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Post by 6HP502C on Sept 26, 2016 22:45:03 GMT
So I finished work at Walworth Bus Garage at 2am on Sunday morning and had to get to Lewisham. Thought I lucked out when I saw the N136 was due and hot footed it to the bus stop - only for a very packed bus to sail past. I caught up with the bus at Camberwell Green.
Apparently the N136 has been getting absolutely mullered from Vauxhall on weekend nights in the last few weeks. Plenty of boarders and a few left behinds at Peckham and Queens Road Peckham. Progress was much slower than it needed to be and by New Cross, the bus had been curtailed to Grove Park.
Reportedly the 36 punches the N136. Despite a common section of over 4 miles (Victoria to New Cross), the two are timed to run together southbound on weeknights which really ought not to be the case.
The bus finally quietened down at New Cross Gate. I am not looking forward to using the N136 again. Despite the walks at both ends I think I will aim for the N89 in future - the drivers don't mess around and it has some of those Topodyn Enviros that are nice to ride.
I digress - it seems that Vauxhall's night tube service may be proving attractive to some people trying to reach south east London, bearing in mind there's quite some catchment of North and Central London less than 20 minute's ride on the Vic. Perhaps one to watch.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 4:22:19 GMT
So I finished work at Walworth Bus Garage at 2am on Sunday morning and had to get to Lewisham. Thought I lucked out when I saw the N136 was due and hot footed it to the bus stop - only for a very packed bus to sail past. I caught up with the bus at Camberwell Green. Apparently the N136 has been getting absolutely mullered from Vauxhall on weekend nights in the last few weeks. Plenty of boarders and a few left behinds at Peckham and Queens Road Peckham. Progress was much slower than it needed to be and by New Cross, the bus had been curtailed to Grove Park. Reportedly the 36 punches the N136. Despite a common section of over 4 miles (Victoria to New Cross), the two are timed to run together southbound on weeknights which really ought not to be the case. The bus finally quietened down at New Cross Gate. I am not looking forward to using the N136 again. Despite the walks at both ends I think I will aim for the N89 in future - the drivers don't mess around and it has some of those Topodyn Enviros that are nice to ride. I digress - it seems that Vauxhall's night tube service may be proving attractive to some people trying to reach south east London, bearing in mind there's quite some catchment of North and Central London less than 20 minute's ride on the Vic. Perhaps one to watch. An excellent point. This is what I have also predicted for Hammersmith when Picc Line joins in. Stagecoach & Go Ahead schedulers' should ensure even running where possible. It would be nice if the 185 ran all night |
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Post by sid on Sept 27, 2016 8:51:33 GMT
So I finished work at Walworth Bus Garage at 2am on Sunday morning and had to get to Lewisham. Thought I lucked out when I saw the N136 was due and hot footed it to the bus stop - only for a very packed bus to sail past. I caught up with the bus at Camberwell Green. Apparently the N136 has been getting absolutely mullered from Vauxhall on weekend nights in the last few weeks. Plenty of boarders and a few left behinds at Peckham and Queens Road Peckham. Progress was much slower than it needed to be and by New Cross, the bus had been curtailed to Grove Park. Reportedly the 36 punches the N136. Despite a common section of over 4 miles (Victoria to New Cross), the two are timed to run together southbound on weeknights which really ought not to be the case. The bus finally quietened down at New Cross Gate. I am not looking forward to using the N136 again. Despite the walks at both ends I think I will aim for the N89 in future - the drivers don't mess around and it has some of those Topodyn Enviros that are nice to ride. I digress - it seems that Vauxhall's night tube service may be proving attractive to some people trying to reach south east London, bearing in mind there's quite some catchment of North and Central London less than 20 minute's ride on the Vic. Perhaps one to watch. I think most SE Londoners will go as far as they can by tube before resorting to the bus and although the situation at Vauxhall might ease a bit when the Jubilee Line night service commences some extra short workings on the 36 between NX and Vauxhall would help, it would at least give anybody for Grove Park and Chislehurst half a chance of getting on a N136. Planning bus services would have been so much easier if the night service had commenced on all lines simultaneously. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 27, 2016 10:10:49 GMT
