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Post by ThinLizzy on Oct 18, 2021 13:53:24 GMT
So operators like Lothian who actually try and promote bus travel are wasting their time? I think it's you that's missing the point. youtu.be/wW7j1WIt7UUYes they are wasting their time if it is on the basis you believe that would encourage people to go onto the bus. If it was something that was gaining masses of new customers to use the bus, then I am sure virtually every operator up and down the land would be doing it. The experience Transdev have had on their 36, Witchway etc, TrentBarton have had on their networks would suggest improving and promoting bus travel does actually work....
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 18, 2021 13:54:54 GMT
No amount of promotion of green buses will change the average joes opinion of buses and bring riders back when buses are viewed as slow, unreliable and over regulated when compared to other transport modes. TfL needs to sort the fundamental problems that exist with buses rather than promote a gimmick. As a public body, do you not think public bodies have a duty to promote their green credentials, or continue to appear this carbon producing dinosaur? I’m sure they do, but in this case TfL has a lot more to fix before it starts promoting its buses as green. Scratch the surface and the average passenger would see its a complete farce and disguises the primary issues with London’s bus network. An advert does not reverse years of coasting and massive ignorance by TfL when it comes to the bus network. No point boasting about being green if your user is faced with a dwindling service.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 18, 2021 13:57:29 GMT
As a public body, do you not think public bodies have a duty to promote their green credentials, or continue to appear this carbon producing dinosaur? I’m sure they do, but in this case TfL has a lot more to fix before it starts promoting its buses as green. Scratch the surface and the average passenger would see its a complete farce and disguises the primary issues with London’s bus network. An advert does not reverse years of coasting and massive ignorance by TfL when it comes to the bus network. No point boasting about being green if your user is faced with a dwindling service. Don't disagree with your last statement, but do you not agree TfL have a duty to promote their green credentials ... which you seem to have accepted in you opening phrase ... so they are just going about what is their statutory duty. Compared to wifi which some seem to want with its ongoing costs, the cost of this does not even warrant being called minimal, and doubt it cost more than USB, which I seriously doubt would attract passengers in London.
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 18, 2021 14:04:32 GMT
Not free advertising though is it, graphic designers, layout artists, graphic appliers etc all cost money. Besides it would be an electric bus advertising itself, that makes zero sense, if you’re taking the bus you’re already on it so why does it need to be advertised to you? Why do advertisers pay for all-over ads if it is such a bad medium to get your message across? If you put the requirement in a contract you only have one off cost to worry about, then your costs are negligible. The trouble is how do you measure how successful the campaign is to say that it make zero sense. If advertising them makes zero sense, why go to the extra expense of having them ... might as well stick to the diesels, if to do not want to promote your additional investment. If you are going to invest in expensive electric vehicles and not tell anyone about them, why bother? Your argument comes across as to why we are evening bothering with electric vehicles. Let’s be clear they are advertising shoes, bags, purses, holidays etc and they are specifically targeting pedestrians in central London. When was the last time you saw an all over ad or even a full rear ad for something other than a education or a retirement complex in the suburbs? Most electric buses are being placed in the outer boroughs at the moment where there is less access to the tube or rail networks so your customer base is already there. Advertising that a bus is green in the suburbs just won’t take people out of their cars on a weekend because everyone just wants the convenience these days and on a weekday they just want to get to school or work or to their connection so aren’t considering whether that bus is hybrid or electric or diesel. So where is the merit in advertising to that person who has no choice to take the bus to their destination in the suburbs for multiple reasons? They just don’t care about it being green but they will care if it’s late, if it’s dirty, if the driver is rude, if they are stuck in traffic because a council changes their roads to 20mph and TfL didn’t consider how it would affect their bus passenger and if there is no longer a bus lane because a cycle lane which is barely used takes priority over a bus which is arguably the greenest mass surface road transport regardless of diesel, electric or hybrid.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 18, 2021 14:12:54 GMT
