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Post by vjaska on Nov 4, 2013 1:36:14 GMT
The discussion in the Southeastern thread elsewhere about extending the Bakerloo line reminded me of an idea I thought of a few years ago. Most will probably disagree with the idea but I'll share it anyway.
A TfL report recently said that the 109 had an overcrowding issue, something which I've forseen in the past, and with the population growing, there are fears that tubeless South East London & the slightly less tubeless South London could buckle due to people's need to rely on the bus network. What I'm proposing is to extend the Victoria Line to East Croydon to help address the 109's problem and also give Croydon a cheaper link to Central London than train. There has been a proposal in the past to extend the Victoria Line but only as far as Herne Hill and it would of ran in a loop through Herne Hill rather than terminate.
Stops between Brixton & East Croydon would be located at:
Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Thornton Heath Pond? (This station is a maybe), West Croydon.
I feel this would help the 109 & other busy routes along the extension routing enormously and could cut the journey time between Brixton & Croydon alone by around 20-30 minutes.
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Post by VPL630 on Nov 4, 2013 3:00:55 GMT
The discussion in the Southeastern thread elsewhere about extending the Bakerloo line reminded me of an idea I thought of a few years ago. Most will probably disagree with the idea but I'll share it anyway. A TfL report recently said that the 109 had an overcrowding issue, something which I've forseen in the past, and with the population growing, there are fears that tubeless South East London & the slightly less tubeless South London could buckle due to people's need to rely on the bus network. What I'm proposing is to extend the Victoria Line to East Croydon to help address the 109's problem and also give Croydon a cheaper link to Central London than train. There has been a proposal in the past to extend the Victoria Line but only as far as Herne Hill and it would of ran in a loop through Herne Hill rather than terminate. Stops between Brixton & East Croydon would be located at: Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Thornton Heath Pond? (This station is a maybe), West Croydon. I feel this would help the 109 & other busy routes along the extension routing enormously and could cut the journey time between Brixton & Croydon alone by around 20-30 minutes. Do you know how much that would cost for a start and then building it
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Post by vjaska on Nov 4, 2013 4:11:58 GMT
The discussion in the Southeastern thread elsewhere about extending the Bakerloo line reminded me of an idea I thought of a few years ago. Most will probably disagree with the idea but I'll share it anyway. A TfL report recently said that the 109 had an overcrowding issue, something which I've forseen in the past, and with the population growing, there are fears that tubeless South East London & the slightly less tubeless South London could buckle due to people's need to rely on the bus network. What I'm proposing is to extend the Victoria Line to East Croydon to help address the 109's problem and also give Croydon a cheaper link to Central London than train. There has been a proposal in the past to extend the Victoria Line but only as far as Herne Hill and it would of ran in a loop through Herne Hill rather than terminate. Stops between Brixton & East Croydon would be located at: Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Thornton Heath Pond? (This station is a maybe), West Croydon. I feel this would help the 109 & other busy routes along the extension routing enormously and could cut the journey time between Brixton & Croydon alone by around 20-30 minutes. Do you know how much that would cost for a start and then building it Yes, I know tube lines are expensive to build - it's just an idea.
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Post by guybowden on Nov 4, 2013 6:16:28 GMT
I think it is a good idea, south of the river does generally lack underground connections compared to the north.
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Post by DT 11 on Nov 4, 2013 10:55:47 GMT
Do you know how much that would cost for a start and then building it Yes, I know tube lines are expensive to build - it's just an idea. Any idea to extend tube Lines inner South London I support. South London mainly South East literally has the most poor TFL train links in all of London, all that is something to do with the soil being weak apparently. There are only 7 tube stations which are North Greenwich, Canada Water, Bermondsey, London Bridge, Lambeth North, Elephant & Castle & Waterloo in South East London, we have DLR which isn't that much benefit. Overground, but all is pointless to have the Dalston Line terminating at New Cross when it could run via Lewisham - Dartford and even to Hayes. We have National Rail but the services are infrequent. Generally a lot of people in South East London rely on buses to get from A 2 B more than trains. From looking at The London assembly report I really was not surprised to see 9 South East London Routes being classed as the most overcrowded with the 185 being the number 1, a lot of people rely on buses in South East London and many routes around me are getting busier day in day out.
