|
|
Post by snoggle on Sept 17, 2017 12:54:00 GMT
What concerns me is the cavalier axe swinging of popular night services. I was in New Cross, Marquis of Granby at 2am this morning waiting for a bus to Lewisham. The London Overground is certain to increase usage of these routes. I for one already see it as an attractive way to get to Lewisham from Shoreditch, or the West End with a nice change at Canada Water. I certainly won't be the only one - people who feel through buses to the suburbs of SE London are quite slow (or unreliable like the 35 trunk route) will be attracted to this new option. Where it comes to night routes in areas barren of Night Tube, cutting crowded services seems to be in favour at the moment. Are people just expected to not go out or work shifts that finish in the small hours   If TfL really wants to save money, there's a lot of fat to be trimmed from excessively resourced day bus routes which could run at the same frequency with less buses. Very good for operators of course but I'd happily submit observations for investigation if it meant saving crowded night bus services from being reduced "Thank you for your enquiry. Our computer model tells us that there is plenty of capacity on the Night Bus network. The Night Tube is a rip roaring success. Love and kisses TfL."     Was that sarcastic enough for you as a reply?  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 14:14:20 GMT
Meanwhile , First have introduced an N8 Slough - Term 5 via Egham & Stanies !
|
|
|
|
Post by sid on Sept 17, 2017 14:40:28 GMT
OK interesting comments. I can see the point about night routes being a theoretical marginal cost but I wonder if they are really priced like that. If they were so cheap then why on earth were routes that carried decent numbers binned to save money? Routes like the N58 and N75 carried more people than things like the N365 or N271 will ever do. My worry with the night bus cuts is that, on your logic, they're not saving very much money. Secondly what we are now seeing has not been consulted on at all. Thirdly we were promised a further Night Bus review by Val Shawcross that has not materialised. Finally if night routes are so cheap why are the radial route savings not being directed to open up some new suburban weekend routes to give better links / gap fill around the Night Tube or convert existing weekend only routes to nightly where there is a clear demand. Yes I know the "piggy bank is empty" but there is a breach of trust going on here which leaves a really horrible taste in my mouth. None of this was what we were promised by the Mayor and his cohorts. It has been publicly implied by TfL that one PVR costs around £256,750 per annum - source (page 1). I presume weekly mileage would be about average due to the length of the route. It is also regularly stated in the tender awards that night routes use vehicles from day routes - i.e the N68 using buses from the 45. Anything to do with costs is pure speculation on my part as it's a very complicated area - the Bus Tenders page demonstrates wild variances with per miles costs. But there are some clues there. If the 931 could be run for £7k a year, that obviously doesn't include the cost of the bus itself. Night buses run at times when buses are otherwise redundant so an ad-hoc frequency increase probably would be marginal. Again, total speculation on my part but a decrease may not work the same way - there's an argument to say that night buses are marginal, but it could also be argued that they aren't in the case of a reduction as the price may have included mileage operated as a whole, regardless of whether it's at peak times or otherwise. Even if the cost is marginal, running virtually empty buses doesn't make much sense. I genuinely have no idea why the 271 survives - it serves Central London and Old Street yet has worse passenger numbers than some of the suburban routes, plus is largely paralleled by the 43 which offers a superior service. Most of the week, the majority of 365 trips don't even attract double figures of boarders - but I guess it plugs a significant gap in the network. What concerns me is the cavalier axe swinging of popular night services. I was in New Cross, Marquis of Granby at 2am this morning waiting for a bus to Lewisham. The N89 is rumoured to be considered for a cut to 2bph at weekends. One vomit, which is pretty likely on these kind of routes and that's a 60 minute gap in the service. I took a photograph of the overrevving E51 last night - look at the steamed up windows and tell me it's carrying fresh air and wants cutting - picture. The N21 is also rumoured for a cut to 2bph on weekends - I got on one from New Cross as far as Lewisham and there was around 70 people on it, most of whom were travelling beyond Lewisham. The N136 on weekends was cut from 3bph to 2bph in May 2017. Before this went in, at 3bph there were already crowding issues along the Camberwell New Road corridor, because Night Tube boosted demand for the route out of Vauxhall. Sometimes I finish shifts at WL at 2am on Sunday mornings and every single time the crowding situation is stupid - I can't get on a bus outside the garage for overcrowding so have to walk to Camberwell Green on the off chance there will be space, along with the 20 or so other people that are