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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 17, 2016 12:07:44 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Aug 17, 2016 13:39:50 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Aug 17, 2016 15:50:59 GMT
Updated timetable panel for the 123 with weekend night timings has materialised at my local stop. No change to the stop number "tiles" yet.
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 17, 2016 18:51:26 GMT
It's very misleading for the article to say "these routes will operate 24 hours a day for the first time". Especially as half of these routes run all night on New Year's Eve. Saying that, I assume all of these routes will get an automatic running on NYE considering all lines* on the Tube will run through the night into the New Year. *Waterloo & City line not counted. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 18, 2016 15:57:05 GMT
It's very misleading for the article to say "these routes will operate 24 hours a day for the first time". Especially as half of these routes run all night on New Year's Eve. Saying that, I assume all of these routes will get an automatic running on NYE considering all lines* on the Tube will run through the night into the New Year. Yes I was musing as to what NYE bus provision will be like this year and how the amended night tube related bus services will come into play. I wonder if it means TfL will have a little more money to splash on NYE extras or whether fewer extras will be provided given the broader base on the night bus network. As a complete side issue I wonder if this year's Notting Hill Carnival's 436X with Citaros will be the very last time it runs? No Citaros next year and no 436 north of Vauxhall either. |
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Post by 700101 on Aug 18, 2016 19:35:56 GMT
It's very misleading for the article to say "these routes will operate 24 hours a day for the first time". Especially as half of these routes run all night on New Year's Eve. Saying that, I assume all of these routes will get an automatic running on NYE considering all lines* on the Tube will run through the night into the New Year. Yes I was musing as to what NYE bus provision will be like this year and how the amended night tube related bus services will come into play. I wonder if it means TfL will have a little more money to splash on NYE extras or whether fewer extras will be provided given the broader base on the night bus network. As a complete side issue I wonder if this year's Notting Hill Carnival's 436X with Citaros will be the very last time it runs? No Citaros next year and no 436 north of Vauxhall either. The 436X is popular I gather it will probably use Double Deckers or may use the 507/521 new vehicles if permitted 😁 |
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 18, 2016 20:57:35 GMT
It's very misleading for the article to say "these routes will operate 24 hours a day for the first time". Especially as half of these routes run all night on New Year's Eve. Saying that, I assume all of these routes will get an automatic running on NYE considering all lines* on the Tube will run through the night into the New Year. Yes I was musing as to what NYE bus provision will be like this year and how the amended night tube related bus services will come into play. I wonder if it means TfL will have a little more money to splash on NYE extras or whether fewer extras will be provided given the broader base on the night bus network. As a complete side issue I wonder if this year's Notting Hill Carnival's 436X with Citaros will be the very last time it runs? No Citaros next year and no 436 north of Vauxhall either. I get the angle you are coming at with regards to funding; a high proportion of the new night routes introduced had NYE schedules so contracts should have that element factored in when tendering; thus allowing TfL a bigger budget to potentially select other routes. It remains to be seen if that'll occur however, free traveling as a result of sponsoring has come into financial uncertainties in recent years so if status quo (i.e. the same amount of routes selected as in previous year) is maintained then it'll be a simple & easy cost saving achieved by TfL. If the 436X does end up being axed, then I assume the same over-zealous treatment the 36 is getting circa the Battersea Park changes, would probably apply and the 36X may end up getting an enhanced service. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 19, 2016 23:31:30 GMT
And as the whole London centric media makes itself sick with excitement about the start of the Night Tube - the Guardian are allegedly at Walthamstow Central for the "first" Night Tube (poor darlings) - we move into the utterly ridiculous world of my nearest stretch of bus road having a higher frequency of buses on Fri and Sat nights than it has during M-F peak hours. I'm struggling to think of anywhere else in London where such utterly lunacy pertains. M-F peak - 5.5 buses per hour Fri/Sat nights - 7 buses per hour You couldn't make this nonsense up.   |
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 20, 2016 3:17:03 GMT
