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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 9:25:47 GMT
I know TFL only got 3 express routes which are x26, x68 and 607. Should TFL be able to make more express routes or most of it is now obsolete because of the rail system?
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Post by M1104 on May 14, 2013 9:39:27 GMT
I believe there is also the 607.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 9:47:20 GMT
I know TFL only got 3 express routes which are x26, x68 and 608. Should TFL be able to make more express routes or most of it is now obsolete because of the rail system? I wouldn't really call the 608 an express route. It has a short non-stop section at the end but then on that basis the 96 and 428 are express routes. There is also the 607 as PVL371 has mentioned. The rail system is often overcrowded, and more expensive than buses - I'd say railways and buses serve different purposes. I think we should have more express routes - there are some corridors, like the 68 corridor and 207 corridor that could benefit from an express route. Routes like an X25 and X53 would be useful. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 16:51:21 GMT
as mredd says, there needs to be express routes where major corridors are.
Also, any express route needs to be told apart from normal services, as the 607 does with white on blue blinds whilst the X26 and X68 use yellow on black...
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Post by ServerKing on May 14, 2013 17:28:16 GMT
as mredd says, there needs to be express routes where major corridors are. Also, any express route needs to be told apart from normal services, as the 607 does with white on blue blinds whilst the X26 and X68 use yellow on black... The simple word 'EXPRESS' as shown on the 607 will suffice - then again the X prefix should be enough - like the X68 with a 'first set down' desto on the blind  the blue/white blinds would be good as well. I'm beginning to go off the black and white blinds now I've seen them in the flesh (it's only been 6 days :  , prefer the dayglo sets... Noticed the 318's do not have ultimate desto's, but via point on the side blind |
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Post by LX09FBJ on May 14, 2013 17:35:42 GMT
as mredd says, there needs to be express routes where major corridors are. Also, any express route needs to be told apart from normal services, as the 607 does with white on blue blinds whilst the X26 and X68 use yellow on black... The simple word 'EXPRESS' as shown on the 607 will suffice - then again the X prefix should be enough - like the X68 with a 'first set down' desto on the blind the blue/white blinds would be good as well. I'm beginning to go off the black and white blinds now I've seen them in the flesh (it's only been 6 days : , prefer the dayglo sets... Noticed the 318's do not have ultimate desto's, but via point on the side blind So I take it they still have manuals then. Either that or Arriva has seen common sense and placed a 'via' blind in the side. There should be more 'commuter' expresses on core routes to and from Central London like there used to be (like X15, X43 etc.) and the X68 is now. Use ex-tender buses and refurbish them with high backed seats. |
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Post by DT 11 on May 14, 2013 17:45:03 GMT
The simple word 'EXPRESS' as shown on the 607 will suffice - then again the X prefix should be enough - like the X68 with a 'first set down' desto on the blind the blue/white blinds would be good as well. I'm beginning to go off the black and white blinds now I've seen them in the flesh (it's only been 6 days : , prefer the dayglo sets... Noticed the 318's do not have ultimate desto's, but via point on the side blind So I take it they still have manuals then. Either that or Arriva has seen common sense and placed a 'via' blind in the side. There should be more 'commuter' expresses on core routes to and from Central London like there used to be (like X15, X43 etc.) and the X68 is now. Use ex-tender buses and refurbish them with high backed seats. Strangely CT Minus put the destination on their side Manual blinds. |
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Post by snoggle on May 14, 2013 17:48:24 GMT
In principle I agree with express routes. Many areas outside of London have them as an additional element in the bus network. However there are some differences between those places and London - there are distinct areas or towns with "gaps" between them and often there are faster roads and bypasses to speed bus services up. There are also gaps in the rail network which allow buses to take up the role that a train or tube might do in London.
London's biggest problem is that there are not many fast roads so getting express routes to be "express" and not bogged down beside stopping buses is not easy. Further more it is actually more efficient to carry people by rail on high density flows. There are some places where express routes could be helpful but I think they are pretty limited. For example I can see some merit in an express route or routes over the North Circular Road which is (usually) a quick road. There are obvious nodes on the North Circ where an express could stop to give connections to rail or stopping bus services. Similarly there is possibly some merit in express routes into Canary Wharf for commuters given rail modes are heavily overloaded. There are some fastish roads that get close to Canary Wharf so faster journeys are possible although there is congestion in the peaks.
