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Post by vjaska on May 7, 2024 18:07:16 GMT
Indeed, that would not be too bad a replacement. Overall, not a fan of chopping the SL7 ... would make the journeys I would do untenable, meaning SWT it would be. Also not a fan of the N154 idea. It serves weird parts of Sutton and Carshalton, missing out the main bits of Sutton, Carshalton and Wallington. If a route needs to be extended from Croydon to Sutton, 403 or 412 seem the obvious candidates. Alternatively the 198, with something else doing the London Road - Thornton Heath section. Personally I like the route the 410 takes, and wouldn't really want it touched, although I have regularly seen the idea touted on here. Think I'm more in favour of keeping the SL7 as is but can see both the upside and downstairs of such a cut back The 403 would be the best candidate if you feel the top deck and higher frequency are both needed, 412 if you feel only a top deck is needed paired with a low frequency and 433 if you feel a frequent single decker route could cope so there are choices there for sure. I don't think the 198 needs to be included at all and I do feel the 410 is currently a bit of an oddity west of Croydon using short single deckers over a routing that only follows main roads which is why I've suggested it be pulled back to Croydon. |
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Post by londonbuses on May 7, 2024 18:18:47 GMT
Also not a fan of the N154 idea. It serves weird parts of Sutton and Carshalton, missing out the main bits of Sutton, Carshalton and Wallington. I agree the daytime routing of the 154 is not good for a night service, but I'd introduce an N154 that roughly serves the same areas with an improved routing - it would follow the 157 from Morden to Rosehill Roundabout, 154 to Sutton High Street, 407 to Carshalton High St, 157 to Waddon and 154 to West Croydon. Alternatively it could just run via Carshalton Beeches like the daytime 154 does, but I was trying to include the High Streets in Carshalton and Wallington on my routing. |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 7, 2024 18:27:04 GMT
Also not a fan of the N154 idea. It serves weird parts of Sutton and Carshalton, missing out the main bits of Sutton, Carshalton and Wallington. I agree the daytime routing of the 154 is not good for a night service, but I'd introduce an N154 that roughly serves the same areas with an improved routing - it would follow the 157 from Morden to Rosehill Roundabout, 154 to Sutton High Street, 407 to Carshalton High St, 157 to Waddon and 154 to West Croydon. Alternatively it could just run via Carshalton Beeches like the daytime 154 does, but I was trying to include the High Streets in Carshalton and Wallington on my routing. When the N11 was diverted in 2000 it was quite an innovative extension that took on parts of other routes namely the E3 and 297 without having to be an exact replica of day routes as we find with 24h services and this is what i think should be done to link Morden with Sutton aswell as bring a night service again to Carshalton and Wallington High Streets. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on May 7, 2024 18:52:51 GMT
There is literally nowhere that says this is a Stratford to Barnet route at the moment. We only have the draft map and that shows it as a Stratford to Chingford route. That's not quite the case, the briefing sent out to the press was 'Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford' - but as the caveat on the map notes, it is subject to consultation and not final - just like the SL2 and SL3 were both slightly modified as to what the map showed. Also -- I know since we all assume it's being done on the cheap -- infrastructure works can be done! Maybe not in Chingford specifically but since there's less of a race against the clock to get it done before the Mayoral Election, maybe some thought will go to getting some bus-priority in too at the same time that routes are launched. |
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ZiyQ
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Post by ZiyQ on May 8, 2024 18:39:47 GMT
That's not quite the case, the briefing sent out to the press was 'Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford' - but as the caveat on the map notes, it is subject to consultation and not final - just like the SL2 and SL3 were both slightly modified as to what the map showed. Also -- I know since we all assume it's being done on the cheap -- infrastructure works can be done! Maybe not in Chingford specifically but since there's less of a race against the clock to get it done before the Mayoral Election, maybe some thought will go to getting some bus-priority in too at the same time that routes are launched. Infrastructure works will definitely have to be done for many routes to achieve the levels of success that they should be. Bus priority is an extremely vital part of any bus infrastructure, and is especially important for any express / Superloop route, and no route is complete without good reliability and frequency. It is a big shame that TfL have so often ignored bus priority, especially in recent times, for the sake of making driving worse for car drivers, which would inevitably make it worse for buses in turn - the Streatham LTN is a key example of this. If TfL puts at least some more money into their bus priority infrastructure, buses could achieve much higher bus patronage, and people will naturally be attracted to reliable buses that are fast and frequent. As the saying goes, if you build it, they will come. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 8, 2024 21:31:55 GMT
