Vehicle size

[londontravel]

Thought that came to mind. With the increase in bus passengers and a lot of routes overcrowded in rush hours, would having larger buses where possible help towards the problem ? As an example, stagecoach now order the shortbase enviro400, when a lot of routes could handle the 10.6m versions, whilst maybe not giving that much more capacity, could help ? The 53 as an example could definitely benefit, even with the 453 still gets overcrowded beyond deptford . There are a lot of other route sim sure others could think of .

[Nathan]

I don't think it will make much of a difference. Even when the 53 uses long-base ALX400s, it's still pretty crowded. I remember watching 'Running London's Roads' last year. In the the part where there was a meeting held about the 343, someone said that if even if they were to put more buses out, more and more people would start using the route more, which will mean that the same problem (of overcrowding) would still occur. He said something along the lines of that anyway.

[londontravel]

It might not resolve overcrowding but it would help in those passengers that would otherwise be left behind being able to get the bus they're after. There is the argument people that have passes can change from one bus to another but a lot like to take one direct bus if available .

[Hassaan]

Jan 19, 2014 10:51:50 GMT londontravel said:

Thought that came to mind. With the increase in bus passengers and a lot of routes overcrowded in rush hours, would having larger buses where possible help towards the problem ? As an example, stagecoach now order the shortbase enviro400, when a lot of routes could handle the 10.6m versions, whilst maybe not giving that much more capacity, could help ? The 53 as an example could definitely benefit, even with the 453 still gets overcrowded beyond deptford . There are a lot of other route sim sure others could think of .

Longer E400's do provide a bit of extra room inside but I think legal capacity might be roughly the same as the shorter ones. And because TfL contracts usually offer very little (if any) incentive to exceed the minimum terms specified, the short E400 gets ordered because it gives the usual TfL minimum double deck capacity of 87 so why spend any more than necessary? (of course anyone feel free to correct what I said )

[vjaska]

Jan 19, 2014 10:51:50 GMT londontravel said:

Thought that came to mind. With the increase in bus passengers and a lot of routes overcrowded in rush hours, would having larger buses where possible help towards the problem ? As an example, stagecoach now order the shortbase enviro400, when a lot of routes could handle the 10.6m versions, whilst maybe not giving that much more capacity, could help ? The 53 as an example could definitely benefit, even with the 453 still gets overcrowded beyond deptford . There are a lot of other route sim sure others could think of .

There are no 10.6m Enviro 400's - Integral Enviro 400 lengths are as follows:

Euro III & Euro IV

SWB - 10.1m
LWB - 10.8m

Euro V

SWB - 10.2m
LWB - 10.9m
Provincial Hybrid - 11.4m

Euro VI

SWB - 10.3m
LWB - 11m
Provincial Hybrid - it should be 11.5m if any are built

[Volvo]

Vjaska the Hybrid E400H for provinces also come in 10.9m too which is strange

[Nathan]

Jan 19, 2014 12:21:38 GMT londontravel said:

It might not resolve overcrowding but it would help in those passengers that would otherwise be left behind being able to get the bus they're after. There is the argument people that have passes can change from one bus to another but a lot like to take one direct bus if available .

That's why there's always frequency changes being made, as well as more buses being put out. But even without this, longer buses would only fit maybe 3 - 5 more people on. They might as well wait for the next bus, or take an alternative one if available. 

[snoggle]

Jan 19, 2014 10:51:50 GMT londontravel said:

Thought that came to mind. With the increase in bus passengers and a lot of routes overcrowded in rush hours, would having larger buses where possible help towards the problem ? As an example, stagecoach now order the shortbase enviro400, when a lot of routes could handle the 10.6m versions, whilst maybe not giving that much more capacity, could help ? The 53 as an example could definitely benefit, even with the 453 still gets overcrowded beyond deptford . There are a lot of other route sim sure others could think of .

It's always a balancing act. If you stuff more people inside a vehicle then you risk longer dwell times at stops *unless* you have more doors. Having marginally longer double deckers in London won't solve the overcrowding issue simply because demand is so high at some places. However I do tend to feel that the seating arrangement is better on longer double decks - there are usually more seats in "no step" area downstairs which helps older / infirm people who can't manage the stairs. A few more seats upstairs also doesn't hurt. Obviously a bigger bus is heavier so will cost a bit more to run in terms of fuel. As others have said there is no incentive for operators to buy buses with a capacity higher than 87 pax which is a bit daft to me. There must be routes where the marginal capacity increase would be beneficial.

Dwell time is a key element and if it becomes too long then you might end up with needing more buses just to run the same level of service. This is partly why TfL has made so much effort to keep dwell times low. Dwell time is also a key reason for TfL rejecting 12m long double decks. The other aspect is bus priority to keep buses moving and there has been much less emphasis on this in recent years.

If you add more buses to a route and improve frequencies then it is almost guaranteed that you will get a lot of extra patronage. I imagine that must be in the back of TfL's mind with the 136 extension but it has no real choice given the horrendous overcrowding in North Peckham. It will be very interesting to see how things develop if / when the route is extended.

[snoggle]

Hopefully a simple question. Is the NB4L marginally wider than other modern double deckers or am I just imagining that is a bit wider? It certainly looks wider when viewed head on.

[londonbusboy]

Sept 11, 2014 19:53:18 GMT snoggle said:

Hopefully a simple question. Is the NB4L marginally wider than other modern double deckers or am I just imagining that is a bit wider? It certainly looks wider when viewed head on.

From some research an enviro 400 and NBFL are both 2550mm wide

[Deleted]

Even if a longer bus only holds around 5 more people, if a route has a PVR of say 30, then that's 150 extra passengers which is like 1.5 extra buses but cheaper.