And as the whole London centric media makes itself sick with excitement about the start of the Night Tube - the Guardian are allegedly at Walthamstow Central for the "first" Night Tube (poor darlings) - we move into the utterly ridiculous world of my nearest stretch of bus road having a higher frequency of buses on Fri and Sat nights than it has during M-F peak hours. I'm struggling to think of anywhere else in London where such utterly lunacy pertains. M-F peak - 5.5 buses per hour Fri/Sat nights - 7 buses per hour You couldn't make this nonsense up. East India Dock Road between Canning Town and Poplar All Saints has been like that for a while now. 9 buses in the peak in the form of the 115 and a weekend PVR of 12 courtesy of routes N15, N550 & N551. |
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Post by jrussa on Aug 20, 2016 5:56:06 GMT
And as the whole London centric media makes itself sick with excitement about the start of the Night Tube - the Guardian are allegedly at Walthamstow Central for the "first" Night Tube (poor darlings) - we move into the utterly ridiculous world of my nearest stretch of bus road having a higher frequency of buses on Fri and Sat nights than it has during M-F peak hours. I'm struggling to think of anywhere else in London where such utterly lunacy pertains. M-F peak - 5.5 buses per hour Fri/Sat nights - 7 buses per hour You couldn't make this nonsense up. What you have to bear in mind is that the frequency increase at night may/is not primarily for your road or area. For example if Route A has a frequency of 15mins and Route B has a frequency of 20mins, the area/road it shares for part of the route will have 7 bph. I assume the bus routes serve other destinations and it just so happens that a certain aspect of the routing involves the routes travelling alongside one another for a period of time before going onto their individualised/ unique routing's serving different areas. Their individual PVR's may not be justified for the road/arwa they share, but the different connections they do not share and/or passenger flow throughout the route may justify it. |
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Post by snowman on Aug 20, 2016 7:30:05 GMT
And as the whole London centric media makes itself sick with excitement about the start of the Night Tube - the Guardian are allegedly at Walthamstow Central for the "first" Night Tube (poor darlings) - we move into the utterly ridiculous world of my nearest stretch of bus road having a higher frequency of buses on Fri and Sat nights than it has during M-F peak hours. I'm struggling to think of anywhere else in London where such utterly lunacy pertains. M-F peak - 5.5 buses per hour Fri/Sat nights - 7 buses per hour You couldn't make this nonsense up. What you have to bear in mind is that the frequency increase at night may/is not primarily for your road or area. For example if Route A has a frequency of 15mins and Route B has a frequency of 20mins, the area/road it shares for part of the route will have 7 bph. I assume the bus routes serve other destinations and it just so happens that a certain aspect of the routing involves the routes travelling alongside one another for a period of time before going onto their individualised/ unique routing's serving different areas. Their individual PVR's may not be justified for the road/arwa they share, but the different connections they do not share and/or passenger flow throughout the route may justify it. Whilst I get your point about some roads having multiple routes, it doesn't answer snoggles comment that the frequencies are higher at night than M-F peaks. Normally more people travel at peak times which requires more capacity. Having a higher frequency at night suggests someone in TfL away with the fairies land expects more to travel in middle of night than rush hour. I'm using the term peak in its conventional weekday rush hour sense, if the busiest PVR (and P stands for peak) isn't at peak times then nothing makes sence including use of term PVR. I wonder how much fresh air these night services are carrying, wouldn't surprise me if frequencies get thinned drastically, or routes shortened if passengers aren't really using them. Don't forget at the moment standard fares apply, in many other cities night bus fares are charged at 1.5 the day fare. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 20, 2016 10:04:03 GMT
What you have to bear in mind is that the frequency increase at night may/is not primarily for your road or area. For example if Route A has a frequency of 15mins and Route B has a frequency of 20mins, the area/road it shares for part of the route will have 7 bph. I assume the bus routes serve other destinations and it just so happens that a certain aspect of the routing involves the routes travelling alongside one another for a period of time before going onto their individualised/ unique routing's serving different areas. Their individual PVR's may not be justified for the road/arwa they share, but the different connections they do not share and/or passenger flow throughout the route may justify it. Whilst I get your point about some roads having multiple routes, it doesn't answer snoggles comment that the frequencies are higher at night than M-F peaks. Normally