Also -- I know since we all assume it's being done on the cheap -- infrastructure works can be done! Maybe not in Chingford specifically but since there's less of a race against the clock to get it done before the Mayoral Election, maybe some thought will go to getting some bus-priority in too at the same time that routes are launched. Infrastructure works will definitely have to be done for many routes to achieve the levels of success that they should be. Bus priority is an extremely vital part of any bus infrastructure, and is especially important for any express / Superloop route, and no route is complete without good reliability and frequency. It is a big shame that TfL have so often ignored bus priority, especially in recent times, for the sake of making driving worse for car drivers, which would inevitably make it worse for buses in turn - the Streatham LTN is a key example of this. If TfL puts at least some more money into their bus priority infrastructure, buses could achieve much higher bus patronage, and people will naturally be attracted to reliable buses that are fast and frequent. As the saying goes, if you build it, they will come. I think it's also a case of proving that it works then they will come. You can build something but if it doesn't work then people won't come. While I'd largely say the Superloop is a success, there was the initial impression that the SL2 will get hammered between Ilford and Barking (myself being one of them) but I don't think I've ever seen a single SL2 come from Ilford crowded, but plenty of EL1s, probably because it's twice as frequent and SL2s don't often overtake them as they just end up stuck behind them instead. Adequate bus priority and it'd be different. Even simple things like altering traffic light phasing which has been done amazingly in Barking Riverside, but they've not grasped along the North Circular by the Beckton Triangle Retail park, but then in all fairness it's a case of making the 366 suffer which goes East-West or the SL2 north-south. In contrast you have the Elizabeth Line which doesn't even need explanation. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on May 8, 2024 21:39:36 GMT
Infrastructure works will definitely have to be done for many routes to achieve the levels of success that they should be. Bus priority is an extremely vital part of any bus infrastructure, and is especially important for any express / Superloop route, and no route is complete without good reliability and frequency. It is a big shame that TfL have so often ignored bus priority, especially in recent times, for the sake of making driving worse for car drivers, which would inevitably make it worse for buses in turn - the Streatham LTN is a key example of this. If TfL puts at least some more money into their bus priority infrastructure, buses could achieve much higher bus patronage, and people will naturally be attracted to reliable buses that are fast and frequent. As the saying goes, if you build it, they will come. I think it's also a case of proving that it works then they will come. You can build something but if it doesn't work then people won't come. While I'd largely say the Superloop is a success, there was the initial impression that the SL2 will get hammered between Ilford and Barking (myself being one of them) but I don't think I've ever seen a single SL2 come from Ilford crowded, but plenty of EL1s, probably because it's twice as frequent and SL2s don't often overtake them as they just end up stuck behind them instead. Adequate bus priority and it'd be different. Even simple things like altering traffic light phasing which has been done amazingly in Barking Riverside, but they've not grasped along the North Circular by the Beckton Triangle Retail park, but then in all fairness it's a case of making the 366 suffer which goes East-West or the SL2 north-south. In contrast you have the Elizabeth Line which doesn't even need explanation. The flip side is that passengers might not come if you don't have the infrastructure to make it fast enough and thus successful enough. TfL are lucky that this hasn't really happened on any of the current Superloop routes so they've gotten away with pretty much 0 new infrastructure. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 10, 2024 9:07:46 GMT
Personally I think Stratford to Enfield and Harrow to Enfield would be a better split. Be very interesting to see what happens nonetheless. An Enfield & Edgware direct connection would be useful if that was to happen. I would sent it to Waltham Abbey via Sewardstone. |
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Post by thekbq14 on May 10, 2024 12:35:53 GMT
Indeed, that would not be too bad a replacement. Overall, not a fan of chopping the SL7 ... would make the journeys I would do untenable, meaning SWT it would be. Also not a fan of the N154 idea. It serves weird parts of Sutton and Carshalton, missing out the main bits of Sutton, Carshalton and Wallington. If a route needs to be extended from Croydon to Sutton, 403 or 412 seem the obvious candidates. Alternatively the 198, with something else doing the London Road - Thornton Heath section. Personally I like the route the 410 takes, and wouldn't really want it touched, although I have regularly seen the idea touted on here. I'll give my two cents in this being local to the area. I agree with you on the N154 option, I'm not a fan of it either, as like you said it does serve the more weird back-streety parts of Sutton in Benhill Avenue and serving only the northern part of the town centre, Carshalton Beeches missing out the main Carshalton Village and it skims past Wallington serving the Sainsbury's. I think the N154 works in the form of a Weekend night bus as an addition to the night tube or if it was to be converted Monday to Sunday it will need a route supplementing it to connect it to other parts of the network. Here's why I think a N726/NSL7 will work out as although it skips out the main part