Why do advertisers pay for all-over ads if it is such a bad medium to get your message across? If you put the requirement in a contract you only have one off cost to worry about, then your costs are negligible. The trouble is how do you measure how successful the campaign is to say that it make zero sense. If advertising them makes zero sense, why go to the extra expense of having them ... might as well stick to the diesels, if to do not want to promote your additional investment. If you are going to invest in expensive electric vehicles and not tell anyone about them, why bother? Your argument comes across as to why we are evening bothering with electric vehicles. Let’s be clear they are advertising shoes, bags, purses, holidays etc and they are specifically targeting pedestrians in central London. When was the last time you saw an all over ad or even a full rear ad for something other than a education or a retirement complex in the suburbs? Most electric buses are being placed in the outer boroughs at the moment where there is less access to the tube or rail networks so your customer base is already there. Advertising that a bus is green in the suburbs just won’t take people out of their cars on a weekend because everyone just wants the convenience these days and on a weekday they just want to get to school or work or to their connection so aren’t considering whether that bus is hybrid or electric or diesel. So where is the merit in advertising to that person who has no choice to take the bus to their destination in the suburbs for multiple reasons? They just don’t care about it being green but they will care if it’s late, if it’s dirty, if the driver is rude, if they are stuck in traffic because a council changes their roads to 20mph and TfL didn’t consider how it would affect their bus passenger and if there is no longer a bus lane because a cycle lane which is barely used takes priority over a bus which is arguably the greenest mass surface road transport regardless of diesel, electric or hybrid. Buses were not green, co2 emission per passenger km were worse than a car if it had 2 or more people in, even though many choose to not believe it as it does not suit their agenda. It was 70% of a long haul flight. People demonised the air industry over air pollution, buses were not much better. ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint
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Post by WH241 on Oct 18, 2021 14:23:17 GMT
It's funny so much is being made about advertising the fact buses are electric but should be remembered the Red Arrow routes gained them 5 years ago! Surely the big fan fare should have been when electric buses first entered service not when we have what 200 or even more in service.
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 18, 2021 14:23:21 GMT
Let’s be clear they are advertising shoes, bags, purses, holidays etc and they are specifically targeting pedestrians in central London. When was the last time you saw an all over ad or even a full rear ad for something other than a education or a retirement complex in the suburbs? Most electric buses are being placed in the outer boroughs at the moment where there is less access to the tube or rail networks so your customer base is already there. Advertising that a bus is green in the suburbs just won’t take people out of their cars on a weekend because everyone just wants the convenience these days and on a weekday they just want to get to school or work or to their connection so aren’t considering whether that bus is hybrid or electric or diesel. So where is the merit in advertising to that person who has no choice to take the bus to their destination in the suburbs for multiple reasons? They just don’t care about it being green but they will care if it’s late, if it’s dirty, if the driver is rude, if they are stuck in traffic because a council changes their roads to 20mph and TfL didn’t consider how it would affect their bus passenger and if there is no longer a bus lane because a cycle lane which is barely used takes priority over a bus which is arguably the greenest mass surface road transport regardless of diesel, electric or hybrid. Buses were not green, co2 emission per passenger km were worse than a car if it had 2 or more people in, even though many choose to not believe it as it does not suit their agenda. It was 70% of a long haul flight. People demonised the air industry over air pollution, buses were not much better. ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprintBut that is based on a full bus versus a single medium sized petrol car with 2 or 4 people in. Considering there are buses that can have a capacity of 100 passengers I would still call that more green than each 25 or 50 cars on the road.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 18, 2021 14:25:50 GMT
Buses were not green, co2 emission per passenger km were worse than a car if it had 2 or more people in, even though many choose to not believe it as it does not suit their agenda. It was 70% of a long haul flight. People demonised the air industry over air pollution, buses were not much better. ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprintBut that is based on a full bus versus a single medium sized petrol car with 2 or 4 people in. Considering there are buses that can have a capacity of 100 passengers I would still call that more green than each 25 or 50 cars on the road. No the stats are per passenger per km , so already taken into consideration
