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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 6, 2019 12:21:51 GMT
To be honest still seems a slightly odd selection of routes to be gaining such expensive buses. I am actually quite happy to see a couple of non high profile routes getting electric vehicles. Allocation of electric vehicles should not be concentrated solely in zone 1. With the ULEZ expansion in 2021, I am sure residents especially in Waltham Forest would appreciate the difference in air quality. Probably to do with that numpty anti car councillor Clyde Loakes. Wouldn't be surprised he would try to influence Khan to get them.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 6, 2019 12:36:48 GMT
Goodness me what a lot of excitement about a few electric buses. Clearly it plays well politically with the Mayor and the timing is not long before the election. Not sure about this "lobby" given the routes covered stretch across North London plus Tory Chingford. Everyone will get electric buses eventually - no one said the roll out was going to be wholly logical. There will always be apparent inconsistencies on a large network like TfL's. Please about tory Chingford, the council IS labour end of, regardless of constituencies. LBWF is full of s### imo, they are the biggest hypocrites the Loakes, Stella Creasey and Robins amongst the bent crooks that operate there. They have created hell for most people with CPZ's all over the borough by artificially creating parking problems, by keep introducing CPZ's then when people go to park in a area that does not have it, others then complain they cannot park, then they introduce another. There were a lot of places within the borough that NEVER had any parking problems, but then CPZ were created. Its an extra earner for the council. They have wasted millions on the mini Holland, in the worst case closing off many side streets and then making the main roads stationary for much of the day, creating more pollution. They virtually had NO hybrid or even electric vehicles around 2 years ago, but then have the check to be telling people to buy them. When people in Waltham Forest I know complain about mini Holland, then I find out they voted for Labour, I tell them they deserve it and good, which they seem gobsmacked. A route like 357 is a tragic waste
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 6, 2019 13:38:31 GMT
Goodness me what a lot of excitement about a few electric buses. Clearly it plays well politically with the Mayor and the timing is not long before the election. Not sure about this "lobby" given the routes covered stretch across North London plus Tory Chingford. Everyone will get electric buses eventually - no one said the roll out was going to be wholly logical. There will always be apparent inconsistencies on a large network like TfL's. On the subject of electric vehicles in general, one thing I've yet to read about is this-with the lemming like rush by the greens and all the other parties who want us to go electric, where and how is the government of the day going to find a replacement for the £2billion+ which they collect in excise duty? Just a thought
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Post by redbus on Oct 6, 2019 18:37:23 GMT
Goodness me what a lot of excitement about a few electric buses. Clearly it plays well politically with the Mayor and the timing is not long before the election. Not sure about this "lobby" given the routes covered stretch across North London plus Tory Chingford. Everyone will get electric buses eventually - no one said the roll out was going to be wholly logical. There will always be apparent inconsistencies on a large network like TfL's. It is really good to see posts again by you snoggle , you have been sorely missed and I hope you are recovering well.
I agree that the introduction of electric was never going to be entirely logical, but I am really struggling to see the logic. I would have expected roads / areas with the worst pollution issues to be prioritised, eg Marylebone Road, Oxford Street. It is a bit rich to complain about pollution in Oxford Street being particularly bad as the Mayor has done, and then when you have a chance to do something about it such as electric buses, not to even convert one route to electrics that run down the street.
EDIT - I forgot, the 94 is going to be converted, but even so that and the 5 electric buses on the 98 do not go far when looking at the other routes which are proposed to be converted.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 19:31:31 GMT
I wonder if its just coincidental that GAL has ended up with so many electric routes - It puts them at a huge advantage at tender renewal and probably means GAL will have routes 100,106,153,214,212,230,357,360,444,507,521 for the next 10 or so years at least. Abellio could challenge them on the 360 I guess. I can't see any routes moving after one tender especially after installing charging points.
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Post by rif153 on Oct 6, 2019 20:33:59 GMT
I wonder if its just coincidental that GAL has ended up with so many electric routes - It puts them at a huge advantage at tender renewal and probably means GAL will have routes 100,106,153,214,212,230,357,360,444,507,521 for the next 10 or so years at least. Abellio could challenge them on the 360 I guess. I can't see any routes moving after one tender especially after installing charging points.