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Post by M1104 on Nov 4, 2013 11:17:24 GMT
Yes, I know tube lines are expensive to build - it's just an idea. Any idea to extend tube Lines inner South London I support. There are only 7 tube stations which are North Greenwich, Canada Water, Bermondsey, London Bridge, Lambeth North, Elephant & Castle & Waterloo in South East London. There're also Southwark and Borough tube stations.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 4, 2013 15:13:24 GMT
Can I ask what the objectives are for your tube extension? Is it to get people to East Croydon from the centre? To provide more frequent tube services in South London? Is it to just link bits of South London together? I note nearly all your proposed stops are already railway stations for example - there is nothing between those stops even though there might be a big hospital or huge area of housing deserving of better access. I can see a few issues. Brixton tube is chronically overloaded already. OK some of that loading would transfer to your stations but not all of it. It is likely an extended Victoria Line would be full on day one with existing South London users unable to board trains. While there would be some relief to National Rail services I doubt it would last long - simply because fast trains at East Croydon are very fast to Victoria and London Bridge and will always remain so which means people will choose them over a slower tube service. It is also worth noting that TfL recently reported that the Overground services in East London were supposed to transfer 6m jnys a year from the buses allowing the buses to be cut. While the transfer happened the buses immediately filled back up again! I would expect that would also happen in South London. You might be able to trim some routes but you'd not achieve a substantial cut because you would still need double deckers to feed people to your tube stations and they'd still logically go to Croydon and Brixton and Streatham as they're busy local centres which generate patronage. This is obviously quite a change from the past where big cuts to bus routes were made but the dynamics of the transport market in London have changed. I think London needs at least two and possibly 4 new tube lines but I'd build them to sub surface profile and let them be fully automatic so you can run very high capacity, high frequency services. I would also NOT extend existing routes unless the existing route is relatively lightly used - the Bakerloo is such a candidate but the Victoria Line is not. My new tube lines would run in new corridors and would service stations which are NOT interchanges with lots of other tube lines. This is because the stations are already chronically overloaded and new lines would make them unmanageable. The aim is to add capacity and spread the load across more Central area stations. This means some people would use the new lines thus relieving existing ones (for a period of time). Therefore you could have a line that stopped at St James Park (instead of Victoria), Hyde Park Corner, Marble Arch, Edgware Road or Marylebone which would get people to busy parts of London with new links but not overload existing stations. You would have interchanges at HPC and Marble Arch as they are single line stations today. That line could, for example, start in SE London and run to Elephant and then as suggested and possibly up the Edgware Road or via West Hampstead to Cricklewood / Brent Cross. There would need to be interchanges at suburban locations but with pressure taken off the centre. Similarly we need something like Richmond, Manor Circus, Barnes, Mortlake, Castlenau, Hammersmith, Olympia, High St Ken, Royal Albert Hall, Hyde Park Corner, Mayfair, Cambridge Circus, Bloomsbury, Kings Cross / Euston (new stop between the others), Angel, Essex Road, Dalston, Hackney. I'm not convinced about the plans for Crossrail 2! Just some rambling ideas
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 15:54:59 GMT
The discussion in the Southeastern thread elsewhere about extending the Bakerloo line reminded me of an idea I thought of a few years ago. Most will probably disagree with the idea but I'll share it anyway. A TfL report recently said that the 109 had an overcrowding issue, something which I've forseen in the past, and with the population growing, there are fears that tubeless South East London & the slightly less tubeless South London could buckle due to people's need to rely on the bus network. What I'm proposing is to extend the Victoria Line to East Croydon to help address the 109's problem and also give Croydon a cheaper link to Central London than train. There has been a proposal in the past to extend the Victoria Line but only as far as Herne Hill and it would of ran in a loop through Herne Hill rather than terminate. Stops between Brixton & East Croydon would be located at: Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Thornton Heath Pond? (This station is a maybe), West Croydon. I feel this would help the 109 & other busy routes along the extension routing enormously and could cut the journey time between Brixton & Croydon alone by around 20-30 minutes. Do you know how much that would cost for a start and then building it With that attitude nothing will ever get built I think it's an excellent idea for local journies south of Brixton as much as anything else, the 109 can be tiresomely slow. Is the Central London section at full capacity? If not additional shorts could run between Brixton (building a new Kennington style loop) and Seven Sisters.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 4, 2013 16:34:49 GMT