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Post by vjaska on Oct 18, 2021 14:28:32 GMT
Let’s be clear they are advertising shoes, bags, purses, holidays etc and they are specifically targeting pedestrians in central London. When was the last time you saw an all over ad or even a full rear ad for something other than a education or a retirement complex in the suburbs? Most electric buses are being placed in the outer boroughs at the moment where there is less access to the tube or rail networks so your customer base is already there. Advertising that a bus is green in the suburbs just won’t take people out of their cars on a weekend because everyone just wants the convenience these days and on a weekday they just want to get to school or work or to their connection so aren’t considering whether that bus is hybrid or electric or diesel. So where is the merit in advertising to that person who has no choice to take the bus to their destination in the suburbs for multiple reasons? They just don’t care about it being green but they will care if it’s late, if it’s dirty, if the driver is rude, if they are stuck in traffic because a council changes their roads to 20mph and TfL didn’t consider how it would affect their bus passenger and if there is no longer a bus lane because a cycle lane which is barely used takes priority over a bus which is arguably the greenest mass surface road transport regardless of diesel, electric or hybrid. Buses were not green, co2 emission per passenger km were worse than a car if it had 2 or more people in, even though many choose to not believe it as it does not suit their agenda. It was 70% of a long haul flight. People demonised the air industry over air pollution, buses were not much better. ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprintYour forgetting that bus carries a lot more than two passengers yet is only slightly above a petrol car of 2 or more people. The survey mentions nothing about what sort of buses were used in the findings but given diesels probably still outnumber everything else, the result isn’t as bad as you suggest and one bus can take a number of cars off the road meaning it is greener overall.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 18, 2021 14:43:48 GMT
Buses were not green, co2 emission per passenger km were worse than a car if it had 2 or more people in, even though many choose to not believe it as it does not suit their agenda. It was 70% of a long haul flight. People demonised the air industry over air pollution, buses were not much better. ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprintYour forgetting that bus carries a lot more than two passengers yet is only slightly above a petrol car of 2 or more people. The survey mentions nothing about what sort of buses were used in the findings but given diesels probably still outnumber everything else, the result isn’t as bad as you suggest and one bus can take a number of cars off the road meaning it is greener overall. But the stats are not per vehicle, but per passenger. I would assume they are using industry averages as stats for cars can vary as well as buses
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 19, 2021 0:23:02 GMT
London is different to the rest of the country so don't see why you keep trying to compare what other places do. Its funny places considering franchise models are looking at what we do in London! Our services are more frequent compared to other places. We only have one livery with no local branding, no special fares or promotions the list goes on. No amount of branding is going to create a massive uptake in passenger numbers! As I said the other day a bus not constantly regulated is what passengers want. It is a franchise model, but it is those with the revenue risk that are doing the promoting. They say there is no such thing as bad advertising, so publicising your green credentials in this day and age can only be a good thing. Just look at the number of eco protestors, green credentials is something the public want to hear about. TfL are the party taking the revenue risk, so why should they not promote their service making it more attractive. I do agree though TfL need to do more than just put a few logos on bus to make it even more attractive, but don't understand all this reluctance to announce positive news. I never accept the London is different to the rest of UK, Europe, World argument. There are always examples out there we can learn from unless you are the world leader, and think we all agree TfL buses are far from world leaders. If other cities want a model that is losing money hand over fist, and driving passengers away, then yes, London is a good role model .... but is not one I would look to replicate. For me it would do the opposite. I am sick to death with all this eco conscious nonsense and even more blood boiling is talking about carbon footprint - ultimate turn off!