Apparently the N136 has been getting absolutely mullered from Vauxhall on weekend nights in the last few weeks. Plenty of boarders and a few left behinds at Peckham and Queens Road Peckham. Progress was much slower than it needed to be and by New Cross, the bus had been curtailed to Grove Park. Reportedly the 36 punches the N136. Despite a common section of over 4 miles (Victoria to New Cross), the two are timed to run together southbound on weeknights which really ought not to be the case. Having looked at the Night bus timetables over many years, to create a little departure sheet for night bus photography purposes, I've long thought the timings of the 36 and N136 to / from Victoria were ridiculous. How you can specify an effective 6 bph capacity and then allow it to be scheduled to be 2 buses together 3 times an hour is beyond me. Obviously different operators are involved and they will be concerned about their performance risk but the timetables do the public no favours whatsoever if they can't board buses and it is effectively a waste of TfL's funds if one bus is chronically overloaded and one behind is nigh on empty. TfL should step in and sort that mess out between the two operators' timetables in their role as "network owner". The Vauxhall crowding situation you cite is obviously a recent one because of the Night Tube but perhaps no great shock given the huge increase in interchange through Vauxhall over many years. Given the relatively poor coverage of parts of the West End by the 36 / N136 it's perhaps no shock that people are using Vauxhall as a conveninent point. One wonder how many other places will be similarly affected - Walthamstow C, Seven Sisters, Shepherds Bush, Finsbury Park, Archway, Morden? I see Hammersmith has already been mentioned. |
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Post by enviroPB on Sept 27, 2016 11:03:33 GMT
Getting to Lewisham at night has always been a struggle for the different night routes that go there. At weekends N21, 47 & N199 will get rammed from London Bridge till Lewisham (though the additional capacity in the 24hr 47 ensures passengers don't get left behind before Canada Water, but only if both services run on time). I don't travel much from inner Southwark to get home at night but from what I've seen pre Night Tube; at Camberwell Green the N136 struggles while the 36 zips past and those like me who are humans and not sardines wait for the N89 and it's not much better! I now make my interchange point in SE London at New Cross due to the inability to either get on a bus to Lewisham or to get to Lewisham on time for the N108. Most likely than not I take the N53 to Woolwich as I've missed my only bus to east London but I digress. The Jubilee line would simply shift all the demand for Lewisham to Canada Water. The question to ask is if the 47/N199 combo would be enough (5bph combined) for what's argued will be extra demand* for travel that the Night Tube will bring; or will TfL bring extra resources to the routes or corridors that need it? One thing's for sure though; with very few Night Tube stations in south London, most night services in this part of town may actually see an enhancement in services as a whole compared to the rest of London where night buses that mirror the Tube will most likely see a decrease. *One of my mates from Manchester made it their mission to go on a night out in London just to use the Night Tube!  |
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Post by ibus246 on Sept 27, 2016 11:27:30 GMT
Getting to Lewisham at night has always been a struggle for the different night routes that go there. At weekends N21, 47 & N199 will get rammed from London Bridge till Lewisham (though the additional capacity in the 24hr 47 ensures passengers don't get left behind before Canada Water, but only if both services run on time). I don't travel much from inner Southwark to get home at night but from what I've seen pre Night Tube; at Camberwell Green the N136 struggles while the 36 zips past and those like me who are humans and not sardines wait for the N89 and it's not much better! I now make my interchange point in SE London at New Cross due to the inability to either get on a bus or to get to Lewisham on time for the N108. Most likely than not I take the N53 to Woolwich as I've missed my only bus to east London but I digress. The Jubilee line would simply shift all the demand for Lewisham to Canada Water. The question to ask is if the 47/N199 combo would be enough (5bph combined) for what's argued will be extra demand* for travel that the Night Tube will bring; or will TfL bring extra resources to the routes or corridors that need it? One thing's for sure though; with very few Night Tube stations in south London, most night services in this part of town may actually see an enhancement in services as a whole compared to the rest of London where night buses that mirror the Tube will most likely see a decrease. *One of my mates from Manchester made it their mission to go on a night out in London just to use the Night Tube to get home! Home to Manchester?! |