Do you know how much that would cost for a start and then building it Is the Central London section at full capacity? If not additional shorts could run between Brixton (building a new Kennington style loop) and Seven Sisters. Yes the Central area is extremely busy - TfL are apparently looking to squeeze 36tph in the peaks on the Victoria Line. That will involve some very slick working at Brixton. Trying to merge a service from Croydon with one starting at Brixton will be a tough call. I doubt there would be a loop - any new tunnels would diverge just south of Brixton to leave the overrun tunnels as sidings / turn backs. Alternatively you could build new tunnels that skirt the existing ones allowing two trains to arrive southbound and northbound with large island platforms between the tracks. This would allow any terminating / commencing trains to not block any trains on the extension. Obviously there are several ways to configure tracks depending how much you want to spend. Loops cause problems because trains turn round and get uneven wear on wheelsets. I recognise there is a divergent service at the north end but that does not work perfectly as trains are held in tunnels waiting for trains to clear platforms at Seven Sisters.
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Post by twobellstogo on Nov 4, 2013 20:06:32 GMT
The discussion in the Southeastern thread elsewhere about extending the Bakerloo line reminded me of an idea I thought of a few years ago. Most will probably disagree with the idea but I'll share it anyway. A TfL report recently said that the 109 had an overcrowding issue, something which I've forseen in the past, and with the population growing, there are fears that tubeless South East London & the slightly less tubeless South London could buckle due to people's need to rely on the bus network. What I'm proposing is to extend the Victoria Line to East Croydon to help address the 109's problem and also give Croydon a cheaper link to Central London than train. There has been a proposal in the past to extend the Victoria Line but only as far as Herne Hill and it would of ran in a loop through Herne Hill rather than terminate. Stops between Brixton & East Croydon would be located at: Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Thornton Heath Pond? (This station is a maybe), West Croydon. I feel this would help the 109 & other busy routes along the extension routing enormously and could cut the journey time between Brixton & Croydon alone by around 20-30 minutes. I think I'd prefer a Tramlink extension over the 109 to Brixton rather than the Vic. Apart from Brixton being perhaps not the ideal terminal arrangement (a Herne Hill loop would IMO be desirable), I think the Vic should be left alone. Snoggle mentions new LU lines to serve SE London. This I think is a good idea : we're rather lacking in such links here. Three different thoughts I have... * Welling - Shooters Hill - Blackheath Royal Standard - Greenwich Park - Deptford Bridge - New Cross - New Cross Gate - Queen's Road Peckham - Peckham Library - Camberwell - Oval - Vauxhall - St. James's Park - Hyde Park Corner - Marble Arch - Edgware Road then points NW. * Forest Hill - Dulwich Library - East Dulwich - Denmark Hill - Camberwell - Walworth Road - Kennington - Southwark - Blackfriars - Farringdon - Finsbury - Angel - Highbury & Islington then points N. * Falconwood - Eltham Southend Crescent - Eltham Green - Lee Green - Lewisham - New Cross Gate - Canal Bridge - Bricklayer's Arms - Elephant & Castle - Southwark - Temple - Covent Garden - Goodge Street - Great Portland Street - Primrose Hill then points N
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Post by vjaska on Nov 4, 2013 21:30:25 GMT
