revs are high. They are still with Ensignbus/First and at least one has been repainted recently, Unlike the 7900s at Slough and Basildon which are all being taken off the road for parts and engineering training and then scrapped, part of the problem was parts were a lot more expensive than your ADL counterpart and not much benefit fuel economy wise. It's nice being on a bus that can give most cars a run for their money in terms of accelleration I was on one of the 153's SEe's and it's even better than the hybrids on the 56. I think we will miss the range of tones from a screaming DB300 on the 123, but it's nice not to hear roaring B7TL cooling fans (especially when on all the time, like the elderly VLAs on the 123 were). Noticed some EV gearboxes feature a second gear (certainly the case in new cars like the Porsche Taycan), and Voith are making drivetrains for the new ADL E400 EV (which wont feature BYD parts), so perhaps things may get more tuneful again in future? The speed of the electrics is good Is it a actually a second gear ? Or a "second gear sound" as I know some of the BMWs can have the engine sound turned on to sound meaty , I think the buses should do this and personally with kickdown sound included 😂 to keep enthusiasts happy but also give it some proper sound instead of the annoying whining bell to make pedestrians aware a vehicle is coming . The Volvo BZL platform has a 2 speed gearbox
|
|
|
Post by allentc on Sept 26, 2023 10:18:34 GMT
I've mentioned it before but it was the sounds of a bus that got me into them, particularly the sounds of a Gardener engine on T's, M's & L's as well as the distinctive sounds these buses would make such as the sneezing sound when a T or L would change gear, the many different handbrake sounds, the T's brakes making the incredibly loud groan as they aged, the M's clunk into 3rd gear, etc Ditto, we must be a similar age and its those that you mention plus the Euro 1/2 Darts that got me into buses for exactly the reason you state, that is the various different sounds they made. Because of the lack of drive-train sound I just don't have the same interest or enthusiasm riding EVs. The same argument I am sure is being had with car enthusiasts comparing silent EV cars to the lack of burble from a V8, a buzzy 3 cylinder or Porsche air cooled engine etc.
Perhaps as someone else has said maybe as the buses age and develop a little more character they will be become more interesting whereas at the moment as they are all pretty much factory fresh and so behave the same as each other.
Another poster made a good point that with the lack of drive-train sound the main differentiating point is now the rattles they make, something I have picked up on too. ADL MMCs are particularly bad with interior panels squeaking and creaking as the bus body flexes going through potholes or round corners. I think it is exasperated by the quick release windows rubbing against the body frame not offering as much rigid structural support as bonded glazing and to a lesser extent gasket glazing. Pre-MMCs such as the first gen E400 are nowhere near as bad as the MMCs for creaking. The single decker MMCs are not as bad so it must be to do with being double deck and less structural rigidity.
|
|
|
Post by joefrombow on Sept 26, 2023 13:11:31 GMT
Correct me if I am wrong but the govt are providing grants for operators based in more rural areas to go EV. Btw you will know but operators in counties do not even have a fleet of Hybrids due to again the cost. I recall that Ensign sold theirs due to cost and also mentioned on this article: www.route-one.net/features/1000-hybrids-where-are-they-now/I'm pretty sure Ensign has been trying to get rid of them for some time at least twice I've heard they've been sold only for them to never leave, in the winter and the bitter cold they had to be parked inside and then be given time to warm up before going out for service or they would shut themselves down for various reasons such as Hybrid System Failure/Engine System Failure and sometimes without warning they would lose power which was not favourable in any place let alone on the A13 or going up Sandy Lane. Only a few drivers would go near them without kicking up a fuss as the heating wasn't great but that is a B5 trait and has been the same even with the later ones at Stagecoach. I know the engineers have worked unremittingly to keep them on the road and make them better, I remember one time a certain B5 kept having issues and Volvo came out to look at it and plugged their computer into it and it basically said the bus had been worked really hard for too long and it needed at least 24 hours of rest to recover ... They are still with Ensignbus/First and at least one has been repainted recently, Unlike the 7900s at Slough and Basildon which are all being taken off the road for parts and engineering training and then scrapped, part of the problem was parts were a lot more expensive than your ADL counterpart and not much benefit fuel economy wise. Is it a actually a second gear ? Or a "second gear sound" as I know some of the BMWs can have the engine sound turned on to sound meaty , I think the buses should do this and personally with kickdown sound included 😂 to keep enthusiasts happy but also give it some proper sound instead of the annoying whining bell to make pedestrians aware a vehicle is coming . The Volvo BZL platform has a 2 speed gearbox I know the AI revolution is upon us but a bus needing 24 hours rest is crazy 😂 but this is the problem with everything electronic , if the computer has a issue it's a computer based issue where as with a old school engine it's a mechanical issue , This also begs the question of the future what will happen to Vehicle Engineers ? Will they be trained to learn technology side of things ? And as for Essex 7900s such a shame to see them go as they were brilliant buses when new noticed towards the end though most didn't work in hybrid mode and had the engine running all the time but also a waste them being repainted to then be withdrawn I heard some from BN were sent to RR to be stripped for parts ? And as for the BZL having a two speed gearbox is this similar to the "electric" B5LH gearbox when it changes in electric mode ? Should be interesting too see and bring a bit of variety , but also surely gears are needed for General Electric buses for very hilly routes or some sort of "Power Mode" ? Instead of a continuous CVT style gearbox in the city's this isn't really a issue but in the countryside and some seaside locations this will cause issues .