more people travel at peak times which requires more capacity. Having a higher frequency at night suggests someone in TfL away with the fairies land expects more to travel in middle of night than rush hour. I'm using the term peak in its conventional weekday rush hour sense, if the busiest PVR (and P stands for peak) isn't at peak times then nothing makes sence including use of term PVR. I wonder how much fresh air these night services are carrying, wouldn't surprise me if frequencies get thinned drastically, or routes shortened if passengers aren't really using them. Don't forget at the moment standard fares apply, in many other cities night bus fares are charged at 1.5 the day fare. Thank you. I don't have any quibble with Jamaicarussa's logic in setting out the explanation. Of course you get places where routes overlap for all sorts of reasons. Clearly we are overprovided for at weekends because the N73's inner section is tremendously busy and relatively far away from any tube service. I can absolutely see why TfL run the N73 on to cover the top bit of the Vic Line. However even if the weekend N73 is reduced to 4 tph (as planned) we'll still be in the nutty situation where we'll have 6 bph at night and 5.5 bph in the peaks [1]. I can assure you more people use the buses in the daytime than at night! I am prepared to give TfL a bit of time with the weekend night buses. Bizarrely the promotion of the night 123 only mentions the link with the Vic Line even though it provides a potentially valuable link with the Central Line at Gants Hill. Also means Ilford - Gants Hill goes up to 6 bph on weekend nights from the usual 2 bph (night 128). You may well be right that things are cut back - I fully expected TfL to turn half the N73s at Tottenham to just give us 4 tph at weekends from Tottenham through to Bell Corner. I also wonder if TfL might do a "U turn" about the N236 and put it back at weekends to give an easy link to Newington Green and Hackney from Finsbury Park. [1] theoretical frequency of course. The reality can be only 4 buses with waits of up to 20 mins not uncommon so no better than what we get at 0600 on a Sunday morning. |
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 20, 2016 11:06:32 GMT
What you have to bear in mind is that the frequency increase at night may/is not primarily for your road or area. For example if Route A has a frequency of 15mins and Route B has a frequency of 20mins, the area/road it shares for part of the route will have 7 bph. I assume the bus routes serve other destinations and it just so happens that a certain aspect of the routing involves the routes travelling alongside one another for a period of time before going onto their individualised/ unique routing's serving different areas. Their individual PVR's may not be justified for the road/arwa they share, but the different connections they do not share and/or passenger flow throughout the route may justify it. Whilst I get your point about some roads having multiple routes, it doesn't answer snoggles comment that the frequencies are higher at night than M-F peaks. Normally more people travel at peak times which requires more capacity. Having a higher frequency at night suggests someone in TfL away with the fairies land expects more to travel in middle of night than rush hour. I'm using the term peak in its conventional weekday rush hour sense, if the busiest PVR (and P stands for peak) isn't at peak times then nothing makes sence including use of term PVR. I wonder how much fresh air these night services are carrying, wouldn't surprise me if frequencies get thinned drastically, or routes shortened if passengers aren't really using them. Don't forget at the moment standard fares apply, in many other cities night bus fares are charged at 1.5 the day fare. Something happened on the 25 which last night which I've never seen before: ample seats available on a Friday night!  This was at Mile End; rode it up to Stratford and it's not the hoardes of people as during the day but the Night Tube is providing a steady stream of passengers to the bus station. Also noticed a heavy police presence. Route 145 is unfortunately the only bus I got any action from and was bewildered to see I was the only one on the bus at Leytonstone and no one else boarded until Ilford. A group of mates were waiting for the bus home and 1 of them spotted he could shave minutes from his journey home and hailed the 145 in time. It will take time for attitudes to change for people who want the night Tube to hop on the 145 and vice cersa but even then, they will board the bus and alight on a major corridor (Longbridge Road for N15, Ilford for 25) for other stations/connections because they don't fancy staying on the bus to Leytonstone for the Tube. Still, the acid test for the 145 will be Sunday mornings, more so between Dagenham and Martins Corner when first trains is closer to 7am so that bus will be their only option for travelling. |
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Post by snowman on Aug 20, 2016 14:31:15 GMT