of Wallington, it will serve the main part of Carshalton, and will be the most direct route from to Croydon and Sutton, then from there up to Kingston which itself has the established N213 and also a night life due to it's university for example, then can go on further to Heathrow through the established N285 only issue will be length, but if the SL7 can operate successfully during the day then should be able to do the night where there is less traffic. Speaking of the SL7 I've already gave my thoughts but long story short although I understand why they want to split it, I don't agree with it being split, but if they had to split it, in my opinion Kingston would be better than Sutton to prevent the loss of the through journeys between Croydon and Kingston which is the most popular part of the route. With the Croydon to Sutton route, I think the 403 is the obvious answer similar frequency and routing to the 407 but way less traffic in the Sanderstead section compared to Brighton Road which ruins the 407, the 412 only runs at a 20 minute frequency so it will be way too infrequent for that section. The 198 does the Shirley to Thornton Heath section well, and if you change that one of the 119 or 194 will need rejigging to Thornton Heath otherwise Shirley residents will lose their link to Mayday Hospital which won't go down well. The 410 section between Wallington to Croydon although popular more so than the 407 in my eyes, the eastern side of the route is even more popular and does have it's reliability issues, so ideally I'd withdraw that section let the route focus on Croydon to Crystal Palace, and then extend the 433 over it to Wallington ideally as well it could be converted to DD if the residents allow, also maintains Wallington to East Croydon link too. |
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Post by southlondon413 on May 10, 2024 13:02:23 GMT
Overall, not a fan of chopping the SL7 ... would make the journeys I would do untenable, meaning SWT it would be. Also not a fan of the N154 idea. It serves weird parts of Sutton and Carshalton, missing out the main bits of Sutton, Carshalton and Wallington. If a route needs to be extended from Croydon to Sutton, 403 or 412 seem the obvious candidates. Alternatively the 198, with something else doing the London Road - Thornton Heath section. Personally I like the route the 410 takes, and wouldn't really want it touched, although I have regularly seen the idea touted on here. I'll give my two cents in this being local to the area. I agree with you on the N154 option, I'm not a fan of it either, as like you said it does serve the more weird back-streety parts of Sutton in Benhill Avenue and serving only the northern part of the town centre, Carshalton Beeches missing out the main Carshalton Village and it skims past Wallington serving the Sainsbury's. I think the N154 works in the form of a Weekend night bus as an addition to the night tube or if it was to be converted Monday to Sunday it will need a route supplementing it to connect it to other parts of the network. Here's why I think a N726/NSL7 will work out as although it skips out the main part of Wallington, it will serve the main part of Carshalton, and will be the most direct route from to Croydon and Sutton, then from there up to Kingston which itself has the established N213 and also a night life due to it's university for example, then can go on further to Heathrow through the established N285 only issue will be length, but if the SL7 can operate successfully during the day then should be able to do the night where there is less traffic. Speaking of the SL7 I've already gave my thoughts but long story short although I understand why they want to split it, I don't agree with it being split, but if they had to split it, in my opinion Kingston would be better than Sutton to prevent the loss of the through journeys between Croydon and Kingston which is the most popular part of the route. With the Croydon to Sutton route, I think the 403 is the obvious answer similar frequency and routing to the 407 but way less traffic in the Sanderstead section compared to Brighton Road which ruins the 407, the 412 only runs at a 20 minute frequency so it will be way too infrequent for that section. The 198 does the Shirley to Thornton Heath section well, and if you change that one of the 119 or 194 will need rejigging to Thornton Heath otherwise Shirley residents will lose their link to Mayday Hospital which won't go down well. The 410 section between Wallington to Croydon although popular more so than the 407 in my eyes, the eastern side of the route is even more popular and does have it's reliability issues, so ideally I'd withdraw that section let the route focus on Croydon to Crystal Palace, and then extend the 433 over it to Wallington ideally as well it could be converted to DD if the residents allow, also maintains Wallington to East Croydon link too. There isn’t enough demand to justify having an N285, N213 and an NSL7. Kingston, Croydon and Sutton barely have any nightlife anymore. Kingston has one remaining nightclub down from about 5-6 when I went to uni in 2009. Besides students these days are more used to going to bars and pubs which close far earlier than nightclubs. Having the NSL7 isn’t a suitable replacement as even in suburban New Malden and Sutton it isn’t safe to walk alone at night. If you cut the N285 or N213 then TfL may as well launch its own minicab firm as that’s all people would use which would further destabilise the night economy. As for the SL7 cut I’ve long suggested every other bus should continue onto Heathrow and be coordinated to provide an every 15 minute service between Croydon and Kingston with an every 30 minute service onwards to Heathrow. It would take a bit of tech and a lot of coordination but could easily work. |
