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Post by snoggle on Jul 7, 2014 13:14:47 GMT
Snoggle, this "lunatic scheme" has already been signed off... my timeframe may be a little off but it is definitely going ahead. SWT are reviewing stock they will scrap, anything they cannot fit a pantograph to and convert from DC to AC. I think they are already fitting some stock with new AC traction motors. Stuff like the Class 442 and 456 will go, the newer stock like the 450 Desiro's can be converted to Dual Voltage. They are looking to get rid of 3rd rail altogether as it's obsolete and inefficient... but we are still looking at years down the line... I fear we must disagree about third rail. I don't buy this "obsolete and inefficient" argument. Like any system it has advantages and disadvantages. There are plenty of Metros in the world that are perfectly happy to install third rail from new and design out any perceived inefficiencies. There are plenty of issues with overhead wires - witness the Channel Tunnel as we speak and the years of problems on the West Coast when a combination of shoddy workmanship and Pendolino pantograph problems caused havoc. Network Rail have talked themseives into a corner over third rail because of how they've evaluated the safety risk. They've used that to justify not extending third rail meaning sensible infill electrification schemes on bits of "Southern Region" territory are not allowed to proceed. That's just utter utter nonsense. There are far, far better uses of the money that would be spent on stringing wires on lines that are already electrified. It would make far more sense to electrify to Uckfield, Redhill - Guildford, Ashford - Hastings etc and release the DMUs for use elsewhere in the UK.
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Post by M1104 on Jul 7, 2014 13:39:22 GMT
If you can try riding one from Bermondsey to London Bridge, which to me it's where it goes the fastest when it gets a clear run with all green lights. Once it gets into the older tunnels it doesn't seem to go as fast, bearing in mind the stops are closer together. Past Finchley Road (surface level) it is faster again, but not quite as fast as the Bermondsey to Canada water stretch. Best bit is Canada Water to Canary Wharf. I made a mistake, it's not Bermondsey to Canada Water but Bermondsey to London Bridge....and Neasden to Wembley Park.
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 7, 2014 13:46:45 GMT
Snoggle, this "lunatic scheme" has already been signed off... my timeframe may be a little off but it is definitely going ahead. SWT are reviewing stock they will scrap, anything they cannot fit a pantograph to and convert from DC to AC. I think they are already fitting some stock with new AC traction motors. Stuff like the Class 442 and 456 will go, the newer stock like the 450 Desiro's can be converted to Dual Voltage. They are looking to get rid of 3rd rail altogether as it's obsolete and inefficient... but we are still looking at years down the line... All the new long distance stock one sees at Waterloo, there is a "depression" on one of the four carriages which no doubt is for a pantograph.
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Post by snowman on Jul 7, 2014 17:06:04 GMT
Snoggle, this "lunatic scheme" has already been signed off... my timeframe may be a little off but it is definitely going ahead. SWT are reviewing stock they will scrap, anything they cannot fit a pantograph to and convert from DC to AC. I think they are already fitting some stock with new AC traction motors. Stuff like the Class 442 and 456 will go, the newer stock like the 450 Desiro's can be converted to Dual Voltage. They are looking to get rid of 3rd rail altogether as it's obsolete and inefficient... but we are still looking at years down the line... All the new long distance stock one sees at Waterloo, there is a "depression" on one of the four carriages which no doubt is for a pantograph. Yes the desiros could be fitted, but there are 127 blue and 45 white ones which is a lot of pantographs, transformers and rectifier sets to buy. Ironically the first 19 were ordered with AC equipment. Angel trains ordered 25 sets speculatively, 3 were used as prototypes, 19 units became part of SWT order (the AC equipment wasn't used and got fitted to 360s instead), the other 3 got moved after SWT fleet and were incorporated into later orders. Last I heard was the dc equipment might stay for few years to avoid retrofitting the desiros (the substation at Eastleigh powers the Fareham line and the One at Worting Jn covers Basingstoke station) so maintaing 3rd rail is less than altering all the trains. The Salisbury Laverstock Redbridge diversionary route might be electrified as well.
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 7, 2014 17:36:51 GMT
All the new long distance stock one sees at Waterloo, there is a "depression" on one of the four carriages which no doubt is for a pantograph. Yes the desiros could be fitted, but there are 127 blue and 45 white ones which is a lot of pantographs, transformers and rectifier sets to buy. Ironically the first 19 were ordered with AC equipment. Angel trains ordered 25 sets speculatively, 3 were used as prototypes, 19 units became part of SWT order (the AC equipment wasn't used and got fitted to 360s instead), the other 3 got moved after SWT fleet and were incorporated into later orders. Last I heard was the dc equipment might stay for few years to avoid retrofitting the desiros (the substation at Eastleigh powers the Fareham line and the One at Worting Jn covers Basingstoke station) so maintaing 3rd rail is less than altering all the trains. The Salisbury Laverstock Redbridge diversionary route might be electrified as well. It's ironic we're now discussing O/H as opposed to 3rd rail, considering that parts of the Southern were O/H in the 1920's. When you look at the infrastructure of the 'Southern' the cost to convert to O/H doesn't bear thinking about.
