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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 12, 2022 10:04:38 GMT
Plus I'm a general believer on here that the 234 would be a good option because I don't imagine everyone driving up the A1000 suddenly disembarks at The Spires or St Albans Road, there is definitely demand from south of Barnet to north of Potters Bar. Perhaps running an every 20 minute 234 from Hampstead Heath/Finchley Road O2 Centre to Barnet The Spires route and then having an overlap of maybe a 234A from Muswell Hill to Potters Bar also running every 20 minutes with an x10 service between Muswell Hill & Barnet The Spires to sustain capacity. With all due respect, you can’t ask for a fares rise but then equally ask for a more expensive extension in the 234 when a 383 extension would be far more economical and probably match demand on that section Yes but why I suggested that was because it could then transfer long distance journeys from the car to a bus. The 383 is not a direct alternative so might be a bit harder to reduce car journeys however I do understand why the 383 will probably be extended is down to cost. Also the reason I asked for slightly higher fares was so the network could receive more investment and the debt perhaps being started to pay off. The network has stagnated at £1.50 and what we’ve seen is downgrading of services so perhaps looking into higher fares might be a solution?
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Post by cl54 on Feb 12, 2022 10:56:36 GMT
With all due respect, you can’t ask for a fares rise but then equally ask for a more expensive extension in the 234 when a 383 extension would be far more economical and probably match demand on that section Yes but why I suggested that was because it could then transfer long distance journeys from the car to a bus. The 383 is not a direct alternative so might be a bit harder to reduce car journeys however I do understand why the 383 will probably be extended is down to cost. Also the reason I asked for slightly higher fares was so the network could receive more investment and the debt perhaps being started to pay off. The network has stagnated at £1.50 and what we’ve seen is downgrading of services so perhaps looking into higher fares might be a solution? London Buses are cashless so charging different fares would not be simple if not impossible.
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Post by danorak on Feb 12, 2022 12:32:48 GMT
Sullivan Buses has released a map of their planned 84 route. Of note is that the route will operate an anti-clockwise one way loop around Potters Bar via Mutton Lane, High Street, Darkes Lane and the Station. There will also be school journeys to and from St Albans Girls School and Townsend School.A timetable will follow when it has been finalised. Interestingly, the map depicts the route in green, suggesting that the "tradition" of red buses on the 84 may be discontinued. www.sullivanbuses.co.uk/html/sb8latest.htmlwww.sullivanbuses.co.uk/maps/map84.pdfI was wondering how any Herts 84 replacement would deal with the Darkes Lane section, giving that terminating at PB would almost certainly be ruled out and that section is not TfL's problem. A loop seems sensible. If there is a TfL 84 replacement I suppose it will run direct to Potters Bar Station, or stop at PB if Metroline operate it.
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Feb 12, 2022 12:38:09 GMT
Sullivan Buses has released a map of their planned 84 route. Of note is that the route will operate an anti-clockwise one way loop around Potters Bar via Mutton Lane, High Street, Darkes Lane and the Station. There will also be school journeys to and from St Albans Girls School and Townsend School.A timetable will follow when it has been finalised. Interestingly, the map depicts the route in green, suggesting that the "tradition" of red buses on the 84 may be discontinued. www.sullivanbuses.co.uk/html/sb8latest.htmlwww.sullivanbuses.co.uk/maps/map84.pdfI was wondering how any Herts 84 replacement would deal with the Darkes Lane section, giving that terminating at PB would almost certainly be ruled out and that section is not TfL's problem. A loop seems sensible. If there is a TfL 84 replacement I suppose it will run direct to Potters Bar Station, or stop at PB if Metroline operate it. In the map a Darkes Lane loop is shown.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 12, 2022 23:05:20 GMT
With all due respect, you can’t ask for a fares rise but then equally ask for a more expensive extension in the 234 when a 383 extension would be far more economical and probably match demand on that section Yes but why I suggested that was because it could then transfer long distance journeys from the car to a bus. The 383 is not a direct alternative so might be a bit harder to reduce car journeys however I do understand why the 383 will probably be extended is down to cost. Also the reason I asked for slightly higher fares was so the network could receive more investment and the debt perhaps being started to pay off. The network has stagnated at £1.50 and what we’ve seen is downgrading of services so perhaps looking into higher fares might be a solution? I understand the suggestion but right now, the main thing is to safeguard a link along that section and if no one is going to fund an expensive extension like the 234, the next best thing is safeguard it with a cheaper 383 extension that could benefit by removing car journeys from Barnet & the surrounding areas to Potters Bar As to your second point, there is no guarantee at all you'll receive more investment if fares go up - it all depends on whether people actually want to pay more and given we're facing a terrible cost of living crisis where food, energy among other things have and will continue to shoot up, the last people need is for fares to do the same which they already are on national rail. The network didn't stagnate at £1.50 - the subsidy was needlessly removed by the previous mayor and the current mayor decided to be equally silly by implementing a fares freeze on top. I'm not against a fares rise but when you start throwing in things like removing benefits to kids or pensioners (which let me remind everyone, I get no benefit from as I have no kids and I'm not a OAP) or a premium fare on night routes, you are going to cause a lot more harm than good both to the customer and to revenue.