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Oct 21, 2021 9:31:27 GMT
It is a franchise model, but it is those with the revenue risk that are doing the promoting. They say there is no such thing as bad advertising, so publicising your green credentials in this day and age can only be a good thing. Just look at the number of eco protestors, green credentials is something the public want to hear about. TfL are the party taking the revenue risk, so why should they not promote their service making it more attractive. I do agree though TfL need to do more than just put a few logos on bus to make it even more attractive, but don't understand all this reluctance to announce positive news. I never accept the London is different to the rest of UK, Europe, World argument. There are always examples out there we can learn from unless you are the world leader, and think we all agree TfL buses are far from world leaders. If other cities want a model that is losing money hand over fist, and driving passengers away, then yes, London is a good role model .... but is not one I would look to replicate. For me it would do the opposite. I am sick to death with all this eco conscious nonsense and even more blood boiling is talking about carbon footprint - ultimate turn off! I have been on both a BCE (31) and an OE (18) and the best thing was the smoothness of the ride. The only thing that could make me more likely to take the bus. But for me, I have no choice; can't drive, regularly use a bus route that is electrifying so I have to get electric buses. On a separate note. I don't really feel that it is that much better for the environment, as, at night, when the vehicles are being recharged, up to 70% (19 GW) of energy is produced from nuclear, coal and natural gas sources, all non-renewable. (All measurements taken on the morning of the 18th September). This can decrease when it is very windy. (Early this morning 50% of energy came from non-renewable sources)
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 21, 2021 9:43:54 GMT
For me it would do the opposite. I am sick to death with all this eco conscious nonsense and even more blood boiling is talking about carbon footprint - ultimate turn off! I have been on both a BCE (31) and an OE (18) and the best thing was the smoothness of the ride. The only thing that could make me more likely to take the bus. But for me, I have no choice; can't drive, regularly use a bus route that is electrifying so I have to get electric buses. On a separate note. I don't really feel that it is that much better for the environment, as, at night, when the vehicles are being recharged, up to 70% (19 GW) of energy is produced from nuclear, coal and natural gas sources, all non-renewable. (All measurements taken on the morning of the 18th September). This can decrease when it is very windy. (Early this morning 50% of energy came from non-renewable sources) Whilst not renewable nuclear power is amongst the greenest in terms of pollution and sustainability. The reality is that renewable energy sources are just not designed for producing mass electricity and couldn’t support our growing needs globally. We need organisations like the UN or private firms to invest in proving nuclear fusion if we want to truly detach from non-renewables.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 21, 2021 9:44:30 GMT
For me it would do the opposite. I am sick to death with all this eco conscious nonsense and even more blood boiling is talking about carbon footprint - ultimate turn off! I have been on both a BCE (31) and an OE (18) and the best thing was the smoothness of the ride. The only thing that could make me more likely to take the bus. But for me, I have no choice; can't drive, regularly use a bus route that is electrifying so I have to get electric buses. On a separate note. I don't really feel that it is that much better for the environment, as, at night, when the vehicles are being recharged, up to 70% (19 GW) of energy is produced from nuclear, coal and natural gas sources, all non-renewable. (All measurements taken on the morning of the 18th September). This can decrease when it is very windy. (Early this morning 50% of energy came from non-renewable sources) It makes you laugh as 70% of those using electricity will claim they only use electricity from green sources ... How anyone can claim that I do not know when all sources feed into the national grid
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Post by wirewiper on Oct 21, 2021 10:22:48 GMT
For me it would do the opposite. I am sick to death with all this eco conscious nonsense and even more blood boiling is talking about carbon footprint - ultimate turn off! I have been on both a BCE (31) and an OE (18) and the best thing was the smoothness of the ride. The only thing that could make me more likely to take the bus. But for me, I have no choice; can't drive, regularly use a bus route that is electrifying so I have to get electric buses. On a separate note. I don't really feel that it is that much better for the environment, as, at night, when the vehicles are being recharged, up to 70% (19 GW) of energy is produced from nuclear, coal and natural gas sources, all non-renewable. (All measurements taken on the morning of the 18th September). This can decrease when it is very windy. (Early this morning 50% of energy came from non-renewable sources) You are overlooking the zero-emissions aspect at the tailpipe; electric buses can contribute to the cleaning up of London's air in a significant way. One way of ensuring that a greater proportion of renewables goes into the production of electricity, is to use less electricity in the first place. That is why a strategy to reduce car use and dependency is a serious omission from the Government's Green agenda. Just replacing petrol/diesel cars with electric ones on a one-to-one basis, without any strategies to reduce car use by encouraging modal shift and more localism, is not going to be enough.
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