Something I'll be fascinated to see is how much of an advantage existing electric infrastrucutre gives. For example with the the 360, yes next time the route is up for tender it will have a fleet of compliant SEes, and of course Q have electric infrastructure. However, just over the road WL are going to see charging points installed very soon for the C10 and P5. This could give Abellio some advantage when bidding for the 360 in future, or it could prove worthless due to the fact more charging points at WL would need to be installed anyway. The grid upgrades will have already been done it that area to facilitate electrics at Q, thus slightly levelling an uneven playing field.
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Post by rj131 on Oct 6, 2019 20:59:31 GMT
I wonder if its just coincidental that GAL has ended up with so many electric routes - It puts them at a huge advantage at tender renewal and probably means GAL will have routes 100,106,153,214,212,230,357,360,444,507,521 for the next 10 or so years at least. Abellio could challenge them on the 360 I guess. I can't see any routes moving after one tender especially after installing charging points.
Well relating to what you’ve just said I’ve seen this article, with some very interesting findings clondoner92.blogspot.com/2019/10/upcoming-new-london-electric-bus-routes.html?m=1This article contains a response to an FOI request to TfL, and a particular part of it that raised my eyebrows is this: “ We do not select the buses, only the capacity, emissions and generic type. Bus operators will choose from the range of makes and models available that meets the requirement of the route they are bidding for, and buy or lease these, depending on their fleet management strategies.” ” Since 2018, we have only procured new hybrid or zero-emission double deck buses into the fleet. We specify the emissions standards on all bus routes. It is not mandatory for bus companies to purchase double deck EV buses for their new route contracts.” (^This made me realise the tender award for the 212 was GAL was actually only hybrid deckers but they decided to go with electrics instead) So in response to what I said last night in the GAL thread discussing precisely who coughed up for the vehicles, it looks like it’s GAL themselves who are paying for them, not TfL as I first thought. I immediately thought to myself ‘why on earth would GAL would pay all that money for these buses when they could have just bought hybrids’, but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You could call it an investment, they’re spending the money now but it also means they’re all but guaranteed to retain these routes upon the next tender amid very stiff competition. With these four routes they’ve won all being intensely competitive (all routes got five or six bids) it was probably a very strategic move getting these electric buses so they can maximise their chances of retaining the routes next time round. Other operators have the opportunities to purchase these electric buses and do the same thing but some clearly aren’t adopting that strategy at the moment. However this now brings me onto profitability. The 230 for instance, TfL agreed a price for GAL of only £2.8mill per annum. If GAL are buying these electric buses outright and as far as I understand the ballpark figure for one if these is £400k, they’re gonna be spending £5.2 million on these buses (x13)!! Obviously I’m not an expert but my first instinct is how on earth will they make a profit on the route spending that huge an amount of money on just the buses in the first place! Would love to know how they’ll do it
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Post by vjaska on Oct 6, 2019 21:04:10 GMT
Goodness me what a lot of excitement about a few electric buses. Clearly it plays well politically with the Mayor and the timing is not long before the election. Not sure about this "lobby" given the routes covered stretch across North London plus Tory Chingford. Everyone will get electric buses eventually - no one said the roll out was going to be wholly logical. There will always be apparent inconsistencies on a large network like TfL's. It is really good to see posts again by you snoggle , you have been sorely missed and I hope you are recovering well.
I agree that the introduction of electric was never going to be entirely logical, but I am really struggling to see the logic. I would have expected roads / areas with the worst pollution issues to be prioritised, eg Marylebone Road, Oxford Street. It is a bit rich to complain about pollution in Oxford Street being particularly bad as the Mayor has done, and then when you have a chance to do something about it such as electric buses, not to even convert one route to electrics that run down the street.
EDIT - I forgot, the 94 is going to be converted, but even so that and the 5 electric buses on the 98 do not go far when looking at the other routes which are proposed to be converted.
Brixton Road is apparently the most polluted road at present along with Marylebone Road - the monitoring station on Brixton Road exceeded the safe limit for this year a few days into 2019 and a local councillor badgered Khan asking for all routes to go hybrid along Brixton Road yet he seemingly turned down an appealing PR opportunity.
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Post by rif153 on Oct 6, 2019 21:06:16 GMT
I wonder if its just coincidental that GAL has ended up with so many electric routes - It puts them at a huge advantage at tender renewal and probably means GAL will have routes 100,106,153,214,212,230,357,360,444,507,521 for the next 10 or so years at least. Abellio could challenge them on the 360 I guess. I can't see any routes moving after one tender especially after installing charging points.