|
|
|
Post by M1104 on Sept 26, 2023 15:49:36 GMT
The main element I like on EVs is performance on some where the torque is instant from the word go, the 163/164's SEes and the 200's Mes coming to mind on that. I additionally love the whine on the latter as it's more unique in that part of town in a growing sea of Enviro EVs (57 and 152 batch yet to arrive for Merton Garage). Sutton's Ees and Abellio's Caetanos on the other hand feel more governed on pullaway, though I imagine that could be 'theoretically' lifted like with diesels and hybrids. Give me an EV bus that sounds like a 96 stock Jubilee Line train and that'll be my instant favourite. That at least would sound like a diesel bus.
On the diesel bus element I'm enjoying the fact that Merton still have a good number of B9TLs which still appear nearly every night on the 200 as some Mes gain their overnight juice. It will be a very sad day for me when those Volvos go and I don't reckon any newer bus let alone an EV will make up for that barring the EH class that Merton seems unlikely to get for any future existing bus contracts...which incidentally I reckon would've been the most practical type for the 152 for both their vehicle capacity and dimensions.
|
|
|
Post by matthieu1221 on Sept 26, 2023 23:12:19 GMT
I spotted an offshoot of a conversation on another thread. It so happened to be a topic I was going to raise.
As bus enthusiasts many of us like riding and seeking out buses perhaps hunting down (or avoiding!) specific anomalous examples of a batch that might have individual characteristics such as:
- Gearboxes: tuneful noises, shift quality. Differences between Allison, ZF and Voith.
- Engines: roar, burble, rumble, turbo whistle. Differences between generations of Cummins, Volvo, Mercedes etc. engines.
- Performance characteristics: kickdown enabled, engine/gearbox mapping, fast acceleration
But do you get the same enjoyment riding EV buses as you do fully diesel or to an extent hybrid ones?
As an enthusiast I find them all pretty much the same apart from a slight variance in drive-train whine. They all either as a batch or individual examples accelerate, brake and sound the same to me and if there are any differences they aren't as stark as with diesels. I'm not saying they are bad vehicles in fact they offer a very pleasant environment for non-enthusiast passengers with smooth linear acceleration and a quiet ride. Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps in 30 years time the members of this forum will be reminiscing about the qualities of long gone BYD/AD Enviro 400EVs, Wright Electroliners and Caetano E.City Golds! Whilst they are still there I will be hunting down diesels and to a degree hybrids but I'm not so sure if I will have much or any enthusiasm for doing the same with EV buses. Do you feel the same?
I find EVs bland personally however I do like the BYD single deckers, especially the ex Red Arrow. But they are nothing like the diesels i grew up with (DLA, VLA, DWs etc) Funnily enough I find the ex-Red Arrows the worst. They have very jerky acceleration and braking which seems to have been smoothed out on the other batches.
I personally can group buses into a few categories (and examples): - new buses -- novelty factor, usually interesting, usually goes away once I've tried it (can't wait to try the E500EV back in Hong Kong when I get the chance to)
- no longer new but not quite old yet -- just your usual bus (E500/MMC, Gemini 3 'Frog Face')
- personal favorites from the 'no longer new but no longer old' group (E200MMC, E400MMC, MCV bodied B5LH, HK spec E400)
- old enough, either already missed because retired or will miss them (high floor Leyland/Volvo Olympians, Dennis Dragons, Wright-bodied Super Olympians, Man NL262 etc... in Hong Kong)
These groups are fluid and buses shift in and out of them with time, no doubt some EVs will be in my personal favorites when the time comes.
|
|