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Post by WH241 on Feb 12, 2022 23:13:19 GMT
Yes but why I suggested that was because it could then transfer long distance journeys from the car to a bus. The 383 is not a direct alternative so might be a bit harder to reduce car journeys however I do understand why the 383 will probably be extended is down to cost. Also the reason I asked for slightly higher fares was so the network could receive more investment and the debt perhaps being started to pay off. The network has stagnated at £1.50 and what we’ve seen is downgrading of services so perhaps looking into higher fares might be a solution? I understand the suggestion but right now, the main thing is to safeguard a link along that section and if no one is going to fund an expensive extension like the 234, the next best thing is safeguard it with a cheaper 383 extension that could benefit by removing car journeys from Barnet & the surrounding areas to Potters Bar As to your second point, there is no guarantee at all you'll receive more investment if fares go up - it all depends on whether people actually want to pay more and given we're facing a terrible cost of living crisis where food, energy among other things have and will continue to shoot up, the last people need is for fares to do the same which they already are on national rail. The network didn't stagnate at £1.50 - the subsidy was needlessly removed by the previous mayor and the current mayor decided to be equally silly by implementing a fares freeze on top. I'm not against a fares rise but when you start throwing in things like removing benefits to kids or pensioners (which let me remind everyone, I get no benefit from as I have no kids and I'm not a OAP) or a premium fare on night routes, you are going to cause a lot more harm than good both to the customer and to revenue. A flip side of the cost of living increasing could mean more people are forced back into buses as they can no longer afford Uber or even train fares in some cases.
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Post by cl54 on Feb 13, 2022 20:20:35 GMT
Yes but why I suggested that was because it could then transfer long distance journeys from the car to a bus. The 383 is not a direct alternative so might be a bit harder to reduce car journeys however I do understand why the 383 will probably be extended is down to cost. Also the reason I asked for slightly higher fares was so the network could receive more investment and the debt perhaps being started to pay off. The network has stagnated at £1.50 and what we’ve seen is downgrading of services so perhaps looking into higher fares might be a solution? I understand the suggestion but right now, the main thing is to safeguard a link along that section and if no one is going to fund an expensive extension like the 234, the next best thing is safeguard it with a cheaper 383 extension that could benefit by removing car journeys from Barnet & the surrounding areas to Potters Bar As to your second point, there is no guarantee at all you'll receive more investment if fares go up - it all depends on whether people actually want to pay more and given we're facing a terrible cost of living crisis where food, energy among other things have and will continue to shoot up, the last people need is for fares to do the same which they already are on national rail. The network didn't stagnate at £1.50 - the subsidy was needlessly removed by the previous mayor and the current mayor decided to be equally silly by implementing a fares freeze on top. I'm not against a fares rise but when you start throwing in things like removing benefits to kids or pensioners (which let me remind everyone, I get no benefit from as I have no kids and I'm not a OAP) or a premium fare on night routes, you are going to cause a lot more harm than good both to the customer and to revenue. The whole of the existing 84 is registered as a commercial service by Metroline i.e. the takings on the route need to cover costs and produce a profit. This is not happening at present. There is no obligation on the part of TfL to replace the section not taken up by Sullivan Buses.