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Post by ServerKing on Jul 7, 2014 18:16:10 GMT
Personally, I really don't understand why people don't like the C stock, sure they were tired looking but so are the Nothern Line trains and they've not even hit 20 years old. I liked the C stock, they sounded a bit more grunty than the D stock which I dislike very much because they sound so boring. I also liked the grunty sound of the C stock, which I initially found a bit of a surprise as they are the big version of the Victoria line's old 67 stock and had expected them to sound similar. I also like the D stock as they sound like the Piccadilly line, except they are a lot slower, which was a bit of a nuisance. I also like the noise rhythms when they roll over tracks, sort of a "dada-dada dada-dada....dada-dada dada-dada" instead of the usual "dada-dada.....dada-dada". that fast rail join rhythm is part of a new rail 'section' linked to the signal... on some parts of the District and Picadilly line, as the train leaves the station and 'section', it makes the same clickety-clack sound (caused by 2 rail joins on one side near the tripcock switch - the tripcock slams on the train's brakes if it goes through a 'section' with a red signal)... listen to the trains at Barking, South Ken, Hammersmith and Northfields 1973 and D stock have similar sized bogies (not the stuff from your nose ) so the wheels make the same sound on the track. I only learnt all this in an TfL / Underground Equipment Room Access course, to fix the IT systems in stations and depots during 2005 Sadly most modern railways, and increasingly the tube, have done away with the 'clickety-clack' of the track with continuous welded rail...
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Post by RM5chris on Jul 7, 2014 20:07:37 GMT
I'm sure they used to sound different when they were silver - especially when pulling away. As part of the car refurb in 1991/92? I wonder how much (if any) of the running gear was changed etc i.e. was a different type of traction motor or other equipment fitted?
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Post by RM5chris on Jul 7, 2014 20:47:05 GMT
I like the 1973 Tube Stock on the Piccadilly line, 1992 Tube Stock on the Central Line and the D Stock on the District Line are my favourites because I like the way they look and sound. I always wondered could the Tube stock be powered with the third rail? It can if modified - the ex LT38 stock on the Isle of Wight runs on the BR 3rd rail system rather 4 rail system as per LT - I seem to recall pictures of them on test on the main lines around Eastleigh (I think) when overhauled by NSE. I also seem to recall LT locomotive Sarah Siddons working railtours over the Southern 3 rail system in the 1980s - again so modification is possible.
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Post by M1104 on Jul 7, 2014 20:49:21 GMT
I'm sure they used to sound different when they were silver - especially when pulling away. As part of the car refurb in 1991/92? I wonder how much (if any) of the running gear was changed etc i.e. was a different type of traction motor or other equipment fitted? They sounded even louder pre refurb.
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Post by ajw on Jul 8, 2014 14:13:43 GMT
Snoggle, this "lunatic scheme" has already been signed off... my timeframe may be a little off but it is definitely going ahead. SWT are reviewing stock they will scrap, anything they cannot fit a pantograph to and convert from DC to AC. I think they are already fitting some stock with new AC traction motors. Stuff like the Class 442 and 456 will go, the newer stock like the 450 Desiro's can be converted to Dual Voltage. They are looking to get rid of 3rd rail altogether as it's obsolete and inefficient... but we are still looking at years down the line... Traction motors have nothing what so ever to do with line voltage or method of delivery. You can have either AC or DC traction motors with both AC and DC line power. Besides most, if not all modern AC traction motors used on trains are 3 phase, which means even with an AC line voltage, which is clearly single phase it must first be converted to DC, then converted to 3 phase AC using a process known as phase conversion. If the line is already DC, then the conversion is just to 3 phase AC. The real issue between 3rd rail and overhead rail is the amount of power that can be delivered to the train. 3rd rail has voltage limitations due to its relative closeness to the ground, which in turn limits current available to run the train. This in turn means has an effect on the conductor size required to deliver the power and the number of substations required to feed the line. DC overhead also has some of these limitations too might I add. With higher speeds and air-conditioning the power demands on modern trains are significantly higher than what they were even say 20 years ago. This is were AC, specially at high voltage (25KV) comes into its own. Being high above the ground the voltage can be higher, which in turn means the size of the cable supported by the catenary can be smaller, which in turn means lighter support systems, whilst still delivering the required power. Substation spacing can also be significantly reduced. When it comes to the actual rolling stock, the biggest issue in converting to dual voltage is finding space to fit the equipment required to support both voltages. The class 450 has been designed to be capable and has space for the pantograph and the necessary electrical gear to support dual voltage operation. The 442's and 456 different story, much harder to convert and probably not even financially viable. Your partially right about 3rd rail being obsolete and inefficient, though you should probably qualify that by saying on heavy rail mainline style trains for the reason that 3rd rail cannot operate at a high enough voltage to supply modern trains with a reasonable amount of sub-stations, and of course the safety aspects of exposed 3rd rail in isolated areas. In a metro environment 3rd rail it is still very much in vogue, though of course modern systems generally use protected 3rd rail systems whereby the rail head is protected and the shoes collect from the underside and of course the power demands are no where near as great as what they would be for fullsized mainline trains.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 23:16:59 GMT
I'm a buses person, not a train person. Reading these last couple of pages I'm utterly confused. I don't really understand anything. Could someone explain? Eg, what's AC and DC? What's third rail? What's a pantograph? What's SWT? And where did the C stock used to operate?