The discussion in the Southeastern thread elsewhere about extending the Bakerloo line reminded me of an idea I thought of a few years ago. Most will probably disagree with the idea but I'll share it anyway. A TfL report recently said that the 109 had an overcrowding issue, something which I've forseen in the past, and with the population growing, there are fears that tubeless South East London & the slightly less tubeless South London could buckle due to people's need to rely on the bus network. What I'm proposing is to extend the Victoria Line to East Croydon to help address the 109's problem and also give Croydon a cheaper link to Central London than train. There has been a proposal in the past to extend the Victoria Line but only as far as Herne Hill and it would of ran in a loop through Herne Hill rather than terminate. Stops between Brixton & East Croydon would be located at: Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Thornton Heath Pond? (This station is a maybe), West Croydon. I feel this would help the 109 & other busy routes along the extension routing enormously and could cut the journey time between Brixton & Croydon alone by around 20-30 minutes. I think I'd prefer a Tramlink extension over the 109 to Brixton rather than the Vic. Apart from Brixton being perhaps not the ideal terminal arrangement (a Herne Hill loop would IMO be desirable), I think the Vic should be left alone. Snoggle mentions new LU lines to serve SE London. This I think is a good idea : we're rather lacking in such links here. Three different thoughts I have... * Welling - Shooters Hill - Blackheath Royal Standard - Greenwich Park - Deptford Bridge - New Cross - New Cross Gate - Queen's Road Peckham - Peckham Library - Camberwell - Oval - Vauxhall - St. James's Park - Hyde Park Corner - Marble Arch - Edgware Road then points NW. * Forest Hill - Dulwich Library - East Dulwich - Denmark Hill - Camberwell - Walworth Road - Kennington - Southwark - Blackfriars - Farringdon - Finsbury - Angel - Highbury & Islington then points N. * Falconwood - Eltham Southend Crescent - Eltham Green - Lee Green - Lewisham - New Cross Gate - Canal Bridge - Bricklayer's Arms - Elephant & Castle - Southwark - Temple - Covent Garden - Goodge Street - Great Portland Street - Primrose Hill then points N A Tramlink extension would simply be unworkable - the A23 is not particularly wide between Purley Way and Streatham and is an extremely busy route, besides I think Tramlink is best confined to where it's situated currently - the long awaited extension to Crystal Palace would be as far north as I'd go.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 19, 2013 3:18:36 GMT
Can I ask what the objectives are for your tube extension? Is it to get people to East Croydon from the centre? To provide more frequent tube services in South London? Is it to just link bits of South London together? I note nearly all your proposed stops are already railway stations for example - there is nothing between those stops even though there might be a big hospital or huge area of housing deserving of better access. I can see a few issues. Brixton tube is chronically overloaded already. OK some of that loading would transfer to your stations but not all of it. It is likely an extended Victoria Line would be full on day one with existing South London users unable to board trains. While there would be some relief to National Rail services I doubt it would last long - simply because fast trains at East Croydon are very fast to Victoria and London Bridge and will always remain so which means people will choose them over a slower tube service. It is also worth noting that TfL recently reported that the Overground services in East London were supposed to transfer 6m jnys a year from the buses allowing the buses to be cut. While the transfer happened the buses immediately filled back up again! I would expect that would also happen in South London. You might be able to trim some routes but you'd not achieve a substantial cut because you would still need double deckers to feed people to your tube stations and they'd still logically go to Croydon and Brixton and Streatham as they're busy local centres which generate patronage. This is obviously quite a change from the past where big cuts to bus routes were made but the dynamics of the transport market in London have changed. I think London needs at least two and possibly 4 new tube lines but I'd build them to sub surface profile and let them be fully automatic so you can run very high capacity, high frequency services. I would also NOT extend existing routes unless the existing route is relatively lightly used - the Bakerloo is such a candidate but the Victoria Line is not. My new tube lines would run in new corridors and would service stations which are NOT interchanges with lots of other tube lines. This is because the stations are already chronically overloaded and new lines would make them unmanageable. The aim is to add capacity and spread the load across more Central area stations. This means some people would use the new lines thus relieving existing ones (for a period of time). Therefore you could have a line that stopped at St James Park (instead of Victoria), Hyde Park Corner, Marble Arch, Edgware Road or Marylebone which would get people to busy parts of London with new links but not overload existing stations. You