usually also waiting there. For people further up the corridor, tough luck. The London Overground is certain to increase usage of these routes. I for one already see it as an attractive way to get to Lewisham from Shoreditch, or the West End with a nice change at Canada Water. I certainly won't be the only one - people who feel through buses to the suburbs of SE London are quite slow (or unreliable like the 35 trunk route) will be attracted to this new option. Where it comes to night routes in areas barren of Night Tube, cutting crowded services seems to be in favour at the moment. Are people just expected to not go out or work shifts that finish in the small hours I was out on the town on Friday night and found my way to Whitehall. There are some amazing things happening on the network - the 53 is one of them. High speed, reliable, frequent, direct, well used trunk service which offers very decent connections. I haven't heard anything about this one being cut - yet. I was on one last night which seriously impressed with its handling of the Old Kent Road - left a crowded 453 for dust at Bricklayers Arms and was moving significantly faster than the traffic in the outside lane. I don't care much for the MMCs from an enthusiast perspective but the NRM hasn't a hope in hell of keeping up with those things. The NRMs push up the cost of operation of night routes with their painfully slow doors hampering running times. The 53 had opened up a 5 minute gap from that 453 by Marquis of Granby. The 35 fulfils a similar role from Shoreditch to Camberwell - frequent trunk service offering lots of links - we need to see more of this! If TfL really wants to save money, there's a lot of fat to be trimmed from excessively resourced day bus routes which could run at the same frequency with less buses. Very good for operators of course but I'd happily submit observations for investigation if it meant saving crowded night bus services from being reduced Interesting, I've certainly seen no shortage of demand for buses going south from New Cross on a Fri/Sat night and that will surely only increase when the LO night service starts. Shouldn't the 36 be extended to Lewisham as well as getting a frequency increase at least south of Vauxhall? Radical idea perhaps but what about withdrawing the N89 between Trafalgar Square and NX on a Fri/Sat night (the unfamiliar number seems to put people off using it) and use the buses saved to double the frequency between NX and Erith? I would also suggest an N172 from New Cross to Brockley Rise and then onto Forest Hill, 176 route to Penge and via the 75 route to Croydon. A sort of RRS for the LO south of NXG. |
|
|
|
Post by Hassaan on Sept 17, 2017 15:07:16 GMT
OK interesting comments. I can see the point about night routes being a theoretical marginal cost but I wonder if they are really priced like that. If they were so cheap then why on earth were routes that carried decent numbers binned to save money? Routes like the N58 and N75 carried more people than things like the N365 or N271 will ever do. My worry with the night bus cuts is that, on your logic, they're not saving very much money. Secondly what we are now seeing has not been consulted on at all. Thirdly we were promised a further Night Bus review by Val Shawcross that has not materialised. Finally if night routes are so cheap why are the radial route savings not being directed to open up some new suburban weekend routes to give better links / gap fill around the Night Tube or convert existing weekend only routes to nightly where there is a clear demand. Yes I know the "piggy bank is empty" but there is a breach of trust going on here which leaves a really horrible taste in my mouth. None of this was what we were promised by the Mayor and his cohorts. It has been publicly implied by TfL that one PVR costs around £256,750 per annum - source (page 1). I presume weekly mileage would be about average due to the length of the route. It is also regularly stated in the tender awards that night routes use vehicles from day routes - i.e the N68 using buses from the 45. Anything to do with costs is pure speculation on my part as it's a very complicated area - the Bus Tenders page demonstrates wild variances with per miles costs. But there are some clues there. If the 931 could be run for £7k a year, that obviously doesn't include the cost of the bus itself. Night buses run at times when buses are otherwise redundant so an ad-hoc frequency increase probably would be marginal. Again, total speculation on my part but a decrease may not work the same way - there's an argument to say that night buses are marginal, but it could also be argued that they aren't in the case of a reduction as the price may have included mileage operated as a whole, regardless of whether it's at peak times or otherwise. Even if the cost is marginal, running virtually empty buses doesn't make much sense. I genuinely have no idea why the 271 survives - it serves Central London and Old Street yet has worse passenger numbers than some of the suburban routes, plus is largely paralleled by the 43 which offers a superior service. Most of the week, the majority of 365 trips don't even attract double figures of boarders - but I guess it plugs a significant gap in the network. What concerns me is the cavalier