Well relating to what you’ve just said I’ve seen this article, with some very interesting findings clondoner92.blogspot.com/2019/10/upcoming-new-london-electric-bus-routes.html?m=1This article contains a response to an FOI request to TfL, and a particular part of it that raised my eyebrows is this: “ We do not select the buses, only the capacity, emissions and generic type. Bus operators will choose from the range of makes and models available that meets the requirement of the route they are bidding for, and buy or lease these, depending on their fleet management strategies.” ” Since 2018, we have only procured new hybrid or zero-emission double deck buses into the fleet. We specify the emissions standards on all bus routes. It is not mandatory for bus companies to purchase double deck EV buses for their new route contracts.” (^This made me realise the tender award for the 212 was GAL was actually only hybrid deckers but they decided to go with electrics instead) So in response to what I said last night in the GAL thread discussing precisely who coughed up for the vehicles, it looks like it’s GAL themselves who are paying for them, not TfL as I first thought. I immediately thought to myself ‘why on earth would GAL would pay all that money for these buses when they could have just bought hybrids, but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You could call it an investment, they’re spending the money now but it also means they’re all but guaranteed to retain these routes upon the next tender amid very stiff competition. With these four routes they’ve won all being intensely competitive (all routes got five or six bids) it was probably a very strategic move getting these electric buses so they can maximise their chances of retaining the routes next time round. Other operators have the opportunities to purchase these electric buses and do the same thing but some clearly aren’t adopting that strategy at the moment. However this now brings me onto profitability. The 230 for instance, TfL agreed a price for GAL of only £2.8mill per annum. If GAL are buying these electric buses outright and as far as I understand the ballpark figure for one if these is £400k, they’re gonna be spending £5.2 million on these buses (x13)!! Obviously I’m not an expert but my first instinct is how on earth will they make a profit on the route spending that huge a amount of money on the route in the first place! Would love to know how they’ll do it Maybe they're confident that they've nailed the 230 down for the next 10 years so its a long term investment which won't reap benefits for a few years. The issue is whether GAL have been hubristic and someone else pulls the rug out from under them in 5 or 7 years time, I expect their long term investment is inteded to reap benefits in the first contract term, otherwise they've put a all their eggs in one basket.
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Post by rj131 on Oct 6, 2019 21:14:06 GMT
Well relating to what you’ve just said I’ve seen this article, with some very interesting findings clondoner92.blogspot.com/2019/10/upcoming-new-london-electric-bus-routes.html?m=1This article contains a response to an FOI request to TfL, and a particular part of it that raised my eyebrows is this: “ We do not select the buses, only the capacity, emissions and generic type. Bus operators will choose from the range of makes and models available that meets the requirement of the route they are bidding for, and buy or lease these, depending on their fleet management strategies.” ” Since 2018, we have only procured new hybrid or zero-emission double deck buses into the fleet. We specify the emissions standards on all bus routes. It is not mandatory for bus companies to purchase double deck EV buses for their new route contracts.” (^This made me realise the tender award for the 212 was GAL was actually only hybrid deckers but they decided to go with electrics instead) So in response to what I said last night in the GAL thread discussing precisely who coughed up for the vehicles, it looks like it’s GAL themselves who are paying for them, not TfL as I first thought. I immediately thought to myself ‘why on earth would GAL would pay all that money for these buses when they could have just bought hybrids, but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You could call it an investment, they’re spending the money now but it also means they’re all but guaranteed to retain these routes upon the next tender amid very stiff competition. With these four routes they’ve won all being intensely competitive (all routes got five or six bids) it was probably a very strategic move getting these electric buses so they can maximise their chances of retaining the routes next time round. Other operators have the opportunities to purchase these electric buses and do the same thing but some clearly aren’t adopting that strategy at the moment. However this now brings me onto profitability. The 230 for instance, TfL agreed a price for GAL of only £2.8mill per annum. If GAL are buying these electric buses outright and as far as I understand the ballpark figure for one if these is £400k, they’re gonna be spending £5.2 million on these buses (x13)!! Obviously I’m not an expert but my first instinct is how on earth will they make a profit on the route spending that huge a amount of money on the route in the first place! Would love to know how they’ll do it Maybe they're confident that they've nailed the 230 down for the next 10 years so its a long term investment which won't reap benefits for a few years. The issue is whether GAL have been hubristic and someone else pulls the rug out from under them in 5 or 7 years time, I expect their long term investment is inteded to reap benefits in the first contract term, otherwise they've put a all their eggs in one basket. That’ll probably only work *if* the batteries hold themselves for that long, it could be that batteries are in really poor condition after the five years and the buses need to be replaced again or a significant amount of money thrown at them to keep them going. That’s currently a big unknown factor which we’ll only know when we get to that stage. I like to think the batteries are good enough quality to last a significant amount of time considering the amount of money spent on these buses
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 6, 2019 21:29:14 GMT
Based on some purchased in Manchester the price is more like £500k so really is a big outlay by Go Ahead. They must have confidence they can make this work.
