linus
Driver
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
Posts: 263
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Post by linus on Jul 27, 2014 12:57:06 GMT
I suppose what I'm getting at is that TfL/Wrightbus/Mayor should stop burying their corporate heads in the sand, admit there is a serious problem with their new brand-defining flagship icons, get off their butts and develop a solution.
A while back we had a similar furore about temperatures in deep-level tubes. Now we have a rolling programme of station cooling resulting in tolerable conditions on most deep-level lines (Central excepted), fully aircon SSL well advanced, and solid plans for aircon in next-gen tube trains. The problem has been acknowledged, addressed and resolved.
Whereas with NBfL, ultra-high-tech state-of-the-art icon, no one will admit there's a problem - thousands of customer complaints are obviously all an anti-Boris conspiracy - and hence we are all fuming. These idiots just need to admit and solve!
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Post by vjaska on Jul 27, 2014 13:43:34 GMT
I am therefore led to believe that the system is irretrievably broken and these buses should not be allowed on the road in temperatures exceeding about 22 degrees. Well, in that case, we should say the same about the 13001-13032 batch of Stagecoach Volvo/Gemini 3 hybrids, all but two of which I found unacceptably hot. Let's also close all the deep level tube lines while we're at it, because they too get uncomfortably hot. Not allowing them on the road is a serious overreaction to the issue. The Northern Line & Victoria Line trains on Friday wern't hot - I used two trains on each line and all were quite cool - far cooler than the LT on the 10 I had. Even more surprising, RM1627 was nice & cool despite having the hopper windows and sitting right behind the engine.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 27, 2014 13:45:42 GMT
Whereas with NBfL, ultra-high-tech state-of-the-art icon, no one will admit there's a problem - thousands of customer complaints are obviously all an anti-Boris conspiracy - and hence we are all fuming. These idiots just need to admit and solve! I wish I could give this 10 million likes.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 27, 2014 14:31:47 GMT
I suppose what I'm getting at is that TfL/Wrightbus/Mayor should stop burying their corporate heads in the sand, admit there is a serious problem with their new brand-defining flagship icons, get off their butts and develop a solution. A while back we had a similar furore about temperatures in deep-level tubes. Now we have a rolling programme of station cooling resulting in tolerable conditions on most deep-level lines (Central excepted), fully aircon SSL well advanced, and solid plans for aircon in next-gen tube trains. The problem has been acknowledged, addressed and resolved. Whereas with NBfL, ultra-high-tech state-of-the-art icon, no one will admit there's a problem - thousands of customer complaints are obviously all an anti-Boris conspiracy - and hence we are all fuming. These idiots just need to admit and solve! There's two or three bits to this. Let's do the tubes first. With the Vic Line upgrade there has been a noticeable improvement in keeping the line cooler despite the new trains spewing out more heat. The trains aren't air con fitted but off peak are tolerable. I've not used it in the peak for a long while so happy to be corrected. This was only achieved because of the upgrade which brought in new fans, old shafts brought back into use and regenerative braking. All good stuff. Clearly on sub surface the new S Stock provides a more comfortable environment provided water isn't pouring out of the air con system. I would not go as far as you in saying air con on tube stock is "addressed and resolved". I fear the dreaded "new tube for London" label will lead to all sorts of claptrap that we see with the new bus for London. Imagine the dingy interior, low roof and "variable" (ahem!) performance ventilation and cooling system of the bus being transferred to the Tube? God help us. I think getting air con to work on tube stock is a really difficult issue to solve because of the lack of vent shafts and fans on the old lines. You have to get the heat out and while you can design new trains to emit less heat and be much more energy efficient the real issue is that you need those trains to accelerate fast and brake quickly which I believe generates heat. Add on top of that the ever increasing numbers of people, who also emit heat, and you've got a very difficult problem to solve. I just hope that the tube engineers will be allowed the time and money to design a proper solution for what will be a "once in a lifetime" opportunity. Therefore the "address and resolve" bit is in the future. Get it wrong and we're lumbered for decades. On the subject of the NB4L Leon Daniels has said in another place that every formal report of NB4Ls being too hot is investigated and the engineers readjust the system. I doubt he'd say that if it wasn't true. What's less clear is whether there is any acknowledgement that there may (note may) be a design flaw or failure. Even if a flaw was acknowledged what can be done about it as TfL own the design? Do they sue themselves? The risk sits with TfL as far as I am aware. The problem seems to be a real lack of consistency and no apparent undertanding as to whether the problem occurs on any NB4L regardless of when it was built or whether earlier or later batches are more prone to problems. It's clear from comments that some NB4Ls can provide an acceptance level of cooling but others clearly cannot. We really need to know what's wrong, what's being done and confirmation that buses are permanently fixed. Clearly any bus can not be maintained properly and have a non working air cooler unit but the NB4L seems to have a problem way beyond the odd maintenance omission.
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linus
Driver
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
Posts: 263
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Post by linus on Jul 27, 2014 15:46:42 GMT
Snoggle - you've pretty well summed it up, and with NBfL what it amounts to is acknowledgement of the problem and a comprehensive project to solve it, including detailed analysis of the various nuances. For all we know such a project may well exist and they're not publicly admitting it, though if so it's bad judgment with such a high-profile issue. Perhaps they're caught between a rock and a hard place with any effective aircon breaching weight and/or power or environmental restrictions. Or too expensive!
On the New Tube, as I wrote that bit I did muse on the possibility of another NBfL-like fiasco; we'll just have to wait and see. Where there are substantial open-air sections to dissipate heat an aircon solution may be easier, but the Victoria, W&C and southern sections of the Northern will need substantial deep-level chilled ventilation and efficient on-train forced-air circulation.
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