axe swinging of popular night services. I was in New Cross, Marquis of Granby at 2am this morning waiting for a bus to Lewisham. The N89 is rumoured to be considered for a cut to 2bph at weekends. One vomit, which is pretty likely on these kind of routes and that's a 60 minute gap in the service. I took a photograph of the overrevving E51 last night - look at the steamed up windows and tell me it's carrying fresh air and wants cutting - picture. The N21 is also rumoured for a cut to 2bph on weekends - I got on one from New Cross as far as Lewisham and there was around 70 people on it, most of whom were travelling beyond Lewisham. The N136 on weekends was cut from 3bph to 2bph in May 2017. Before this went in, at 3bph there were already crowding issues along the Camberwell New Road corridor, because Night Tube boosted demand for the route out of Vauxhall. Sometimes I finish shifts at WL at 2am on Sunday mornings and every single time the crowding situation is stupid - I can't get on a bus outside the garage for overcrowding so have to walk to Camberwell Green on the off chance there will be space, along with the 20 or so other people that are usually also waiting there. For people further up the corridor, tough luck. The London Overground is certain to increase usage of these routes. I for one already see it as an attractive way to get to Lewisham from Shoreditch, or the West End with a nice change at Canada Water. I certainly won't be the only one - people who feel through buses to the suburbs of SE London are quite slow (or unreliable like the 35 trunk route) will be attracted to this new option. Where it comes to night routes in areas barren of Night Tube, cutting crowded services seems to be in favour at the moment. Are people just expected to not go out or work shifts that finish in the small hours I was out on the town on Friday night and found my way to Whitehall. There are some amazing things happening on the network - the 53 is one of them. High speed, reliable, frequent, direct, well used trunk service which offers very decent connections. I haven't heard anything about this one being cut - yet. I was on one last night which seriously impressed with its handling of the Old Kent Road - left a crowded 453 for dust at Bricklayers Arms and was moving significantly faster than the traffic in the outside lane. I don't care much for the MMCs from an enthusiast perspective but the NRM hasn't a hope in hell of keeping up with those things. The NRMs push up the cost of operation of night routes with their painfully slow doors hampering running times. The 53 had opened up a 5 minute gap from that 453 by Marquis of Granby. The 35 fulfils a similar role from Shoreditch to Camberwell - frequent trunk service offering lots of links - we need to see more of this! If TfL really wants to save money, there's a lot of fat to be trimmed from excessively resourced day bus routes which could run at the same frequency with less buses. Very good for operators of course but I'd happily submit observations for investigation if it meant saving crowded night bus services from being reduced There really are some weird frequencies and first/last bus times around. Last week I discovered that the E8 runs every 10 minutes in the evenings every day until the last bus!  I really don't understand how there could be a demand for that level of service via Boston Manor and through West Ealing, let alone down London Road which has the 235, 237, and remember the eastbound N9 starts by 2300. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Sept 17, 2017 17:02:06 GMT
There really are some weird frequencies and first/last bus times around. Last week I discovered that the E8 runs every 10 minutes in the evenings every day until the last bus! I really don't understand how there could be a demand for that level of service via Boston Manor and through West Ealing, let alone down London Road which has the 235, 237, and remember the eastbound N9 starts by 2300. It would be nice to believe those frequencies and start / end times reflected need but in many cases I suspect it is a mix of history and operational convenience. The tender cycle has taken different views about service levels depending on the generosity of funding. Once established TfL is pretty reluctant to take out the knife to trim start or end times or evening frequencies. I agree the E8 looks ridiculously over generous unless there is a lot of evening demand between Ealing Bdwy and Boston Manor / Brentford. Ealing to Hanwell is not exactly underserved! There are obviously some dangers for TfL in taking the knife to some evening frequencies. Given London has long peak periods and still has some level of evening / night activity it could be ruinous to TfL to make the "last leg" home for many people inviable as they may switch travel modes permanently if all of a sudden the bus home disappears. Clearly there are justifiable differences in service levels given different housing densities and wealth. You'll never justify the same service levels that Camberwell gets in Orpington, Barnet or Purley. Nonetheless there is probably plenty of scope for some levelling up or down on many routes with a frequency taper late at night provided that connections to last trains / tubes / DLR / trams were maintained at recognised interchanges. |
