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Post by londonbusboy on Jun 16, 2010 17:39:39 GMT
Hi all,
On BBC news tonight was a story about the conservatives thinking about making Underground trains driverless and driven by a computer like the DLR.
The conservatives want to save £100 million of the wages they give to LU drivers each year.
I believe safety will be comprimised as say if someone jumps under a driverless train what will happen? The train will simply carry on.
You also have the thought of another terrorist attack what will happen if a bomb goes off?
What are your views on this subject?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2010 19:33:22 GMT
I think its better to have a driver! On the DLR, its not so bad, as not so much is underground, it doesn't go so fast as a tube train, and the guard (can't remember the proper name) is always on board and they can easily walk from end to end of the train as the carriages are all connected like the new Victoria Line and London Overground trains.
Hopefully London Overground will only do this IF there is a guard on board, and if all the carriages are like those on the Victoria and London Overground lines
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Post by Steve09 on Jun 16, 2010 21:18:30 GMT
They aren't guards, they are Passenger Service Assistants It is too my understanding that they can take control of the train when needs be. I say this because I have sat at the front of a DLR many times and they use their key to open up a box at the front of the train which houses a large number of buttons, which I think control door opening / closing and acceleration/braking etc, and many more functions I would believe. The section between King George VI and Woolwich Arsenal stations, underneath the River Thames is very fast I would say. Almost comparable to speeds I have experienced on the Jubilee.
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Post by john on Jun 16, 2010 22:33:02 GMT
The PSA can take direct control of the train from the front. In fact, notices at the front inform passengers that they may have to vacate their seats if required to do so for the PSA to operate the train. DLR units can also travel up to about 40/45 mph, which isn't much different to alot of LUL limits. Finally, there's a few sections of DLR track that run underground!! As Steve09 has pointed out, the section between King George V and Woolwich Arsenal is one, plus between Greenwich and Mudchute and Shadwell to Bank. The fact that the DLR has been operating in this way for 15 years (roughly) makes it the perfect template to use for converting the Underground. Problems could arise on section like the Central where speeds are increased thought this can be overcome by having a PSA on board like the DLR, who can take control when they need to. Also, the trains will still be "controlled" as the computer system will be the driver. The signals will be relayed to the train, at which point the computer will slow the train down and stop it at the correct position. The risk of a jumper is no higher or lower with or without a driver. If anything, the chances of a PSA seeing it are greatly reduced, though it would increase the chances of a passenger seeing it. Although, with a Student Union bar right next to the DLR at Cyprus station, i'm suprised there hasn't been any incident of jumpers Again, what TfL will look at is how successful this system works on the DLR and try to implement it within the Underground network What it seems to me is that the RMT are scaremongering again. As long as the technology is in place, with the correct safety mechanisms, INCLUDING the PSA, then i'm sure it could work perfectly well. I doubt it would be implemented for a long time though IF it got the go ahead. The cost of implementing this kind of technology could possibly outweigh the savings initially, especially if you take into account the possible loss of earnings (not revenue) that LUL could suffer from the work needed to carry out this further upgrade
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Post by RM5chris on Jun 18, 2010 9:53:48 GMT
They aren't guards, they are Passenger Service Assistants It may have been somebody pulling my leg, but someone told me a few years ago that they were called 'Captains'....train captain etc. As I say not certain if this is correct or not but ever since I have always thought of them as such.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 10:15:40 GMT
They aren't guards, they are Passenger Service Assistants It may have been somebody pulling my leg, but someone told me a few years ago that they were called 'Captains'....train captain etc. As I say not certain if this is correct or not but ever since I have always thought of them as such. No, you are quite correct. The on board person on the DLR trains WERE referred to as 'train captains'. I do not remember any 'formal' annnouncement of a change in title to the present term, the old one just seemed to fade into obscurity!
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Post by john on Jun 18, 2010 10:38:32 GMT
It may have been somebody pulling my leg, but someone told me a few years ago that they were called 'Captains'....train captain etc. As I say not certain if this is correct or not but ever since I have always thought of them as such. No, you are quite correct. The on board person on the DLR trains WERE referred to as 'train captains'. I do not remember any 'formal' annnouncement of a change in title to the present term, the old one just seemed to fade into obscurity! Didn't know they were called Captains Although it's plastered all about the front/rear of the units about them being called PSA's
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 16:07:52 GMT
So, is there much point in getting rid of drivers, if you still have to employ a PSA?
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Post by john on Jun 18, 2010 16:21:11 GMT
So, is there much point in getting rid of drivers, if you still have to employ a PSA? I think the reasoning is that, with reduced responsibility, they can reduce wages to reflect this, hence saving money. Not sure if that is what is going through their brains, but i'm sure it would have been looked at
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Post by Tangy on Jun 19, 2010 19:01:24 GMT
Lets not forget, the Victoria Line has been "driverless" ever since it opened. The Victoria Line works on ATO (Automatic Train Operation).
At the end of a station stop (when the doors have been closed) the train operator presses the "start" buttons once ready to pull away from a station, the train will automatically drive itself to the next station responding to track signals to how whether the line ahead is clear or not. The train operator is only there to operate the doors and to operate the manual brake controller should the train decides it wants to overshoot the platform!