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Post by bigbaddom1981 on Jul 16, 2014 23:29:17 GMT
I'm a buses person, not a train person. Reading these last couple of pages I'm utterly confused. I don't really understand anything. Could someone explain? Eg, what's AC and DC? What's third rail? What's a pantograph? What's SWT? And where did the C stock used to operate? AC/DC is a form of current used by trains to draw power (AC/DC is also a band) Third Rail is what is used by some trains to draw power and is normally the outside rail seperate to the tracks. A Pantograph is the other way a train draws power, this time from overhead power lines. The pantograph is the instrument you see on top of trains that touches the wires overhead. SWT is a Train Operating Company (TOC) and is an abbreviation of South West Trains (SWT) C stock is/was a type of train used last on the Circle, Hammersmirh & City and some District Line services on the London Underground. Sub Service trains use letters to identify stock, such as the new S stock and Deep Level lines use the year to identify stock such as the Victoria Line 09 stock Hope this answers your question You could always google if you are unsure!
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Post by vjaska on Jul 16, 2014 23:34:20 GMT
I'm a buses person, not a train person. Reading these last couple of pages I'm utterly confused. I don't really understand anything. Could someone explain? Eg, what's AC and DC? What's third rail? What's a pantograph? What's SWT? And where did the C stock used to operate? AC/DC is a form of current used by trains to draw power (AC/DC is also a band) Third Rail is what is used by some trains to draw power and is normally the outside rail seperate to the tracks. A Pantograph is the other way a train draws power, this time from overhead power lines. The pantograph is the instrument you see on top of trains that touches the wires overhead. SWT is a Train Operating Company (TOC) and is an abbreviation of South West Trains (SWT) C stock is/was a type of train used last on the Circle, Hammersmirh & City and some District Line services on the London Underground. Sub Service trains use letters to identify stock, such as the new S stock and Deep Level lines use the year to identify stock such as the Victoria Line 09 stock Hope this answers your question You could always google if you are unsure! I'm 'Thunderstruck' by your answer lol.
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Post by bigbaddom1981 on Jul 16, 2014 23:39:58 GMT
AC/DC is a form of current used by trains to draw power (AC/DC is also a band) Third Rail is what is used by some trains to draw power and is normally the outside rail seperate to the tracks. A Pantograph is the other way a train draws power, this time from overhead power lines. The pantograph is the instrument you see on top of trains that touches the wires overhead. SWT is a Train Operating Company (TOC) and is an abbreviation of South West Trains (SWT) C stock is/was a type of train used last on the Circle, Hammersmirh & City and some District Line services on the London Underground. Sub Service trains use letters to identify stock, such as the new S stock and Deep Level lines use the year to identify stock such as the Victoria Line 09 stock Hope this answers your question You could always google if you are unsure! I'm 'Thunderstruck' by your answer lol. Erm sucking eggs?
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Post by COBO on Jul 17, 2014 0:01:21 GMT
paulsw2 that's always a risk, or a pantograph tearing the thing down... modern lines have tensioning stuff that keeps the wires tight so wires coming down not as common as it used to be. COBO, Yes, they are trialling new pedal-powered 'P' Stock as we speak on the Waterloo & City line. You have to be pretty fit to operate the trains though, so it requires 8 members of staff at the pedals in each carriage, and they have to switch ends when the train returns to Bank Like one of these
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