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Sept 18, 2017 11:29:47 GMT
Radical idea perhaps but what about withdrawing the N89 between Trafalgar Square and NX on a Fri/Sat night (the unfamiliar number seems to put people off using it) and use the buses saved to double the frequency between NX and Erith?. N89 is my local night bus, but I'm afraid the Lewisham - Erith demand is generally very weak judging by my observations. My personal preference would be to extend the night 486 to Erith, have the night 486 run on all nights, extend the night 36 to Lewisham via current N89 with a small Fri/Sat frequency increase, and a night service introduced to the 45. N89 of course withdrawn as a result. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Sept 18, 2017 13:20:50 GMT
Radical idea perhaps but what about withdrawing the N89 between Trafalgar Square and NX on a Fri/Sat night (the unfamiliar number seems to put people off using it) and use the buses saved to double the frequency between NX and Erith?. N89 is my local night bus, but I'm afraid the Lewisham - Erith demand is generally very weak judging by my observations. My personal preference would be to extend the night 486 to Erith, have the night 486 run on all nights, extend the night 36 to Lewisham via current N89 with a small Fri/Sat frequency increase, and a night service introduced to the 45. N89 of course withdrawn as a result. I'm not sure I see the demand for a 24 hour 45 unfortunately - unlike the 35, the only major night spot on the route is Brixton whilst pretty much the entire route is already covered by night routes. |
|
|
|
Post by ian on Sept 18, 2017 14:35:48 GMT
As far as the 'tube replacement' route N5 goes, which i have used pretty frequently over many years, I would personally rather have seen the Sun-Thurs frequencies kept unaltered and the Fr-Sat service abolished if necessary. A x30 frequency if you live in Outer London means it is going to be Uber instead for those odd weeknight journeys alas.
|
|
|
|
Post by sid on Sept 18, 2017 14:36:51 GMT
Radical idea perhaps but what about withdrawing the N89 between Trafalgar Square and NX on a Fri/Sat night (the unfamiliar number seems to put people off using it) and use the buses saved to double the frequency between NX and Erith?. N89 is my local night bus, but I'm afraid the Lewisham - Erith demand is generally very weak judging by my observations. My personal preference would be to extend the night 486 to Erith, have the night 486 run on all nights, extend the night 36 to Lewisham via current N89 with a small Fri/Sat frequency increase, and a night service introduced to the 45. N89 of course withdrawn as a result. You will no doubt know the N89 better than I do but when I have used it things have been pretty dead from Trafalgar Square to New Cross but a lot busier after that. Presumably the route via Fleet Street is a legacy from the newspaper days? There really doesn't seem much point in it nowadays.
I would think an N99 might be justified Fri/Sat nights linking North Greenwich and Erith by a more direct route?
I'm not sure there is any justification for a night service on the 45 quite honestly?
|
|
|
|
Post by 6HP502C on Sept 18, 2017 17:06:42 GMT
N89 is my local night bus, but I'm afraid the Lewisham - Erith demand is generally very weak judging by my observations. My personal preference would be to extend the night 486 to Erith, have the night 486 run on all nights, extend the night 36 to Lewisham via current N89 with a small Fri/Sat frequency increase, and a night service introduced to the 45. N89 of course withdrawn as a result. Anything that fails the "simple" test wouldn't be highly likely to happen. That includes non-compulsory variation of routes, though granted there are a small number of exceptions, such as the 250 via East Croydon and N3 at Kennington Park. The 65 is a special case but the number might as well be changed back to the N65 given that's what the refurbished buses are blinded for and showing in service. The N89 picks up plenty of custom in the West End, at Elephant, Camberwell and New Cross on weekends. New Cross in particular has its own contingent of revellers that are quite happy to travel way out into the suburbs. I've met people in Venue from places like Dartford and Gravesend who use that bus then get a taxi home. Your proposal may cover bits and pieces of the route but what does it do for those making through journeys, especially on weeknights? It also isolates some parts of Blackheath from the night network. Yes, the demand does tail off after Lewisham but not enough to justify getting rid completely. Running legs would be the logical option, but it's only done where routes operate at 4bph or more. I think a night 45 would struggle to attract many people in its own right. The N63 provides a regular trunk service to the Elephant where the 35 and N133 are available. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 17:35:19 GMT
I would really like it if Arriva ran a commercial route from Erith or Bexleyheath out to Dartford and Gravesend. I know they tried recently with the 490 but the timings were wrong ( not connecting with last train at Dartford )
Having been on a "late" am trip on the N89 it picks up a few morning workers down to Erith & Slade Green area.