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Post by thekbq14 on May 10, 2024 18:16:11 GMT
I'll give my two cents in this being local to the area. I agree with you on the N154 option, I'm not a fan of it either, as like you said it does serve the more weird back-streety parts of Sutton in Benhill Avenue and serving only the northern part of the town centre, Carshalton Beeches missing out the main Carshalton Village and it skims past Wallington serving the Sainsbury's. I think the N154 works in the form of a Weekend night bus as an addition to the night tube or if it was to be converted Monday to Sunday it will need a route supplementing it to connect it to other parts of the network. Here's why I think a N726/NSL7 will work out as although it skips out the main part of Wallington, it will serve the main part of Carshalton, and will be the most direct route from to Croydon and Sutton, then from there up to Kingston which itself has the established N213 and also a night life due to it's university for example, then can go on further to Heathrow through the established N285 only issue will be length, but if the SL7 can operate successfully during the day then should be able to do the night where there is less traffic. Speaking of the SL7 I've already gave my thoughts but long story short although I understand why they want to split it, I don't agree with it being split, but if they had to split it, in my opinion Kingston would be better than Sutton to prevent the loss of the through journeys between Croydon and Kingston which is the most popular part of the route. With the Croydon to Sutton route, I think the 403 is the obvious answer similar frequency and routing to the 407 but way less traffic in the Sanderstead section compared to Brighton Road which ruins the 407, the 412 only runs at a 20 minute frequency so it will be way too infrequent for that section. The 198 does the Shirley to Thornton Heath section well, and if you change that one of the 119 or 194 will need rejigging to Thornton Heath otherwise Shirley residents will lose their link to Mayday Hospital which won't go down well. The 410 section between Wallington to Croydon although popular more so than the 407 in my eyes, the eastern side of the route is even more popular and does have it's reliability issues, so ideally I'd withdraw that section let the route focus on Croydon to Crystal Palace, and then extend the 433 over it to Wallington ideally as well it could be converted to DD if the residents allow, also maintains Wallington to East Croydon link too. There isn’t enough demand to justify having an N285, N213 and an NSL7. Kingston, Croydon and Sutton barely have any nightlife anymore. Kingston has one remaining nightclub down from about 5-6 when I went to uni in 2009. Besides students these days are more used to going to bars and pubs which close far earlier than nightclubs. Having the NSL7 isn’t a suitable replacement as even in suburban New Malden and Sutton it isn’t safe to walk alone at night. If you cut the N285 or N213 then TfL may as well launch its own minicab firm as that’s all people would use which would further destabilise the night economy. As for the SL7 cut I’ve long suggested every other bus should continue onto Heathrow and be coordinated to provide an every 15 minute service between Croydon and Kingston with an every 30 minute service onwards to Heathrow. It would take a bit of tech and a lot of coordination but could easily work. I agree that there isn't enough demand for having all 3 routes running at once, in this current night time economy so I would extend the N213 from Sutton to Croydon through the current 407 routing, and if reliability and the length of the route allows then I would also merge it with the N285 having a Croydon to Heathrow night route, thus covering the majority of angles that the SL7 serves albeit it serving all stops between Teddington to Heathrow, a little detour through New Malden High Street and Kingston Hospital which at night will be an added bonus whilst the N87 can keep serving Kingston Road/Norbiton. Whilst for Sutton a loop can be done through St Nicholas Way, Marshall Road and Throwley Road to maintain all parts of the town centre is covered although this could significantly increase the journey time. I do agree with you that an every other bus to Heathrow will be ideal, but sadly I can't imagine TfL who are known at this current time to streamline services to do this and if they do something like that, I can see them renumbering or splitting the route off. |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 11, 2024 16:52:20 GMT
I saw an article where Khan was saying he will be talking to a Labour government about the 2030 dealine (we know that already ofcourse) but also about Superloop 2. That would suggest to me no initial plans to proceed at present until more money is available.
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on May 11, 2024 17:20:50 GMT
I saw an article where Khan was saying he will be talking to a Labour government about the 2030 dealine (we know that already ofcourse) but also about Superloop 2. That would suggest to me no initial plans to proceed at present until more money is available. Do you have a link to this article? |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 11, 2024 17:22:05 GMT
I saw an article where Khan was saying he will be talking to a Labour government about the 2030 dealine (we know that already ofcourse) but also about Superloop 2. That would suggest to me no initial plans to proceed at present until more money is available. Do you have a link to this article? No I'll have to try and see if I can find it again. |
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Post by yunus on May 12, 2024 0:36:18 GMT
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