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Post by 6HP502C on Sept 27, 2016 12:52:45 GMT
Having looked at the Night bus timetables over many years, to create a little departure sheet for night bus photography purposes, I've long thought the timings of the 36 and N136 to / from Victoria were ridiculous. How you can specify an effective 6 bph capacity and then allow it to be scheduled to be 2 buses together 3 times an hour is beyond me. Obviously different operators are involved and they will be concerned about their performance risk but the timetables do the public no favours whatsoever if they can't board buses and it is effectively a waste of TfL's funds if one bus is chronically overloaded and one behind is nigh on empty. TfL should step in and sort that mess out between the two operators' timetables in their role as "network owner". The Vauxhall crowding situation you cite is obviously a recent one because of the Night Tube but perhaps no great shock given the huge increase in interchange through Vauxhall over many years. Given the relatively poor coverage of parts of the West End by the 36 / N136 it's perhaps no shock that people are using Vauxhall as a conveninent point. One wonder how many other places will be similarly affected - Walthamstow C, Seven Sisters, Shepherds Bush, Finsbury Park, Archway, Morden? I see Hammersmith has already been mentioned. Yes - we are in an age where the Citymapper savvy urbanites are easily able to identify the path of least resistance. I agree the tube to bus interchanges at the peripheries of the central area will increase, but to what extent are these new trips being generated? In this side of town, I think Brixton, Clapham Common and Tooting will also warrant further reviews. The 176 and N68 did get weekend frequency increases in recent months - partially due to growth of passenger numbers and partially the anticipation of the Night Tube at Waterloo. Think the N171 might need looking at in the near future too. As for the 36/N136, it's a daft situation - looking at London Bus Routes, it's plain as day (night?) to see how abysmally spaced out the services are. Weeknights 2bph (buses per hour) each - ok northbound, could be better but timed to run 0-1 minutes apart southbound! Very poor given the low frequency. Fri night/Sat morning, 3bph each - timed to run 0-1 minutes apart northbound, southbound ok most of the night. Sat night/Sun morning, 3bph each - timed to run 0-2 minutes apart northbound, southbound timed to run together during the busiest period until around 0230 then it evens out a bit. Sometimes interworking isn't practical or necessary. In this case, it is most certainly both. The N136 only has significant parallel sections with two routes - the 36 and the N199 between Lewisham and Downham. Neither the 36 nor the N199 hold any other parallels significant enough to warrant interworking. The 36 is never going to help the N136 with loads as they can't run more than 2 minutes early. This is bad news for people wanting to travel through New Cross, or the people of Mottingham and Chislehurst who get the raw end of the deal with 40+ minute gaps. Now that I know what's going on, I can opt to wait for the 36 then change at New Cross, but it's unnecessarily rubbish for people who don't want to play bus hopper at 2am. Definitely worth raising with TfL. |
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Post by enviroPB on Sept 27, 2016 13:17:39 GMT
Getting to Lewisham at night has always been a struggle for the different night routes that go there. At weekends N21, 47 & N199 will get rammed from London Bridge till Lewisham (though the additional capacity in the 24hr 47 ensures passengers don't get left behind before Canada Water, but only if both services run on time). I don't travel much from inner Southwark to get home at night but from what I've seen pre Night Tube; at Camberwell Green the N136 struggles while the 36 zips past and those like me who are humans and not sardines wait for the N89 and it's not much better! I now make my interchange point in SE London at New Cross due to the inability to either get on a bus or to get to Lewisham on time for the N108. Most likely than not I take the N53 to Woolwich as I've missed my only bus to east London but I digress. The Jubilee line would simply shift all the demand for Lewisham to Canada Water. The