Whilst I get your point about some roads having multiple routes, it doesn't answer snoggles comment that the frequencies are higher at night than M-F peaks. Normally more people travel at peak times which requires more capacity. Having a higher frequency at night suggests someone in TfL away with the fairies land expects more to travel in middle of night than rush hour. I'm using the term peak in its conventional weekday rush hour sense, if the busiest PVR (and P stands for peak) isn't at peak times then nothing makes sence including use of term PVR. I wonder how much fresh air these night services are carrying, wouldn't surprise me if frequencies get thinned drastically, or routes shortened if passengers aren't really using them. Don't forget at the moment standard fares apply, in many other cities night bus fares are charged at 1.5 the day fare. Something happened on the 25 which last night which I've never seen before: ample seats available on a Friday night! This was at Mile End; rode it up to Stratford and it's not the hoardes of people as during the day but the Night Tube is providing a steady stream of passengers to the bus station. Also noticed a heavy police presence. Route 145 is unfortunately the only bus I got any action from and was bewildered to see I was the only one on the bus at Leytonstone and no one else boarded until Ilford. A group of mates were waiting for the bus home and 1 of them spotted he could shave minutes from his journey home and hailed the 145 in time. It will take time for attitudes to change for people who want the night Tube to hop on the 145 and vice cersa but even then, they will board the bus and alight on a major corridor (Longbridge Road for N15, Ilford for 25) for other stations/connections because they don't fancy staying on the bus to Leytonstone for the Tube. Still, the acid test for the 145 will be Sunday mornings, more so between Dagenham and Martins Corner when first trains is closer to 7am so that bus will be their only option for travelling. Instant conclusion is 25 is now overbussed as it is now a parallel service, so that gives good excuse to decimate it once crossrail opens as it proves parallel services don't convey the longer distance traffic. 2nd conclusion that Stratford is seen as a crime hotspot if loads of police congregate there. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Aug 21, 2016 8:40:03 GMT
Whilst I get your point about some roads having multiple routes, it doesn't answer snoggles comment that the frequencies are higher at night than M-F peaks. Normally more people travel at peak times which requires more capacity. Having a higher frequency at night suggests someone in TfL away with the fairies land expects more to travel in middle of night than rush hour. I'm using the term peak in its conventional weekday rush hour sense, if the busiest PVR (and P stands for peak) isn't at peak times then nothing makes sence including use of term PVR. I wonder how much fresh air these night services are carrying, wouldn't surprise me if frequencies get thinned drastically, or routes shortened if passengers aren't really using them. Don't forget at the moment standard fares apply, in many other cities night bus fares are charged at 1.5 the day fare. Thank you. I don't have any quibble with Jamaicarussa's logic in setting out the explanation. Of course you get places where routes overlap for all sorts of reasons. Clearly we are overprovided for at weekends because the N73's inner section is tremendously busy and relatively far away from any tube service. I can absolutely see why TfL run the N73 on to cover the top bit of the Vic Line. However even if the weekend N73 is reduced to 4 tph (as planned) we'll still be in the nutty situation where we'll have 6 bph at night and 5.5 bph in the peaks [1]. I can assure you more people use the buses in the daytime than at night! I am prepared to give TfL a bit of time with the weekend night buses. Bizarrely the promotion of the night 123 only mentions the link with the Vic Line even though it provides a potentially valuable link with the Central Line at Gants Hill. Also means Ilford - Gants Hill goes up to 6 bph on weekend nights from the usual 2 bph (night 128). You may well be right that things are cut back - I fully expected TfL to turn half the N73s at Tottenham to just give us 4 tph at weekends from Tottenham through to Bell Corner. I also wonder if TfL might do a "U turn" about the N236 and put it back at weekends to give an easy link to Newington Green and Hackney from Finsbury Park. [1] theoretical frequency of course. The reality can be only 4 buses with waits of up to 20 mins not uncommon so no better than what we get at 0600 on a Sunday morning. I think the N73 will more likely get diverted via South Grove to Walthamstow Central, i.e. the 230, thean to be cut back to Tottenham Hale, especially considering the forecast 'demand'. More baffling for me is how the N73 serves Forest Road and Hoe Street at night, a useful connection, and during the day there is no such service. TfL should probably consult about rerouting the W11 and create this link... |
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This was at Mile End; rode it up to Stratford and it's not the hoardes of people as during the day but the Night Tube is providing a steady stream of passengers to the bus station. Also noticed a heavy police presence. 