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Post by vjaska on Apr 24, 2015 18:34:52 GMT
The Northern Line ATO is pretty rubbish IMO. Whoever designed the software seems to think the accelerator is an "on/off" switch with nothing in between. Then there is the target speed which the train tries to maintain at the expense of comfort. As a result the train will apply power for a second, reach target speed, then exceed it ever so slightly, apply brake {repeat cycle continuously}. It makes for a jarring ride when it frequently alternates between accelerating and braking. Why can they not make it as smooth as the Victoria Line system? Oh, I'm not impressed either with the refurbished seats. Bring back the old sprung seat bases. It feels like I'm now sitting on a park bench. Though the seats are no where near as bad as the Victoria Line's which are too low to the ground, shallow and upright. Whoever designed the Victoria Lines seats clearly did not try sitting on one as a prototype. A very spot on analysis. Have you ever been on the Northern Line from Totteridge and Whetstone and High Barnet? If you have not, sit at the end of any carriage, you will feel something The Victoria seats are a bit hard. I used to enjoy bouncing from Kings Cross, down the hill to Seven Sisters! The Victoria line is really trying to compete with the central line in terms of the speed it approaches station! I don't think it competes, it's faster than the Central Line trains for sure
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 24, 2015 21:00:05 GMT
The Northern Line ATO is pretty rubbish IMO. Whoever designed the software seems to think the accelerator is an "on/off" switch with nothing in between. Then there is the target speed which the train tries to maintain at the expense of comfort. As a result the train will apply power for a second, reach target speed, then exceed it ever so slightly, apply brake {repeat cycle continuously}. It makes for a jarring ride when it frequently alternates between accelerating and braking. Why can they not make it as smooth as the Victoria Line system? Oh, I'm not impressed either with the refurbished seats. Bring back the old sprung seat bases. It feels like I'm now sitting on a park bench. Though the seats are no where near as bad as the Victoria Line's which are too low to the ground, shallow and upright. Whoever designed the Victoria Lines seats clearly did not try sitting on one as a prototype. I believe the difference is ride quality is down to the number of junctions and speed limits that are located along the Northern Line, opposed to the Victoria Line which has consistent fast running speed throughout except at the Northumberland Park depot. I could be wrong. I personally prefer the Northern Line in its current form, as journeys have gotten faster. The Victoria Line and the Central Line both use different systems to the Northern Line, one that is also used on the Jubilee Line. Comparing the Northern and the Jubilee, the Northern has a lot of sharp curves and other locations where the speed is low, which may be why it feels worse than the Jubilee Line, but yes, both have the "binary" driving issue.
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 24, 2015 21:11:39 GMT
Though the seats are no where near as bad as the Victoria Line's which are too low to the ground, shallow and upright. Whoever designed the Victoria Lines seats clearly did not try sitting on one as a prototype. Many years ago I visited the mock up of the Victoria Line stock when it was at Euston, out near the bus station. I commented then, to the Line General Manager, that the seats were awful - too narrow for a fat git like me and very uncomfortable compared to the sprung seating in 67 stock. I was told that a certain Managing Director [1] had sat in the Vic Line seats and declared them satisfactory. No one dared change them after that. I have heard subsequently that once the trains went into regular service the seat design and the colouring were thought not to be the best. However we're stuck with them for decades now. I think there's been a policy decision to take out padded seat cushions because they cost money to keep "plush" because the springs get damaged and the moquette crinkles. This gets marked down in Mystery Shopper Surveys so having flat bench like seats takes those problems away. The fact the trains are uncomfortable is neither here nor there. [1] not the current MD. See, this is where the difference in preferences comes into play . I find the 09 stock and S Stock seats perfect, and seem to have become used to the 95 and 96 stock ones but they're still not very comfortable . I know in the previous 95 stock seats, if you tried sitting even close to upright, you'd have a bar underneath the seat dig into you. Then there is also springs getting damaged and sticking out on the 73 stock. The 09 and S Stocks seem to use foam padding instead of springs like on the older trains, which is why they probably feel less comfortable.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 24, 2015 21:16:28 GMT
Many years ago I visited the mock up of the Victoria Line stock when it was at Euston, out near the bus station. I commented then, to the Line General Manager, that the seats were awful - too narrow for a fat git like me and very uncomfortable compared to the sprung seating in 67 stock. I was told that a certain Managing Director [1] had sat in the Vic Line seats and declared them satisfactory. No one dared change them after that. I have heard subsequently that once the trains went into regular service the seat design and the colouring were thought not to be the best. However we're stuck with them for decades now. I think there's been a policy decision to take out padded seat cushions because they cost money to keep "plush" because the springs get damaged and the moquette crinkles. This gets marked down in Mystery Shopper Surveys so having flat bench like seats takes those problems away. The fact the trains are uncomfortable is neither here nor there. [1] not the current MD. See, this is where the difference in preferences comes into play . I find the 09 stock and S Stock seats perfect, and seem to have become used to the 95 and 96 stock ones but they're still not very comfortable . I know in the previous 95 stock seats, if you tried sitting even close to upright, you'd have a bar underneath the seat dig into you. Then there is also springs getting damaged and sticking out on the 73 stock. The 09 and S Stocks seem to use foam padding instead of springs like on the older trains, which is why they probably feel less comfortable. The departed 67 stock and the 73 stock were/are really comfortable though sadly, the 73 stock are really feeling their age. It's a shame that the Bakerloo was never extended to Watford Junction as there were plans to use the 67 stock from the Victoria Line for the extension but nevertheless we got the Overground instead which is a very good compromise.