question to ask is if the 47/N199 combo would be enough (5bph combined) for what's argued will be extra demand* for travel that the Night Tube will bring; or will TfL bring extra resources to the routes or corridors that need it? One thing's for sure though; with very few Night Tube stations in south London, most night services in this part of town may actually see an enhancement in services as a whole compared to the rest of London where night buses that mirror the Tube will most likely see a decrease. *One of my mates from Manchester made it their mission to go on a night out in London just to use the Night Tube to get home! Home to Manchester?! No! Lool he had a place to stay in London. But from a place like Manchester where you're blessed with a night bus at weekends let alone the week, he was dying to see & use the 24hr Night Tube. Can't blame him!  |
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Post by 6HP502C on Sept 27, 2016 13:29:51 GMT
An excellent point. This is what I have also predicted for Hammersmith when Picc Line joins in. Stagecoach & Go Ahead schedulers' should ensure even running where possible. It would be nice if the 185 ran all night Agreed - might provide some relief for the N171 with interchanges available at Vauxhall and Oval. I will feed the 36/N136 situation back to TfL. Perhaps a clause could be put into the next spec for these routes requesting interworking on all days. Unfortunately it's a problem as people aren't just being inconvenienced by skewed average waits, but being crowded off the longer distance route. The 37 needs that third bus now - it's incredibly busy at weekends. People ride on it for long distances with Peckham being an objective in itself for nights out. Brixton is an attractive interchange point for people going to Herne Hill and Dulwich, whilst I believe it may also attract more people for Wandsworth and Putney at Clapham Common. Demand has not been helped by the downgrading of the southern end of the night 35 with shoestring schedules that need at least 15 extra minutes per cycle - copious curtailments at Camberwell Green in both directions and I'd be surprised if more than 80% of buses ever reach Shoreditch with all the London Bridge turns. Buses bunched like bananas with empty buses randomly sliding into service in the middle of the route. The under resourcing of the route makes it more entertaining to ride than the likes of the N155, but that's a matter for another thread! |
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Post by enviroPB on Sept 27, 2016 14:08:16 GMT
An excellent point. This is what I have also predicted for Hammersmith when Picc Line joins in. Stagecoach & Go Ahead schedulers' should ensure even running where possible. It would be nice if the 185 ran all night Agreed - might provide some relief for the N171 with interchanges available at Vauxhall and Oval. I will feed the 36/N136 situation back to TfL. Perhaps a clause could be put into the next spec for these routes requesting interworking on all days. Unfortunately it's a problem as people aren't just being inconvenienced by skewed average waits, but being crowded off the longer distance route. The 37 needs that third bus now - it's incredibly busy at weekends. People ride on it for long distances with Peckham being an objective in itself for nights out. Brixton is an attractive interchange point for people going to Herne Hill and Dulwich, whilst I believe it may also attract more people for Wandsworth and Putney at Clapham Common. Demand has not been helped by the downgrading of the southern end of the night 35 with shoestring schedules that need at least 15 extra minutes per cycle - copious curtailments at Camberwell Green in both directions and I'd be surprised if more than 80% of buses ever reach Shoreditch with all the London Bridge turns. Buses bunched like bananas with empty buses randomly sliding into service in the middle of the route. The under resourcing of the route makes it more entertaining to ride than the likes of the N155, but that's a matter for another thread! The 37 needed it when the 35 went down 1bph. I'd even argue it can do but 4bph up till 2am, then could possibly cope without with 20 minute headways thereafter. I've said it before 6HP502C , but no money should be saved by TfL reviewing night bus routes mirroring the Night Tube. It should use that money to reinvest into night routes that needed extra services for a long time; and for night routes that will fail to cope with this 'underestimate' use of the Night Tube TfL have plastered in their official documents. Services like the 69 & 277 which struggled to cope on weekend night now are faced with the Night Tube and that's only extra strain for both routes. 