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Post by jay38a on Aug 16, 2013 16:30:48 GMT
TfL are proposing buses to go cashless, the consultation is here: consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/cashlessBefore they do they must make sure there's more places to top up your oysters early in the morning or late at night as many corner shops that do it would be closed then or stations too far away as the option given by letting people have 1 ride to the nearest oyster stop is not really the answer, even if you go into a negative balance for a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2013 16:51:06 GMT
I think my idea is to keep the cash fare, but implement the transfer on the cash fare.
But it will get the stress out of drivers dealing with change. But they have to deal with vulnerable people that dont have a valid oyster card.
Like i said many months ago. TFL should make a negative balance on the oyster card. If you only have like 40p left on the oyster, it will go straight to -£1 and then you need to top up after.
Well if it happens, TFL needs to spend millions on propaganda telling cash users to start getting the oyster card or contactless payment card because the red buses no longer take cash. Its not London which TFL needs to tell, its the whole of Britain which TFL needs to tell.
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Post by slr on Aug 17, 2013 1:59:28 GMT
Sounds like a smashing idea, pain in the arse accepting cash I think for the relatively low numbers that use it.
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Post by marlon101 on Aug 17, 2013 9:00:59 GMT
Sounds like a smashing idea, pain in the arse accepting cash I think for the relatively low numbers that use it. Who are these people though? The working middle class I'd suggest, exactly the sort of people you want to woo onto the bus. Scrapping the cash fare just adds another barrier/excuse for people to stay in their cars
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Post by vjaska on Aug 17, 2013 9:41:28 GMT
Sounds like a smashing idea, pain in the arse accepting cash I think for the relatively low numbers that use it. Who are these people though? The working middle class I'd suggest, exactly the sort of people you want to woo onto the bus. Scrapping the cash fare just adds another barrier/excuse for people to stay in their cars Not only that but its extremely difficult to find a open newsagent that does Oyster top up at night - in my area, the only 24 hour newsagent doesn't do Oyster top up anymore so I'd have to start walking to where I'd need to go. I'm also against this negative balance as it could lead to people avoiding to pay off the negative to return to positive. I'd prefer an exact change system brought in instead like what Dublin Buses have - that way, we have best of both worlds - drivers life is easier whilst passengers still have the option to use cash.
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Post by paulsw2 on Aug 17, 2013 11:44:42 GMT
Who are these people though? The working middle class I'd suggest, exactly the sort of people you want to woo onto the bus. Scrapping the cash fare just adds another barrier/excuse for people to stay in their cars Not only that but its extremely difficult to find a open newsagent that does Oyster top up at night - in my area, the only 24 hour newsagent doesn't do Oyster top up anymore so I'd have to start walking to where I'd need to go. I'm also against this negative balance as it could lead to people avoiding to pay off the negative to return to positive. I'd prefer an exact change system brought in instead like what Dublin Buses have - that way, we have best of both worlds - drivers life is easier whilst passengers still have the option to use cash. The Oyster system uploads refunds and transactions at around 0230-0400 so there will be a problem with customers unable to top up.I believe this is just a way to force contactless card payments as TfL are trying to find a way to phase out Oyster in the long run.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 12:24:57 GMT
I'd prefer an exact change system brought in instead like what Dublin Buses have - that way, we have best of both worlds - drivers life is easier whilst passengers still have the option to use cash. Ahh like this video... www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLIMqYox06gIf you pay £1 on a 55p fare, (yes the Irish punt before the €uro) you get a voucher to get 45p back.
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Post by marlon101 on Aug 17, 2013 13:25:13 GMT
Who are these people though? The working middle class I'd suggest, exactly the sort of people you want to woo onto the bus. Scrapping the cash fare just adds another barrier/excuse for people to stay in their cars Not only that but its extremely difficult to find a open newsagent that does Oyster top up at night - in my area, the only 24 hour newsagent doesn't do Oyster top up anymore so I'd have to start walking to where I'd need to go. I'm also against this negative balance as it could lead to people avoiding to pay off the negative to return to positive. I'd prefer an exact change system brought in instead like what Dublin Buses have - that way, we have best of both worlds - drivers life is easier whilst passengers still have the option to use cash. It is extremely challenging where I am too. There's only one place in walking distance of me and that's an automated machine at the train station which is extremely unreliable. I understand your concerns about negative balances vjaska but I think there are things that can be done. It could be made possible to only allow negative balances on registered cards or cards that have opted in. I'd also be inclined to allow it on the grounds that you do pay a £5 deposit for the card I agree with you on the exact change thing, you'd probably get extra revenue flowing in from people paying £2.50+ unable to obtain change. MrEdd, I would be extremely reluctant to believe that its more expensive to process the cash fare than it collects. I'd also make the point again - we want people riding buses. Not being able to pay cash and robbing them blind when people rarely use the bus is only going to turn people away.