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 13, 2022 20:47:17 GMT
I understand the suggestion but right now, the main thing is to safeguard a link along that section and if no one is going to fund an expensive extension like the 234, the next best thing is safeguard it with a cheaper 383 extension that could benefit by removing car journeys from Barnet & the surrounding areas to Potters Bar As to your second point, there is no guarantee at all you'll receive more investment if fares go up - it all depends on whether people actually want to pay more and given we're facing a terrible cost of living crisis where food, energy among other things have and will continue to shoot up, the last people need is for fares to do the same which they already are on national rail. The network didn't stagnate at £1.50 - the subsidy was needlessly removed by the previous mayor and the current mayor decided to be equally silly by implementing a fares freeze on top. I'm not against a fares rise but when you start throwing in things like removing benefits to kids or pensioners (which let me remind everyone, I get no benefit from as I have no kids and I'm not a OAP) or a premium fare on night routes, you are going to cause a lot more harm than good both to the customer and to revenue. The whole of the existing 84 is registered as a commercial service by Metroline i.e. the takings on the route need to cover costs and produce a profit. This is not happening at present. There is no obligation on the part of TfL to replace the section not taken up by Sullivan Buses. I agree. There is little part of the 84 in Greater London so taking on the route to Potter Bar could be a cost they don't recoup at all. That said I do think the 383 would be the most cost effective option as opposed to even a 375 route that would inevitably end up probably needing to run to New Barnet to stand whereas the 383 already reaches the Spires which is around 20 mins from Potters Bar Station.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 13, 2022 22:34:17 GMT
I understand the suggestion but right now, the main thing is to safeguard a link along that section and if no one is going to fund an expensive extension like the 234, the next best thing is safeguard it with a cheaper 383 extension that could benefit by removing car journeys from Barnet & the surrounding areas to Potters Bar As to your second point, there is no guarantee at all you'll receive more investment if fares go up - it all depends on whether people actually want to pay more and given we're facing a terrible cost of living crisis where food, energy among other things have and will continue to shoot up, the last people need is for fares to do the same which they already are on national rail. The network didn't stagnate at £1.50 - the subsidy was needlessly removed by the previous mayor and the current mayor decided to be equally silly by implementing a fares freeze on top. I'm not against a fares rise but when you start throwing in things like removing benefits to kids or pensioners (which let me remind everyone, I get no benefit from as I have no kids and I'm not a OAP) or a premium fare on night routes, you are going to cause a lot more harm than good both to the customer and to revenue. The whole of the existing 84 is registered as a commercial service by Metroline i.e. the takings on the route need to cover costs and produce a profit. This is not happening at present. There is no obligation on the part of TfL to replace the section not taken up by Sullivan Buses. Never said there was an obligation nor did I say anything will actually happen - my reply was merely to LondonNorthern original post and that's it.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 14, 2022 19:04:41 GMT
Courtesy of Mr Sullivan himself, from The Londoner Facebook group:
Apologies for not posting sooner - its been a bit hectic at this end. As already mentioned elsewhere, we have agreed to step in and operate the 84 from Saturday 2nd April. The service will operate daily between St Albans and Potters Bar Station, then form an anti-clockwise loop via Mutton Lane, High Street & Church Road. As a result I spent the weekend loading our schedulers timetable onto Omni (which ultimately runs our staff payroll) and to Ticketer (the ticket machines). The latter is quite hellish. I still have the ticket designs to do, a publicity shot for the timetable leaflet, and so on. Lewie Geen is kindly doing the digital blind displays. The timetable is every 30 mins during shopping hours (theres a few bigger gaps during the peaks due to the school movements associated with the route – which I want to close), 90mins evenings and hourly on a Sunday. Will be mostly double deck M-Fri due to the school movements. The intention is that we will operate Green buses on the route, but you know us – anything goes! Hopefully I will get a chance to pen an article for The Londoner this week. So watch this space.