3bph is quite modest in my view. I'd like to see routes run like the N108 or the N13 having enhanced services until 2am or 3am respectively; establish a peak hour of night-time operation in the weekend schedule and allocate appropriate resources. That's it, simple; but I know it's easier said than done. And I covertly monitor the 35 on weekend nights. It's laughable that TfL launch a consultation stating more buses will be provided from Shoreditch to Brixton. Not only do buses not make it to Shoreditch for that agreed 8bph (ironically around 3 in every 8 buses are curtailed in my observations; the same level that N35 provided) but the buses that are curtailed short at London Bridge etc. are the ones destined for Clapham Junction. I bet the hipsters are not best pleased!  |
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Post by enviroPB on Oct 5, 2016 14:07:39 GMT
Tried to tick more Night Tube routes off my list but the N253 threw a spanner in the works with me trying to get to Finsbury Park at 2am. Eventually I got there via the 48, 276, N73, 341 & N279 (beating the very delayed N253!  ) but flipped a coin mentally going with the W3 to start going home. With 12 passengers boarding from the stand and 2 passengers at the first stop it looked promising. But without giving full running commentary; what I was astonished to see were passengers using the route as a proper night bus route. That is to say passengers board at specific points (Crouch End, Alexandra Park Road, Wood Green & Great Cambridge Road) and alighting follows that trend with very few passengers alighting outside main destinations. At this point I'd like to say that up at Ally Pally at night is wonderful, and for that the W3 stands out experience-wise. But with 34 passengers (a good chunk at Wood Green boarding), HVs on the route (well, 2/3 is good) & serving roads/areas with next to no night buses at all, the W3 makes a good weekend night bus. If you want to hear the rest of my journey home.... decided because I haven't done the W3 fully (don't you judge me!! ) that I'd get off at Northumberland Park and get the 341 to Tottenham High Street. Both the W3 and the 341 were timed to arrive together; and after a quick sprint, I caught the same driver & same DW as I got on at Newington Green on the way to Finsbury. Fastrack to a 26 minute wait for the 123; got on the bus which was 40 seconds early and sat next to the driver. He did not break the laws of physics but somehow departed Tottenham Hale bus station 4 minutes early! In front of the 123 at the bus station was an N73 which had passengers on the back row of stairs who looked as if they wanted the 123...however even with direct eye contact with the driver; they didn't use this golden opportunity to signal/motion to the driver to wait for them at the next stop. The N73 served Ferry Lane which the 123 didn't, with the passengers trying to get off in time to flag the 123 down. At that time I spoke to the driver saying he had done nothing wrong because those 2 passengers had a "golden opportunity" to do or say anything to you but they didn't. He was consoled but checking that he was running 4.5 minutes early, he waited at the next stop to wait for the N73 to pass. The LT was ahead at Blackhorse Road Station and 5 people alighted direct from that bus to the 123. Those 2 foolish passengers who could've inflicted a 30 min wait for other passengers; were themselves waiting for a 123 near Tottenham Hale!! Good I say; everyone knows that if you want to get a bus behind yours, you wait for a busy interchange stop or wait for the bus you're on to have as big a lead as possible to then alight.   |
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Post by 6HP502C on Oct 6, 2016 12:54:25 GMT
Glad to hear people are using the service. Try Ally Pally at night when the moon looks like a huge block of cheese!
The schedulers should take a leaf out of Go-Ahead's book in terms of night bus running times. Absolutely nobody likes having to be on a crawling bus in the middle of the night. Drivers don't like sitting around either. It's cost neutral to redistribute the running time into the recovery!
As for playing bus hopper, it's a risky game. You have no idea if the bus behind will stop where you choose to alight, plus there are a lot of variables to overcome if going down the road of getting the driver of the bus behind to make a stop for you! If I'm driving a low frequency night route I might look out for passengers doing that. If I'm driving the Tower Hill to Barking rail replacement and see people attempting to defect from the 25 in front, I will try to get away from that stop as quickly as safely possible.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Oct 9, 2016 21:04:27 GMT
Has anyone FOI'd the number of passenger on new weekend night bus routes like last time?