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Post by moz on Aug 17, 2013 15:15:14 GMT
Some may find it surprising that I actually don't support this proposal! Many of you have made the same observation as me in that it is sometimes quite difficult to find somewhere to top-up, even in the most built up areas. Prior to phasing out cash I'd at the very least like to see every Tube and Rail station fitted with an external Oyster top-up/ticket machine that is available 24 hours a day. Oyster users could top up, whilst occasional users could buy a bus 'token' (bit like the New York Subway token) that could be used in exchange for a single bus journey, much like the old saver tickets. Hand token to driver, driver issues ticket - simple! The token system could be extended to include shops with mobile top-up machines (they issue receipts, so why not tokens?), ATMs (again, you can get a printed receipt, so why not a token?), Pay and Display machines, in fact anywhere with a facility to print a receipt in exchange for payment.
Admittedly the tokens would need to be valid for a while longer than just one day, but then Saver tickets are still accepted and they haven't been on general sale for a few years now. Maybe make them valid for a year from day of issue and people could buy two or three to tuck into their pass wallet just in case their Oyster runs low - you know, like they used to do with Saver tickets! It would move cash off bus and all the driver would need to do is hand in as many tokens as tickets issued at the end of duty.
Moz
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 16:30:51 GMT
Some may find it surprising that I actually don't support this proposal! Many of you have made the same observation as me in that it is sometimes quite difficult to find somewhere to top-up, even in the most built up areas. Prior to phasing out cash I'd at the very least like to see every Tube and Rail station fitted with an external Oyster top-up/ticket machine that is available 24 hours a day. Oyster users could top up, whilst occasional users could buy a bus 'token' (bit like the New York Subway token) that could be used in exchange for a single bus journey, much like the old saver tickets. Hand token to driver, driver issues ticket - simple! The token system could be extended to include shops with mobile top-up machines (they issue receipts, so why not tokens?), ATMs (again, you can get a printed receipt, so why not a token?), Pay and Display machines, in fact anywhere with a facility to print a receipt in exchange for payment. Admittedly the tokens would need to be valid for a while longer than just one day, but then Saver tickets are still accepted and they haven't been on general sale for a few years now. Maybe make them valid for a year from day of issue and people could buy two or three to tuck into their pass wallet just in case their Oyster runs low - you know, like they used to do with Saver tickets! It would move cash off bus and all the driver would need to do is hand in as many tokens as tickets issued at the end of duty. Moz I think its better to reinstate the saver tickets in full. But they need to make the design that it will prevent any counter theft. Like the money notes. But regardless TFL need to keep the cash fares. But raise the fares a little so they can add a 90 minute transfer like what other transport operators do around the world.
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Post by rambo on Aug 18, 2013 17:22:01 GMT
Strage how people can remember to top up thier phones but have difficulty doing thier oyster....................