I'm looking forward to someone to do some proper research on night bus travel. Wasn't some lady called Val doing it ? She needs to crack on
|
|
|
|
Post by enviroPB on Sept 18, 2017 17:47:31 GMT
N89 is my local night bus, but I'm afraid the Lewisham - Erith demand is generally very weak judging by my observations. My personal preference would be to extend the night 486 to Erith, have the night 486 run on all nights, extend the night 36 to Lewisham via current N89 with a small Fri/Sat frequency increase, and a night service introduced to the 45. N89 of course withdrawn as a result. I'm not sure I see the demand for a 24 hour 45 unfortunately - unlike the 35, the only major night spot on the route is Brixton whilst pretty much the entire route is already covered by night routes. That may be true, but annoyingly Gray's Inn Road has no night roue running along it. Not sure how to sort out that problem; but there's no need to commission route 45 to 24 hour status just for that section of road. Also the Night Tube as well as the 45 running along high PVR corridors at night (as you've said) doesn't make a night service on the 45 feasible. Only when the DLR gain a night service at weekends is it a sensible time to restructure the N89. It is [still] far too popular out of Trafalgar Square for the N89 to be tinkered with; doesn't stop TfL cutting the level of service to 2bph at weekends though.  |
|
|
|
Post by 6HP502C on Sept 18, 2017 19:28:45 GMT
I'm not sure I see the demand for a 24 hour 45 unfortunately - unlike the 35, the only major night spot on the route is Brixton whilst pretty much the entire route is already covered by night routes. That may be true, but annoyingly Gray's Inn Road has no night roue running along it. Not sure how to sort out that problem; but there's no need to commission route 45 to 24 hour status just for that section of road. Also the Night Tube as well as the 45 running along high PVR corridors at night (as you've said) doesn't make a night service on the 45 feasible. Only when the DLR gain a night service at weekends is it a sensible time to restructure the N89. It is [still] far too popular out of Trafalgar Square for the N89 to be tinkered with; doesn't stop TfL cutting the level of service to 2bph at weekends though. Is any part of Grays Inn Road more than a 5 minute walk from a night bus stop though? |
|
|
|
Post by stuckonthe486 on Sept 18, 2017 19:48:10 GMT
I would really like it if Arriva ran a commercial route from Erith or Bexleyheath out to Dartford and Gravesend. I know they tried recently with the 490 but the timings were wrong ( not connecting with last train at Dartford ) Having been on a "late" am trip on the N89 it picks up a few morning workers down to Erith & Slade Green area. I'm looking forward to someone to do some proper research on night bus travel. Wasn't some lady called Val doing it ? She needs to crack on One of the predecessors of the N89 was a private London Central service which was limited stop all the way out to Gillingham - the NX1. Then that became the N81 (to Crayford, Gravesend at weekends, one journey staggering onto Gillingham?) - I remember that seemed to do a decent trade at New Cross for people going east of Dartford. I haven't used night buses for about 18 months, so my observations may carry even less weight than usual, but in my experience over the years the N89 is generally well-used at weekends at least as far as Sun-in-the-Sands. Cutting it back to every 30 minutes would be a seriously retrograde step. It does seem to me that now we have Night Tube and ar about to get a very limited Night Overground, night bus network needs imaginative rethinking rather than cutting back. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Sept 18, 2017 20:06:42 GMT
It does seem to me that now we have Night Tube and are about to get a very limited Night Overground, night bus network needs imaginative rethinking rather than cutting back. [ hysterical laughter at prospect of this from TfL ]  |
|
Was that sarcastic enough for you as a reply? 
I really don't understand how there could be a demand for that level of service via Boston Manor and through West Ealing, let alone down London Road which has the 235, 237, and remember the eastbound N9 starts by 2300.