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Post by M1104 on Apr 24, 2015 22:16:17 GMT
The Northern Line ATO is pretty rubbish IMO. Whoever designed the software seems to think the accelerator is an "on/off" switch with nothing in between. Then there is the target speed which the train tries to maintain at the expense of comfort. As a result the train will apply power for a second, reach target speed, then exceed it ever so slightly, apply brake {repeat cycle continuously}. It makes for a jarring ride when it frequently alternates between accelerating and braking. Why can they not make it as smooth as the Victoria Line system? It seems to be an ongoing progress (possibly in stages) with the software issues as I've noticed some trains now accelerating smoothly and holding at near maximum speed from highgate to east finchley. Even when it's coming out the tunnel it's still thrashing on the up gradient, beforehand it was almost crawling. The majority of the line however still seems to be 'throttle stabbing'. It's ironic that the barnet branch was the first section to go ATO and perhaps is also where they are playing about with software adjustments for smoother rides. I think it's just a matter of time (how long I wonder) that the northern line will have acceleration as good as the central line, which have similar age and similar twists with the tunnels.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 24, 2015 23:07:58 GMT
The Northern Line ATO is pretty rubbish IMO. Whoever designed the software seems to think the accelerator is an "on/off" switch with nothing in between. Then there is the target speed which the train tries to maintain at the expense of comfort. As a result the train will apply power for a second, reach target speed, then exceed it ever so slightly, apply brake {repeat cycle continuously}. It makes for a jarring ride when it frequently alternates between accelerating and braking. Why can they not make it as smooth as the Victoria Line system? It seems to be an ongoing progress (possibly in stages) with the software issues as I've noticed some trains now accelerating smoothly and holding at near maximum speed from highgate to east finchley. Even when it's coming out the tunnel it's still thrashing on the up gradient, beforehand it was almost crawling. The majority of the line however still seems to be 'throttle stabbing'. It's ironic that the barnet branch was the first section to go ATO and perhaps is also where they are playing about with software adjustments for smoother rides. I think it's just a matter of time (how long I wonder) that the northern line will have acceleration as good as the central line, which have similar age and similar twists with the tunnels. I think it's correct that there is a fine tuning process going on to "smooth" the way the ATO system manages the movement of trains. There have certainly been questions to the Mayor about the jerkiness of the Seltrac system on the Northern so it's an issue with a "profile". One other possibility is whether there are or have been any track related issues requiring temporary speed restrictions. IIRC there were engineering works recently on the Barnet Branch to do something to the tracks. I only remember because it seemed unusual in the context of the signalling works being complete. I haven't travelled extensively on the Northern recently so haven't experienced any real jerkiness. I have been surprised at the improved frequency at weekends on the CX branch.
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Post by rmz19 on Apr 25, 2015 1:47:06 GMT
The Northern/Jubilee line's ATO is nowhere near as smooth as the Victoria/Central line's one, I enjoy being on the Victoria Line because of its smoothness. The ATO on the Jubilee and Northern lines need to be more refined to provide a constant and smooth pace. Regarding speed the Jubilee Line hits max speed quite often like the Victoria Line, the Central Line tends to hit max speed overground more often than underground. The Northern Line has its sections, such as along the High Barnet Branch and underground between Oval - Kennington southbound.
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Post by M1104 on Apr 25, 2015 8:29:09 GMT
The Northern/Jubilee line's ATO is nowhere near as smooth as the Victoria/Central line's one, I enjoy being on the Victoria Line because of its smoothness. The ATO on the Jubilee and Northern lines need to be more refined to provide a constant and smooth pace. Regarding speed the Jubilee Line hits max speed quite often like the Victoria Line, the Central Line tends to hit max speed overground more often than underground. The Northern Line has its sections, such as along the High Barnet Branch and underground between Oval - Kennington southbound. The Victoria line has the advantage of having the ATO experience since the late 1960s/early 1970s, believed to be the first line in the world to have the feature. It also has straighter tunnels througout where the train can utilise maximum speed more often. I believe its routing from Stockwell to Vauxhall takes it quite a way towards Oval before the slow curve into the Vauxhall direction. I imagined the northern line extension will do something similar between Kennington and Wandsworth Road...even straighter than between Waterloo and Kennington.