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Post by LX09FBJ on May 14, 2013 17:49:12 GMT
So I take it they still have manuals then. Either that or Arriva has seen common sense and placed a 'via' blind in the side. There should be more 'commuter' expresses on core routes to and from Central London like there used to be (like X15, X43 etc.) and the X68 is now. Use ex-tender buses and refurbish them with high backed seats. Strangely CT Minus put the destination on their side Manual blinds. Sovereign's ex United Duck Buses have the same thing going on (which is okay for H9 and H10 but not the other routes.) Quality Line also have manual side detestations on some of the 07 plate E400s. |
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Post by DT 11 on May 14, 2013 17:53:05 GMT
Strangely CT Minus put the destination on their side Manual blinds. Sovereign's ex United Duck Buses have the same thing going on (which is okay for H9 and H10 but not the other routes.) Quality Line also have manual side detestations on some of the 07 plate E400s. Quality Lines E400 blinds are hardly "Quality" at all. They need to get them fixed IMO. |
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Post by vjaska on May 14, 2013 23:51:37 GMT
In 1998, we had just four X prefix routes left - the X30 from West Croydon to New Addington, the X53 from Oxford Circus to Plumstead, the X68 from Russell Square to West Croydon & the X72 from Thamesmead to Woolwich. The X68 is the only survivor and still retains the same route - the only difference being that the express section runs via Brixton rather than Camberwell which is what it used to do.
The X30 was withdrawn when Tramlink was built so in this case, the Tram replaced the express route.
The X53, I think, was withdrawn when the 53 was cut back to Whitehall
The X68 still remains and the heavy loadings show why
The X72 was replaced by the 472 and extended to North Greenwich as far as I can remember
So in this instance, only one of the routes was replaced by the train (or tram in this instance).
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Post by vjaska on May 14, 2013 23:56:57 GMT
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Post by snoggle on May 15, 2013 8:07:44 GMT
Just to add to vjaska's list we have had in the past
the 177 Express from Thamesmead to Victoria
the X15 Beckton to Trafalgar Square
174 Express journeys in Romford
Then there are the former Airbus routes but of course these were premium fare routes rather than express versions of normal stopping services.
A1 Victoria to Heathrow
A2 Euston to Heathrow
Today's A10 service has a non stop section from Stockley Park to Heathrow.
I'm sure there are others that I've missed or an unaware of from the history books.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 8:25:19 GMT
In principle I agree with express routes. Many areas outside of London have them as an additional element in the bus network. However there are some differences between those places and London - there are distinct areas or towns with "gaps" between them and often there are faster roads and bypasses to speed bus services up. There are also gaps in the rail network which allow buses to take up the role that a train or tube might do in London. London's biggest problem is that there are not many fast roads so getting express routes to be "express" and not bogged down beside stopping buses is not easy. Further more it is actually more efficient to carry people by rail on high density flows. There are some places where express routes could be helpful but I think they are pretty limited. For example I can see some merit in an express route or routes over the North Circular Road which is (usually) a quick road. There are obvious nodes on the North Circ where an express could stop to give connections to rail or stopping bus services. Similarly there is possibly some merit in express routes into Canary Wharf for commuters given rail modes are heavily overloaded. There are some fastish roads that get close to Canary Wharf so faster journeys are possible although there is congestion in the peaks. The best objective of express services usually seems to be linking the centre of London to outward destinations that might otherwise be unreachable (practically) by a single route, or supporting these trunk routes where they do exist. The 607 and X68 are the main examples of that, linking together places that would never otherwise be achieved by one day route. There are now quite a few densely-populous areas along the outer edges of London, some of which don't enjoy particularly good rail provision. Nonetheless on some corridors I think there is something to be said for time-savings from the limited stop nature of these services. The 25, for example, stops pretty much at every stop whatever the time of day, each for at least 30-60 seconds. If you consider there's about 50 stops along the route, that means potentially 30-50 minute savings end to end if the stopping was reduced. It would also be a smarter way to increase capacity as through journeys could be split from short distance loadings. There probably also is something to be said of finding homes for express services along fast roads. The fast nature of the 113 does seem to be what's allowed it to survive in its current form - running all the way from Oxford Street to Edgware. It mainly runs along dual-carriageways and doesn't seem to stop that much along the way. It almost acts a quasi-express service (though it nonetheless takes a while end-to-end!). The X26 similarly runs along fast-ish outer London roads for most of its journey. In an ideal world, I'd quite like to see an X25 or X53. |