In addition, Mr Sullivan has said it is likely that the 84 will use Enviro 400’s but that other double deckers might deputise on occasion
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Post by wirewiper on Feb 16, 2022 14:11:29 GMT
Courtesy of Mr Sullivan himself, from The Londoner Facebook group: Apologies for not posting sooner - its been a bit hectic at this end. As already mentioned elsewhere, we have agreed to step in and operate the 84 from Saturday 2nd April. The service will operate daily between St Albans and Potters Bar Station, then form an anti-clockwise loop via Mutton Lane, High Street & Church Road. As a result I spent the weekend loading our schedulers timetable onto Omni (which ultimately runs our staff payroll) and to Ticketer (the ticket machines). The latter is quite hellish. I still have the ticket designs to do, a publicity shot for the timetable leaflet, and so on. Lewie Geen is kindly doing the digital blind displays. The timetable is every 30 mins during shopping hours (theres a few bigger gaps during the peaks due to the school movements associated with the route – which I want to close), 90mins evenings and hourly on a Sunday. Will be mostly double deck M-Fri due to the school movements. The intention is that we will operate Green buses on the route, but you know us – anything goes! Hopefully I will get a chance to pen an article for The Londoner this week. So watch this space. In addition, Mr Sullivan has said it is likely that the 84 will use Enviro 400’s but that other double deckers might deputise on occasion Sullivan Buses website "Latest News" states that five Enviro400s are due in March "for services in Hertfordshire", so it is likely these will be for the 84 and will appear in Sullivan's green livery. If the 306's Enviro200s are anything to go by, some of them at least will carry route branding.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 16, 2022 14:27:19 GMT
Courtesy of Mr Sullivan himself, from The Londoner Facebook group: Apologies for not posting sooner - its been a bit hectic at this end. As already mentioned elsewhere, we have agreed to step in and operate the 84 from Saturday 2nd April. The service will operate daily between St Albans and Potters Bar Station, then form an anti-clockwise loop via Mutton Lane, High Street & Church Road. As a result I spent the weekend loading our schedulers timetable onto Omni (which ultimately runs our staff payroll) and to Ticketer (the ticket machines). The latter is quite hellish. I still have the ticket designs to do, a publicity shot for the timetable leaflet, and so on. Lewie Geen is kindly doing the digital blind displays. The timetable is every 30 mins during shopping hours (theres a few bigger gaps during the peaks due to the school movements associated with the route – which I want to close), 90mins evenings and hourly on a Sunday. Will be mostly double deck M-Fri due to the school movements. The intention is that we will operate Green buses on the route, but you know us – anything goes! Hopefully I will get a chance to pen an article for The Londoner this week. So watch this space. In addition, Mr Sullivan has said it is likely that the 84 will use Enviro 400’s but that other double deckers might deputise on occasion Sullivan Buses website "Latest News" states that five Enviro400s are due in March "for services in Hertfordshire", so it is likely these will be for the 84 and will appear in Sullivan's green livery. If the 306's Enviro200s are anything to go by, some of them at least will carry route branding. TE886-890 most likely or could be the 5 recently withdrawn from the 210/263. Don’t know it they’d go out their way to get something from Ensign like the ones from the 345.
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Feb 16, 2022 14:29:28 GMT
Courtesy of Mr Sullivan himself, from The Londoner Facebook group: Apologies for not posting sooner - its been a bit hectic at this end. As already mentioned elsewhere, we have agreed to step in and operate the 84 from Saturday 2nd April. The service will operate daily between St Albans and Potters Bar Station, then form an anti-clockwise loop via Mutton Lane, High Street & Church Road. As a result I spent the weekend loading our schedulers timetable onto Omni (which ultimately runs our staff payroll) and to Ticketer (the ticket machines). The latter is quite hellish. I still have the ticket designs to do, a publicity shot for the timetable leaflet, and so on. Lewie Geen is kindly doing the digital blind displays. The timetable is every 30 mins during shopping hours (theres a few bigger gaps during the peaks due to the school movements associated with the route – which I want to close), 90mins evenings and hourly on a Sunday. Will be mostly double deck M-Fri due to the school movements. The intention is that we will operate Green buses on the route, but you know us – anything goes! Hopefully I will get a chance to pen an article for The Londoner this week. So watch this space. In addition, Mr Sullivan has said it is likely that the 84 will use Enviro 400’s but that other double deckers might deputise on occasion Sullivan Buses website "Latest News" states that five Enviro400s are due in March "for services in Hertfordshire", so it is likely these will be for the 84 and will appear in Sullivan's green livery. If the 306's Enviro200s are anything to go by, some of them at least will carry route branding. I wouldn't be surprised if these were some of the Abellio E400's on the Ensign website.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 16, 2022 14:33:29 GMT
Sullivan Buses website "Latest News" states that five Enviro400s are due in March "for services in Hertfordshire", so it is likely these will be for the 84 and will appear in Sullivan's green livery. If the 306's Enviro200s are anything to go by, some of them at least will carry route branding. I wouldn't be surprised if these were some of the Abellio E400's on the Ensign website. Would be illogical if there are Enviros already on the 84 as they can just transfer over.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 16, 2022 14:42:58 GMT
I’ve noticed that Sullivan Buses have now withdrawn EVL2, EVL3, EVL9 & ALX6.
I imagine with the contracts coming up for the 628/653/683/688 in September this will probably see off 11 DDs (not including spares which could probably see absolutely everything off) to perhaps join the Commercial Fleet, with this I imagine we’ll see the number of deckers within the fleet ~20 years old deplete.
It would be the exact number to see off all the WVLs & ELVs, only leaving DEL1 & the pair of tridents.
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