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Post by allentc on Apr 25, 2015 9:39:59 GMT
Many years ago I visited the mock up of the Victoria Line stock when it was at Euston, out near the bus station. I commented then, to the Line General Manager, that the seats were awful - too narrow for a fat git like me and very uncomfortable compared to the sprung seating in 67 stock. I was told that a certain Managing Director [1] had sat in the Vic Line seats and declared them satisfactory. Lol, they should have ripped a seat out and mounted it behind his office desk. After a short period of time I have no doubt it would have been sent back for a redesign! I distinctly recall reading in one of the trade publications several years ago that a bus company manager did just that. I can't for the life of me remember who, but when ordering seats for the latest build, he had a variety mounted and placed behind his office desk. He sat on them for many hours and came to a conclusion as to which would be the most comfortable for his passengers. Top marks for effort! Hopefully they will be able to program out the rapid alternation between acceleration/braking and introduce gradual acceleration removing the binary effect. I have noticed it is not so jerky as before but it is still a world away from the smoothness of the Victoria Line. Edit: Someone has already raised four good questions with the mayor (page 27): www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s45523/Priority%20List%20of%20Questiions.pdfI shall keep an eye for the response when it is made: questions.london.gov.uk/QuestionSearch/searchclient/
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Post by daveb0789 on Apr 26, 2015 7:20:29 GMT
Off topic slightly. The Victoria line trains are meant to have a mean acceleration of 1.3 m/s per second. But they don't feel that quick especially compared to the northern line. Has anyone noticed this ?
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Post by M1104 on Apr 26, 2015 8:05:36 GMT
Off topic slightly. The Victoria line trains are meant to have a mean acceleration of 1.3 m/s per second. But they don't feel that quick especially compared to the northern line. Has anyone noticed this ? Have noticed that also when changing over at Stockwell. Also one northern line train recently had a bit of an abrupt pullaway from Tooting Broadway's northbound platform, causing one passenger to almost fall on top of another.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2015 8:15:32 GMT
Off topic slightly. The Victoria line trains are meant to have a mean acceleration of 1.3 m/s per second. But they don't feel that quick especially compared to the northern line. Has anyone noticed this ? They may well have the capability but it's possible the current timetable doesn't require it to be exploited. Not a lot of point of travelling at rocket like speeds only to have to jam the brakes on 1 minute later. You'll just throw people all over the place. Last time I used the Vic I noticed the track quality between SS and F Park s/b was diabolical - the train was bouncing all over the place. It's the same with different trains so it's definitely the track not a unit with "flats". Shows the track is getting a bit of a hammering with the more intensive service levels.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 26, 2015 11:57:04 GMT
Off topic slightly. The Victoria line trains are meant to have a mean acceleration of 1.3 m/s per second. But they don't feel that quick especially compared to the northern line. Has anyone noticed this ? I'm confused because anytime I get a Victoria Line, they accelerate like madmen and then continue flying through the tunnels like madmen.
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 27, 2015 22:20:23 GMT
Off topic slightly. The Victoria line trains are meant to have a mean acceleration of 1.3 m/s per second. But they don't feel that quick especially compared to the northern line. Has anyone noticed this ? They may well have the capability but it's possible the current timetable doesn't require it to be exploited. Not a lot of point of travelling at rocket like speeds only to have to jam the brakes on 1 minute later. You'll just throw people all over the place. Last time I used the Vic I noticed the track quality between SS and F Park s/b was diabolical - the train was bouncing all over the place. It's the same with different trains so it's definitely the track not a unit with "flats". Shows the track is getting a bit of a hammering with the more intensive service levels. You also find the difference in track quality on different parts of the Jubilee Line. The whole 1990s JLE section with continuous welded rail is very smooth, but as soon as you reach the junction with the 1970s section at Green Park you hit the old jointed rail and you get bounced all over the place. Maybe the track in the section you mentioned is just old and needs replacing?
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Post by snoggle on Apr 27, 2015 22:34:38 GMT
They may well have the capability but it's possible the current timetable doesn't require it to be exploited. Not a lot of point of travelling at rocket like speeds only to have to jam the brakes on 1 minute later. You'll just throw people all over the place. Last time I used the Vic I noticed the track quality between SS and F Park s/b was diabolical - the train was bouncing all over the place. It's the same with different trains so it's definitely the track not a unit with "flats". Shows the track is getting a bit of a hammering with the more intensive service levels. You also find the difference in track quality on different parts of the Jubilee Line. The whole 1990s JLE section with continuous welded rail is very smooth, but as soon as you reach the junction with the 1970s section at Green Park you hit the old jointed rail and you get bounced all over the place. Maybe the track in the section you mentioned is just old and needs replacing? All track on the Victoria Line was replaced as part of the upgrade project. It's why we had early finishes 5 nights a week for two years before the new trains could be deployed. Generally the Vic Line track is well looked after because a few years ago they didn't look after it and the service was a complete and utter shambles for months. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Given that it's normally pretty smooth I was shocked that the ride was as rough as it was.
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