|
|
Post by snoggle on Jul 3, 2017 10:29:32 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? Short answer - no! Slightly more considered answer - it may well create demand for new night buses that connect NXG with the Overground stns to Crystal Palace / West Croydon. IIRC no night buses currently do that from the front door of NXG. I've already seen tweets saying "not a good idea unless the trains go to CP and West Croydon" so you can expect that criticism to take hold once people get familiar with the proposal. |
|
|
|
Post by SILENCED on Jul 3, 2017 10:49:02 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? Hardly seems worth it ... again little use to South London ... |
|
|
|
Post by enviroPB on Jul 3, 2017 11:35:21 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? The mayor's office said the new service would "help those working shifts in East London’s thriving hospitality and service sectors, and those who live in the outer London zones, by substantially reducing their journey times." Whaa? Apart from a dip into zone 1 at Shoreditch High Street, the Night Overground will not span past zone 2!! Gotta love the woffle that comes out of press releases!  Route N53 immedately comes to mind as one that will either benefit from the increase in passengers, or there will be a small dip for Woolwich passengers alighting at Canada Water oops, I meant Surrey Quays.  My guess is that it'll be the 53 that sees most of the action. New Cross is a nifty interchange for night buses so services there are pretty superflous in fact, so it's likely resources will be pulled away from that area if anything. Had the Night Overground even gone past Honor Oak Park or Forest Hill, that would be routes P4 and 185 prime weekend night bus candidates. But alas, it's sharing the track with other rail services/companies that presumably sees TfL rein in the unrelaibility for night passengers. Still, would be nice if NiOv was on the West Croydon branch, seeing as TfL are taking ageeees to put another night bus service through Norwood Junction!! One thing to note from the article is the Night Tube doing better than expected with 50% more passengers than forecasted. That's a bit of poppycock to me; I've always held the notion that TfL will go in the most pessimistic forecast during initial planning stages so when it goes better than expected, all the negative criticism can be combated with "well we're helping grow the night commerce and overall economy of the country." Those sleepless passengers living near Night Tube lines must be blundered with that quote, but at least Overground trains are quieter than Tube trains. Only silver lining to those living near LO tracks with this announcement today. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Jul 3, 2017 12:10:15 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? The mayor's office said the new service would "help those working shifts in East London’s thriving hospitality and service sectors, and those who live in the outer London zones, by substantially reducing their journey times." Whaa? Apart from a dip into zone 1 at Shoreditch High Street, the Night Overground will not span past zone 2!! Gotta love the woffle that comes out of press releases! Route N53 immedately comes to mind as one that will either benefit from the increase in passengers, or there will be a small dip for Woolwich passengers alighting at Canada Water oops, I meant Surrey Quays. My guess is that it'll be the 53 that sees most of the action. New Cross is a nifty interchange for night buses so services there are pretty superflous in fact, so it's likely resources will be pulled away from that area if anything. Had the Night Overground even gone past Honor Oak Park or Forest Hill, that would be routes P4 and 185 prime weekend night bus candidates. But alas, it's sharing the track with other rail services/companies that presumably sees TfL rein in the unrelaibility for night passengers. Still, would be nice if NiOv was on the West Croydon branch, seeing as TfL are taking ageeees to put another night bus service through Norwood Junction!! One thing to note from the article is the Night Tube doing better than expected with 50% more passengers than forecasted. That's a bit of poppycock to me; I've always held the notion that TfL will go in the most pessimistic forecast during initial planning stages so when it goes better than expected, all the negative criticism can be combated with "well we're helping grow the night commerce and overall economy of the country." Those sleepless passengers living near Night Tube lines must be blundered with that quote, but at least Overground trains are quieter than Tube trains. Only silver lining to those living near LO tracks with this announcement today. I suspect the Gibb Report on GTR has not helped the prospects of Overground trains running south of NXG. The Brighton main line is not in good shape and obviously works are going on to try to knock the assets in to shape prior to the Thameslink timetable starting. I think there is also some criticism of the Overground service having "priority" over other trains because of the very tight performance regime TfL have specified for their trains. I also can't see Mr Grayling wanting to "help" the Mayor and TfL given he effectively controls Network Rail and GTR. I note your remark about TfL forecasts. Believe me if you go in with estimates, forecasts or assumptions that are "overblown" or not supportable your authority paper gets nowhere near the approval meeting. It was bad enough in the 80s and 90s getting stuff through. Nowadays there are multiple checks, multi discipline reviews and scruntiny before you even draft a paper asking for money. I understand the cynicism but making sure something "passes" on pessimistic forecasts gives some level of confidence that you're doing the right thing with scarce public money. There are far too many examples of hopelessly optimistic forecasts being used and then usage not materialising and then you've sunk millions into a wasteful project or infrastructure. I know the reverse can happen - overly cautious spend or specification that's then overwhelmed with demand [1] but none of this is "obvious" when you're trying to construct a case with inevitably a partial view of "reality". [1] yes we can all quote the railway examples like reopened stations, line extensions or reopened routes like the Borders Railway. |