A similar system is in use on the Central Line (except on Sundays when trains are driven in manual mode) and the Jubilee line is also due to switch over to ATO once the over running signalling works are completed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 20:07:05 GMT
Lets not forget, the Victoria Line has been "driverless" ever since it opened. The Victoria Line works on ATO (Automatic Train Operation). At the end of a station stop (when the doors have been closed) the train operator presses the "start" buttons once ready to pull away from a station, the train will automatically drive itself to the next station responding to track signals to how whether the line ahead is clear or not. The train operator is only there to operate the doors and to operate the manual brake controller should the train decides it wants to overshoot the platform! A similar system is in use on the Central Line (except on Sundays when trains are driven in manual mode) and the Jubilee line is also due to switch over to ATO once the over running signalling works are completed. Interesting information there Tangy! Didn't know that about the Central Line being manual on Sundays...i'll have to see if I can see a difference in ride quality ;D And I heard that the Central Line runs manually between Leytonstone and Epping...is that correct? I did know the Victoria and Central worked on ATO, but its good that there is a train operator monitoring things. Thats what people are worried about...there being no members of staff in control of the train.
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Post by jrussa on Jun 20, 2010 21:24:35 GMT
Lets not forget, the Victoria Line has been "driverless" ever since it opened. The Victoria Line works on ATO (Automatic Train Operation). At the end of a station stop (when the doors have been closed) the train operator presses the "start" buttons once ready to pull away from a station, the train will automatically drive itself to the next station responding to track signals to how whether the line ahead is clear or not. The train operator is only there to operate the doors and to operate the manual brake controller should the train decides it wants to overshoot the platform! A similar system is in use on the Central Line (except on Sundays when trains are driven in manual mode) and the Jubilee line is also due to switch over to ATO once the over running signalling works are completed. Interesting information there Tangy! Didn't know that about the Central Line being manual on Sundays...i'll have to see if I can see a difference in ride quality ;D And I heard that the Central Line runs manually between Leytonstone and Epping...is that correct? I did know the Victoria and Central worked on ATO, but its good that there is a train operator monitoring things. Thats what people are worried about...there being no members of staff in control of the train. If the Central Line is manual on sunday's, it now makes sense why sometimes the train approaches stations such as Snaresbrook and South Woodford a bit faster Regarding the driveless LU trains, I would prefer if there was a driver, even though the driver does not have much to do. As what someone stated, what happens if someone jumps infront of the train. There would be almost certainly no chance of stopping the train in time, but I guess that depends on the speed of the train when approaching stations. For example the Central Line, it approaches most stations pretty fast, unlike the District Line, based on my opinion! Also in addition, even if there was PSA's on the trains you would need more than 1 per a train. For example, the central line, you would need at least 3-4 per a train. Finally, I believe that it was Steve who first mentioned about the PSA's can sometimes operate the DLR from the front. Ys, that is true. I remember from in the late 90's, until at least 5 years ago, the PSA's use to and probably still do, allow people to open and close the doors at the station, especially little children/kids. I got to do once about 9-10 years ago lol.
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Post by john on Jun 20, 2010 21:39:11 GMT
Regarding the driveless LU trains, I would prefer if there was a driver, even though the driver does not have much to do. As what someone stated, what happens if someone jumps infront of the train. There would be almost certainly no chance of stopping the train in time, but I guess that depends on the speed of the train when approaching stations. For example the Central Line, it approaches most stations pretty fast, unlike the District Line, based on my opinion! Sorry, can't agree with you on that one in any shape or form. My dad has an incident while driving a 315 into Romford a few years back where someone jumped in front of him. He was a stopping service too, so was already braking heavily. Thankfully he missed him, but the point is, no matter what speed you're doing, or how quickly you see them, the chances of being hit are all the same. Everyone has their own reaction time speeds, plus you have the chance of human error occuring. In fact, i don't think you could use the arguement of jumpers as any basis to stop this type of conversion occuring
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 21:48:23 GMT
Regarding the driveless LU trains, I would prefer if there was a driver, even though the driver does not have much to do. As what someone stated, what happens if someone jumps infront of the train. There would be almost certainly no chance of stopping the train in time, but I guess that depends on the speed of the train when approaching stations. For example the Central Line, it approaches most stations pretty fast, unlike the District Line, based on my opinion! Sorry, can't agree with you on that one in any shape or form. My dad has an incident while driving a 315 into Romford a few years back where someone jumped in front of him. He was a stopping service too, so was already braking heavily. Thankfully he missed him, but the point is, no matter what speed you're doing, or how quickly you see them, the chances of being hit are all the same. Everyone has their own reaction time speeds, plus you have the chance of human error occuring. In fact, i don't think you could use the arguement of jumpers as any basis to stop this type of conversion occuring Totally agree with your sentiment here. Soon, if the same line of though gained support, we would have a 'person' walking in front of trains with a large red flag! ;D
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Post by Tangy on Jun 21, 2010 20:43:25 GMT
Interesting information there Tangy! Didn't know that about the Central Line being manual on Sundays...i'll have to see if I can see a difference in ride quality ;D And I heard that the Central Line runs manually between Leytonstone and Epping...is that correct? I did know the Victoria and Central worked on ATO, but its good that there is a train operator monitoring things. Thats what people are worried about...there being no members of staff in control of the train. For more information on the operation of the ATO signalling system installed on the Central Line, see this very informative page www.davros.org/rail/signalling/articles/central.htmlBy saying that the the 92 stock is driven manaully on Sunday, I should of been more specific, it is known as Coded Manual, where the driver uses the in cab controls but the ATO system still keeps tabs on the train, so that the target speed is still met for example.
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