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 6, 2019 21:29:34 GMT
Based on some purchased in Manchester the price is more like £500k so really is a big outlay by Go Ahead. They must have confidence they can make this work.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 21:31:37 GMT
I wonder if its just coincidental that GAL has ended up with so many electric routes - It puts them at a huge advantage at tender renewal and probably means GAL will have routes 100,106,153,214,212,230,357,360,444,507,521 for the next 10 or so years at least. Abellio could challenge them on the 360 I guess. I can't see any routes moving after one tender especially after installing charging points.
Well relating to what you’ve just said I’ve seen this article, with some very interesting findings clondoner92.blogspot.com/2019/10/upcoming-new-london-electric-bus-routes.html?m=1This article contains a response to an FOI request to TfL, and a particular part of it that raised my eyebrows is this: “ We do not select the buses, only the capacity, emissions and generic type. Bus operators will choose from the range of makes and models available that meets the requirement of the route they are bidding for, and buy or lease these, depending on their fleet management strategies.” ” Since 2018, we have only procured new hybrid or zero-emission double deck buses into the fleet. We specify the emissions standards on all bus routes. It is not mandatory for bus companies to purchase double deck EV buses for their new route contracts.” (^This made me realise the tender award for the 212 was GAL was actually only hybrid deckers but they decided to go with electrics instead) So in response to what I said last night in the GAL thread discussing precisely who coughed up for the vehicles, it looks like it’s GAL themselves who are paying for them, not TfL as I first thought. I immediately thought to myself ‘why on earth would GAL would pay all that money for these buses when they could have just bought hybrids, but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You could call it an investment, they’re spending the money now but it also means they’re all but guaranteed to retain these routes upon the next tender amid very stiff competition. With these four routes they’ve won all being intensely competitive (all routes got five or six bids) it was probably a very strategic move getting these electric buses so they can maximise their chances of retaining the routes next time round. Other operators have the opportunities to purchase these electric buses and do the same thing but some clearly aren’t adopting that strategy at the moment. However this now brings me onto profitability. The 230 for instance, TfL agreed a price for GAL of only £2.8mill per annum. If GAL are buying these electric buses outright and as far as I understand the ballpark figure for one if these is £400k, they’re gonna be spending £5.2 million on these buses (x13)!! Obviously I’m not an expert but my first instinct is how on earth will they make a profit on the route spending that huge a amount of money on the route in the first place! Would love to know how they’ll do it GAL probably just put in two bids. One with hybrids, and then one with electrics at a higher price.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 7, 2019 9:04:56 GMT
I think the thing here is GAL having the most experience with electric buses plus a strategic view around investment. They clearly feel they could win up to 14 years worth of work off the back of this. The technology will improve over time offering potential efficiencies.
The other thing is that if you're doing infrastructure then pick a good location. NP has loads of electrical stuff nearby and will gain more as new housing goes in. TfL would also appear to endorse garage based electrical investment so the paymaster is being kept happy. Finally the Mayor will want to see his vision spread far and wide. Given the differences with WCC I think Oxford Street is less of a priority right now. Don't reward your political opponents prior to the election.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 7, 2019 9:56:17 GMT
I think the thing here is GAL having the most experience with electric buses plus a strategic view around investment. They clearly feel they could win up to 14 years worth of work off the back of this. The technology will improve over time offering potential efficiencies. The other thing is that if you're doing infrastructure then pick a good location. NP has loads of electrical stuff nearby and will gain more as new housing goes in. TfL would also appear to endorse garage based electrical investment so the paymaster is being kept happy. Finally the Mayor will want to see his vision spread far and wide. Given the differences with WCC I think Oxford Street is less of a priority right now. Don't reward your political opponents prior to the election. I get he wants to spread his vision and understand the issue with Oxford Street but he has no differences with Lambeth or Wandsworth councils who both have two particular roads that are regularly in the top 10 for most polluted roads in London - me, I couldn't care less about getting electrics or not but for a PR happy mayor, odd he never went for it.
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