Very curious about 183 and especially the 114 use, Ruislip finally partially connected! Who on earth only had N7 go to Northolt only?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 9, 2016 22:39:15 GMT
Has anyone FOI'd the number of passenger on new weekend night bus routes like last time? Very curious about 183 and especially the 114 use, Ruislip finally partially connected! Who on earth only had N7 go to Northolt only?They've only been running for 2 nights and TfL's FOI department don't work weekends! FOI also takes a month or so if you've lucky so even if somone has asked don't expect to see any info via that channel for a while. TfL might release some info but their press releases seem to be being sabotaged by City Hall these days. TfL have barely put anything out of any pressing interest over the last month. I expect we may get something tomorrow about how many used the Jubilee Line over the weekend but past Night Tube releases never mentioned the buses. |
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Post by enviroPB on Oct 24, 2016 14:45:42 GMT
Decided to try out the Bexleyheath night Tube bus routes with the debut of the Jubilee line; heaven knows I wasn't going to before then! When I got to North Greenwich little after half 1 I noticed from the timetables that both routes were evenly spaced out (every 15 minutes from both services). Waited for the next bus, the 486 and had my mind set on yet another quiet night bus journey with 16 pax waiting for the bus until the stampede came...the bus was full after that dash & discharge from the Jublinee line. Passengers then began to indisrciminately alight from Charlton in small numbers; but as soon as the 486 turned onto Royal Artillery Road a masse enbark was had, but I shall save my views for a night 422 to the end. The night Tube has also unlocked passengers who wish 'to keep the party going' but distances & [taxi] costs don't always make that practical. I digress, as 8 passengers got off at Greenwich Heights to their appartments for a wee after party. After Welling I was the only person upstairs with the last 2 passengers alighting just before the town centre in Bexleyheath, and that was that.
Had a relatively short wait for the N132 to come and off we went with my keen eye on every bus in the opposite direction for a guage of usage. At Bexley Village saw a N132 and my theory of an even working to Bexleyheath works true as there were 12 passengers who were still on board (didn't/couldn't see the bottom deck but there were more downstairs) so positive signs in my eyes. There were hesitant passengers who came about no doubt due to the lack of advertising on TfL's part, but the highlight of my night travels was a couple in fancy dress walking with the bus crawling near the Avery Hill campus with the woman shouting to her boyfriend "See, I ******* knew it was running!!" I and the driver was accompanied by souls from Eltham High Street onwards, 8 in total including me. Not much to report from that direction of travel really.
One thing I did notice was 3 buses on the 486 and 4 on the 132; presumably due to the A2 routing which I did experience roadwaorks in on the way to North Greenwich. I do commend the even headways provided by both routes but I wonder if that's on TfL's part or Go Ahead's initiative. What's interesting from observing passenger behaviour is that with the Night Tube, passengers opt to use that service to then find familiar bus travel home. It's true when overhearing those passengers who alighted at Greenwich Heights when they said without the Night Tube + bus changes that they couldn't get home at night from central London. Very untrue with the N89 round the corner on Shooters Hill Road. Familiar buses to the Night Tube stations are also opted for; TfL made a good call with a 4bph N86 at weekends with those seats being filled to Stratford as well as buses leaving Stratford handsomely loaded. I did come across a hesitant group on the N15 after the Jubilee lined joined and they simply weren't sure of where the bus was headed; with one stating "I hope this goes to Canning Town otherwise we should've waited for the N86." I've also seen an increase in end-to-end journeys on Barking bound N238s with the horrid scenes of overcorowding gone. People oversleeping on the Jubilee line heading for the N15? Possibly so, they also koncked out on the N238 also!!
I still am not happy that the 422 wasn't selected for Night Tube status as I believe it would do well. But to see the trunk roads of SE London have night routes from a Tube station helps get people home quicker; and south of the river that is really greatly appreciated. I may have held hostile views of these routes before the Jubilee line went 24 hours but seeing it in tandem with the N132 & N486, have to say I'm impressed.
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) but flipped a coin mentally going with the W3 to start going home. With 12 passengers boarding from the stand and 2 passengers at the first stop it looked promising. But without giving full running commentary; what I was astonished to see were passengers using the route as a proper night bus route. That is to say passengers board at specific points (Crouch End, Alexandra Park Road, Wood Green & Great Cambridge Road) and alighting follows that trend with very few passengers alighting outside main destinations. At this point I'd like to say that up at Ally Pally at night is wonderful, and for that the W3 stands out experience-wise. But with 34 passengers (a good chunk at Wood Green boarding), HVs on the route (well, 2/3 is good) & serving roads/areas with next to no night buses at all, the W3 makes a good weekend night bus. 