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Post by snoggle on May 15, 2013 17:10:54 GMT
In principle I agree with express routes. Many areas outside of London have them as an additional element in the bus network. However there are some differences between those places and London - there are distinct areas or towns with "gaps" between them and often there are faster roads and bypasses to speed bus services up. There are also gaps in the rail network which allow buses to take up the role that a train or tube might do in London. London's biggest problem is that there are not many fast roads so getting express routes to be "express" and not bogged down beside stopping buses is not easy. Further more it is actually more efficient to carry people by rail on high density flows. There are some places where express routes could be helpful but I think they are pretty limited. For example I can see some merit in an express route or routes over the North Circular Road which is (usually) a quick road. There are obvious nodes on the North Circ where an express could stop to give connections to rail or stopping bus services. Similarly there is possibly some merit in express routes into Canary Wharf for commuters given rail modes are heavily overloaded. There are some fastish roads that get close to Canary Wharf so faster journeys are possible although there is congestion in the peaks. The best objective of express services usually seems to be linking the centre of London to outward destinations that might otherwise be unreachable (practically) by a single route, or supporting these trunk routes where they do exist. The 607 and X68 are the main examples of that, linking together places that would never otherwise be achieved by one day route. There are now quite a few densely-populous areas along the outer edges of London, some of which don't enjoy particularly good rail provision. Nonetheless on some corridors I think there is something to be said for time-savings from the limited stop nature of these services. The 25, for example, stops pretty much at every stop whatever the time of day, each for at least 30-60 seconds. If you consider there's about 50 stops along the route, that means potentially 30-50 minute savings end to end if the stopping was reduced. It would also be a smarter way to increase capacity as through journeys could be split from short distance loadings. There probably also is something to be said of finding homes for express services along fast roads. The fast nature of the 113 does seem to be what's allowed it to survive in its current form - running all the way from Oxford Street to Edgware. It mainly runs along dual-carriageways and doesn't seem to stop that much along the way. It almost acts a quasi-express service (though it nonetheless takes a while end-to-end!). The X26 similarly runs along fast-ish outer London roads for most of its journey. In an ideal world, I'd quite like to see an X25 or X53. The big problem, though, is that Central London means slow journeys and a highish risk of congestion and delays. As I type TfL are reporting delays of 20 minutes in the TCR Stn area. I am not convinced a X25 could really operate reliably and consistently from Oxford Circus. You therefore have to decide whether the City or the West End is your traffic objective. You also need to think about what you do to the stopping 25 service - does it get reduced in frequency? I can see merit in having a X25 but getting the service spec correct would not be easy. I'd be minded to run just as far as Aldgate to avoid congestion but I can see that would not be hugely popular. Your choice of the 607 is interesting. Yes it can get past a number of stops on its outer section because of the dual carriageway. However it can get horribly bogged down in Ealing and Acton. The other thing I've noticed is that it can have very long stop dwell times because so many people are getting on and off. Therefore there might not be such a big time saving on a X25 unless you miss out a lot of stops. Here's a small challenge - would the X25 use the Bow Flyover or would it serve Bow Church because of all the connections with local routes but be delayed in the nasty jams? Not an easy one to solve. One other question is how you manage express routes - do you curtail them or accept late running but go to the route terminus? Frequencies are likely to be lower so dumping people at the roadside short of their destination is unlikely to be popular. Therefore routes need to be designed to balance the need for reliability and to serve the right places to create enough demand. I can see merit in trying to use the main, faster routes to give faster journeys. Traditionally there are few services using these corridors - partly understandable because access to stops is poor and the waiting environment is often horrible. I can certainly see merit in more routes using the A12, A13, A4, A40 and A406. I know South London less well but I suppose bits of the A2, A20 and A3 could be used to speed up some services or create faster links. |
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the blue/white blinds would be good as well.
, prefer the dayglo sets... Noticed the 318's do not have ultimate desto's, but via point on the side blind