would have interchanges at HPC and Marble Arch as they are single line stations today. That line could, for example, start in SE London and run to Elephant and then as suggested and possibly up the Edgware Road or via West Hampstead to Cricklewood / Brent Cross. There would need to be interchanges at suburban locations but with pressure taken off the centre. Similarly we need something like Richmond, Manor Circus, Barnes, Mortlake, Castlenau, Hammersmith, Olympia, High St Ken, Royal Albert Hall, Hyde Park Corner, Mayfair, Cambridge Circus, Bloomsbury, Kings Cross / Euston (new stop between the others), Angel, Essex Road, Dalston, Hackney. I'm not convinced about the plans for Crossrail 2! Just some rambling ideas Sorry for the late reply. It's a little bit of all three of the objectives you mentioned plus reducing the time taken between those places on other modes of public transport. The reason why I chose those stops is they are the main stops between Brixton & Croydon and there isn't much else in between. Thornton Heath Pond is a place I'm undecided on giving a station to though it would provide nearer access to the only major hospital on the route (Croydon University Hospital or Mayday Hospital in old money) than West Croydon or Thornton Heath. Upper Norwood was one other that crept in my mind but I felt with one being at West Norwood, they would still be ok in terms of access to the extension. The extension would bring some relief to Herne Hill which is listed as a future 'pinch point' by TfL - an expensive rebuild of the layout of the tracks is most likely needed to sort out future capacity issues at Herne Hill. Brixton is a very busy station - 6th busiest outside of Central London & the busiest on the Victoria Line outside Central London but I feel that is more to with the fact that it's a terminus and thus runs no further into the South & South East and the fact that it is one of the best places for numerous, high frequency bus links in London. Because of that, I'd predict that Brixton would be less busier than it is now if the line was extended. As for fast links from East Croydon to London, yes they are fast but they are more expensive than the Underground would be. The Underground would be longer - not going to deny that but he journey time from Brixton to Croydon would be just under 30 minutes - currently by bus, it takes near to an hour to do the same journey. No bus services would be cut - the extension would work alongside current bus services. The 109 should see the greatest improvement of all routes as it's been reported in one of TfL's reports as overcrowded so in theory should see an improvement capacity wise. I agree with you in that London does need a few more tube lines and I'm also not convinced by parts of Crossrail 2 either. Would of preferred it if stuck to being a tube line running from Sutton or Wimbledon to Hackney via Clapham Junction & Euston. Other route ideas of mine would be a Bakerloo extension to Bromley via Lewisham - I'll let others work out a route for that and a new line running to Thamesmead & Bexleyheath. I'd also look at the Northern Line's current extension to Battersea and add a section to Clapham Junction - just some of my own ramblings
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Post by towerman on Nov 29, 2013 16:26:14 GMT
There were plans to extend the Victoria Line from Brixton to Croydon in the 70's via Streatham & Thornton Heath but British Rail objected and the plan was shelved.BTW,back in the mid 20's when the Northern Line extended to Morden there were plans to take over the Wimbledon Loop,but again it was shelved due to objections from the Southern Railway.
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 29, 2013 19:19:41 GMT
There were plans to extend the Victoria Line from Brixton to Croydon in the 70's via Streatham & Thornton Heath but British Rail objected and the plan was shelved.BTW,back in the mid 20's when the Northern Line extended to Morden there were plans to take over the Wimbledon Loop,but again it was shelved due to objections from the Southern Railway. "...objections from the Southern Railway." That explains why there are so few tube lines south of the river.(Ignore the Jubilee and the Victoria which are post war)
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Post by M1104 on Nov 30, 2013 11:17:12 GMT
There were plans to extend the Victoria Line from Brixton to Croydon in the 70's via Streatham & Thornton Heath but British Rail objected and the plan was shelved.BTW,back in the mid 20's when the Northern Line extended to Morden there were plans to take over the Wimbledon Loop,but again it was shelved due to objections from the Southern Railway. Pre war plans to extend (or initially create) the Northern Line beyond Morden to Sutton were also shelved, this coming into part of the Wimbledon loop you mentioned.
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