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Post by snoggle on Aug 18, 2013 18:15:06 GMT
Some may find it surprising that I actually don't support this proposal! Many of you have made the same observation as me in that it is sometimes quite difficult to find somewhere to top-up, even in the most built up areas. Prior to phasing out cash I'd at the very least like to see every Tube and Rail station fitted with an external Oyster top-up/ticket machine that is available 24 hours a day. Oyster users could top up, whilst occasional users could buy a bus 'token' (bit like the New York Subway token) that could be used in exchange for a single bus journey, much like the old saver tickets. Hand token to driver, driver issues ticket - simple! The token system could be extended to include shops with mobile top-up machines (they issue receipts, so why not tokens?), ATMs (again, you can get a printed receipt, so why not a token?), Pay and Display machines, in fact anywhere with a facility to print a receipt in exchange for payment. Admittedly the tokens would need to be valid for a while longer than just one day, but then Saver tickets are still accepted and they haven't been on general sale for a few years now. Maybe make them valid for a year from day of issue and people could buy two or three to tuck into their pass wallet just in case their Oyster runs low - you know, like they used to do with Saver tickets! It would move cash off bus and all the driver would need to do is hand in as many tokens as tickets issued at the end of duty. Moz While I understand where TfL are coming from and why I do not think they have adequate fall back positions or processes to deal with people who are genuinely stuck or genuinely vulnerable. There are just far too many justifiable circumstances where not accepting cash could leave people stuck and feeling very aggrieved towards the public transport network and its staff. Some people here will know that on the London's Transport Yahoo Group Leon Daniels has explained that he is proposing to allow people to "go negative" into their Oyster card deposit for one bus ride if they have no positive cash balance on their PAYG or their pass has expired. However the cash balance would have to be restored to at least zero and ideally a positive value for further travel. There is a whole pile of questions that leads on from this proposition which I won't debate here but it makes the operation of Oyster rather more involved. All of the responsibility will rest with drivers as to how they deal with people and regardless of training and briefings there will inevitably be some inconsistency in how people are treated. It will only take one instance of someone being refused travel and being thumped / raped / robbed and the press will go into ultra hysterical mode. This happened in Nottingham with Trent Barton and a young girl who was refused travel. Needless to say there was no sympathy for the bus driver or the bus company. The problem with your proposal is that it requires expenditure on new equipment and new processes and does nothing to get rid of the "handling" tasks for drivers, garage staff, collection companies and all the accountancy. TfL want to strip the "handling" cost out of every bus contract as they come up for renewal / extension. Their strategy is predicated on people using bank cards first and Oyster second. I don't see any change to this because tens of millions have been committed to the move to banks cards and possibly more tens of millions remain to be spent on later phases of the Future Ticketing Project. I also suspect, but don't know, that there is also an agenda to get ETMs off buses. If you make buses cashless there is no need for the ETM - you just need a card reader, a display and possibly a printer (for RCI bank card print outs or Oyster Card reads). If the driver is unable to handle cash or manipulate anything on a card he doesn't need to sign on to anything nor is there a need for an audit trail linked to a driver. It is possible that this is what TfL are asking for in their new contract for ticketing services which is going through its procurement phase now. I understand the current ETMs are knackered and way out of date so getting rid of them could be a big saving. I think the issue is immensely complicated and there is no easy answer when TfL are looking to save up to £24m a year. I expect TfL will decide to remove cash fares from buses and there'll be an unwritten rule about allowing people to travel for free where there is too much risk of adverse publicity. The problem will then turn into one of how to prevent mass abuse.
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Post by rambo on Aug 18, 2013 21:14:00 GMT
I think the issue is immensely complicated and there is no easy answer when TfL are looking to save up to £24m a year. I expect TfL will decide to remove cash fares from buses and there'll be an unwritten rule about allowing people to travel for free where there is too much risk of adverse publicity. The problem will then turn into one of how to prevent mass abuse.
And I can tell you now, mass abuse will follow.
The only way it would work is if ALL drivers follow the same line and are strict, but that won't happen.
As for vulnerable people, we are public transport, not social services. Ive been driving buses for about 5 yrs now, and in that time I can honsestly say I have not come accross 1 genuinely vulnerable person. I have however come accross loads of p*ss takers.
If TFL introduce a no cash rule, there needs to be plenty of information telling the public, well in advance.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Aug 18, 2013 21:45:21 GMT
How can a driver tell if a passenger is genuinely vulnerable? Most if not all of under 19s have some form of free bus travel which leaves adults. There will be some who'll try and abuse the system for a free bus ride.
However, the negative balance for one bus journey is better than nothing.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 18, 2013 22:20:36 GMT
And I can tell you now, mass abuse will follow. The only way it would work is if ALL drivers follow the same line and are strict, but that won't happen. As for vulnerable people, we are public transport, not social services. Ive been driving buses for about 5 yrs now, and in that time I can honsestly say I have not come accross 1 genuinely vulnerable person. I have however come accross loads of p*ss takers. If TFL introduce a no cash rule, there needs to be plenty of information telling the public, well in advance. And your reply sets out the flaws in TfL relying on processes. It's unrealistic to expect drivers, from a vast cross section of society and with different life experiences, to all act in the same way when it comes to assessing another person. As you say you've met lots of "chancers" who will try to bilk the system. We've had loads of remarks on the group in the past that show you're not alone in your experience or your reaction. No shock there and removing cash from buses just vastly increases the likelihood of more rows and delays. I think the basic issue with communication is that no matter how good or widespread the comms process is there will always be someone who has no clue as to how bus ticketing works or what an Oyster card is or whether they have a contactless bank card in their pocket. Therefore a "clueless person" will always turn up somewhere expecting to pay cash just like they can anywhere else in the UK (ignoring free services).
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