|
|
|
Post by stuckonthe486 on Jul 3, 2017 12:14:36 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? The mayor's office said the new service would "help those working shifts in East London’s thriving hospitality and service sectors, and those who live in the outer London zones, by substantially reducing their journey times." Whaa? Apart from a dip into zone 1 at Shoreditch High Street, the Night Overground will not span past zone 2!! Gotta love the woffle that comes out of press releases! Route N53 immedately comes to mind as one that will either benefit from the increase in passengers, or there will be a small dip for Woolwich passengers alighting at Canada Water oops, I meant Surrey Quays. My guess is that it'll be the 53 that sees most of the action. New Cross is a nifty interchange for night buses so services there are pretty superflous in fact, so it's likely resources will be pulled away from that area if anything. Had the Night Overground even gone past Honor Oak Park or Forest Hill, that would be routes P4 and 185 prime weekend night bus candidates. But alas, it's sharing the track with other rail services/companies that presumably sees TfL rein in the unrelaibility for night passengers. Still, would be nice if NiOv was on the West Croydon branch, seeing as TfL are taking ageeees to put another night bus service through Norwood Junction!! The 53 came to mind too, but the N171 could do with some help - and there's presently nothing between New Cross Gate and points south of Forest Hill, which now looks like a bigger gap in provision than it did. (Some form of N225 would be smashing, too, but that's just me dreaming.) But yes, whether the funding or imagination is present to do these things is another matter... |
|
|
|
Post by SILENCED on Jul 3, 2017 12:51:31 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? The mayor's office said the new service would "help those working shifts in East London’s thriving hospitality and service sectors, and those who live in the outer London zones, by substantially reducing their journey times." Whaa? Apart from a dip into zone 1 at Shoreditch High Street, the Night Overground will not span past zone 2!! Gotta love the woffle that comes out of press releases! Route N53 immedately comes to mind as one that will either benefit from the increase in passengers, or there will be a small dip for Woolwich passengers alighting at Canada Water oops, I meant Surrey Quays. My guess is that it'll be the 53 that sees most of the action. New Cross is a nifty interchange for night buses so services there are pretty superflous in fact, so it's likely resources will be pulled away from that area if anything. Had the Night Overground even gone past Honor Oak Park or Forest Hill, that would be routes P4 and 185 prime weekend night bus candidates. But alas, it's sharing the track with other rail services/companies that presumably sees TfL rein in the unrelaibility for night passengers. Still, would be nice if NiOv was on the West Croydon branch, seeing as TfL are taking ageeees to put another night bus service through Norwood Junction!! One thing to note from the article is the Night Tube doing better than expected with 50% more passengers than forecasted. That's a bit of poppycock to me; I've always held the notion that TfL will go in the most pessimistic forecast during initial planning stages so when it goes better than expected, all the negative criticism can be combated with "well we're helping grow the night commerce and overall economy of the country." Those sleepless passengers living near Night Tube lines must be blundered with that quote, but at least Overground trains are quieter than Tube trains. Only silver lining to those living near LO tracks with this announcement today. Anyone know who the Assembly member that covers Norwood Junction? Need to mail them to start asking awkward questions as to the areas lack of night time public transport. No night buses, no night tube and seemingly no night Overground! |
|
|
|
Post by redexpress on Jul 3, 2017 13:19:38 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? Sounds like Citymapper's proposed night bus service between Shoreditch and Highbury will be a bit pointless then! I suppose they could still run it as a trial for a few months (before the night Overground starts) if their idea is to expand into other areas (not necessarily London). |
|
|
|
Post by enviroPB on Jul 3, 2017 13:48:43 GMT
Just watched BBC London News' afternoon bulletin. Val Showcross was on saying that they're trying to help people switch from car traffic to other forms of transport. Ahhh, how could we miss the elephant in the room......TfL wants to finally sort out the messy congestion that is Shoreditch! As the traffic is becoming a regular, near nightly fixture, I'm guessing they are desperate to sort out reliability issues on buses in particular. Shoreditch is also a red route area with the Kingsland Road being a major artery to dual carriageways & motorways in north London. Local road users would've learnt to avoid the area completely but possibly coach companies for example are getting fed up that no actions were being taken to address this issue of congestion. snoggle I take your point on realistic forecasts, especially when there was no data beforehand on a project like the Night Tube so it's pretty much guesswork as to how well the service will be received by Joe & Jenny Public. Still, I thought I wouldn't in a million years that I'd use the Night Tube as I prefer riding a night bus straight to my front door. But if I'm at a bus stop that doesn't have my local night bus home, I suddenly remember I have a travelcard and end up riding 2 or 3 different night buses before I hop off for the Night Tube. Happy days really!  |
|
|
|
Post by redwave on Jul 3, 2017 15:45:15 GMT
There's a number of changes (reductions) to night bus frequencies proposed for the coming months, some might be quite significant.
|
|
|
|
Post by 6HP502C on Jul 3, 2017 16:36:05 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? Amazing news! Delighted as a humble south-east Londoner! I happen to think New Cross is very well served by night routes. Asides from the fanstically fast and frequent 53 and the N171, many of the buses have set down a fair amount of passengers by that point so there is a bit of spare capacity. A fair spread of the south east is covered by the 53, 321, N21, N89, N136 and N171 The N171 desperately needs a frequency increase and this could just make it worthwhile! It may also generate a bit more demand for London's fastest night route, the 321 - putting an end to those non stop New Cross to Lee runs! The N21 is too popular for its own good north of New Cross so hopefully this will provide some relief. Finally I think it might be time to restructure the N89 to run as a 4bph service with 2bph terminating at BX. The N89 and 321 are popular with longer distance riders. Hopefully the opportunity can also be taken to rationalise the 36 and N136, which parallel for over 4 miles yet are timed to run as a pair most of the time. As for a night bus mirroring the Overground south of New Cross, I don't see the point. I drive this route on rail replacement - and think very few people would use it. There are no demand generators south of New Cross. Brockley and Honor Oak are within bussing distance of NXG. Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Anerley are already served by buses from the central area - and loadings tend to be very light. Norwood Junction not being served is a problem but would be better served by extensions to the 176, 196 or N2. Croydon already has a rail service and the N68. The N109 needs fixing though - I have friends from Croydon who won't use it once we're done in the West End on weekends because of the dreadfully excessive running times. |
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Jul 3, 2017 17:03:31 GMT
The N36 is dropping to 2 bph at weekends on contract renewal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 17:06:58 GMT
*drumroll*.... and now the Night Overground! New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction from December, extending to Highbury from January. www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overgroundSuspect this will generate a lot more new demand - a lot of people deterred by fiddly journeys back from Dalston will suddenly fancy a night out. But will TfL stump up for the extra night buses at places like New Cross Gate? Hardly seems worth it ... again little use to South London ... Especially as the Crystal Palace and West Croydon trains are far busier than the New Cross Gate ones. I think there should be a new night bus linking New Cross to West Croydon via Crystal Palace |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Jul 3, 2017 17:13:25 GMT
Hardly seems worth it ... again little use to South London ... Especially as the Crystal Palace and West Croydon trains are far busier than the New Cross Gate ones. I think there should be a new night bus linking New Cross to West Croydon via Crystal Palace Cough - the CP and WC trains all serve New Cross Gate.  I fink you mean New Cross trains - as the station is run by South Eastern and they'd no doubt try to charge TfL £1m a week for opening the station at night we can rest assured that no trains will be serving New Cross station. |
|
|
|
Post by redexpress on Jul 3, 2017 17:51:59 GMT
Well one way to serve Norwood Junction at night would be to reintroduce the N75 (at least at weekends) and extend it from Lewisham to NXG. It didn't quite justify its existence last time round, but a connection with the night Overground might boost passenger numbers just enough to make it worthwhile. Not that it's likely to happen in the current financial climate of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by sid on Jul 3, 2017 18:12:34 GMT
Well one way to serve Norwood Junction at night would be to reintroduce the N75 (at least at weekends) and extend it from Lewisham to NXG. It didn't quite justify its existence last time round, but a connection with the night Overground might boost passenger numbers just enough to make it worthwhile. Not that it's likely to happen in the current financial climate of course. Or an extension of the N176? Isn't the lack of a LO night service south of NXG down to Network Rail? |
|
My guess is that it'll be the 53 that sees most of the action. New Cross is a nifty interchange for night buses so services there are pretty superflous in fact, so it's likely resources will be pulled away from that area if anything. Had the Night Overground even gone past Honor Oak Park or Forest Hill, that would be routes P4 and 185 prime weekend night bus candidates. But alas, it's sharing the track with other rail services/companies that presumably sees TfL rein in the unrelaibility for night passengers. Still, would be nice if NiOv was on the West Croydon branch, seeing as TfL are taking ageeees to put another night bus service through Norwood Junction!!
I fink you mean New Cross trains - as the station is run by South Eastern and they'd no doubt try to charge TfL £1m a week for opening the station at night we can rest assured that no trains will be serving New Cross station.