Night Tube Bus Routes

[sid]

Oct 11, 2017 11:24:17 GMT overgroundcommuter said:

The Forest Hill Society raised this with Caroline Pidgeon recently, alas the question as there is clearly demand for late night Overground services south of New Cross Gate.

Currently the RRB's run every 5 mins between NXG and Crystal Palace, with deckers between London Bridge and West Croydon.   The NXG to Crystal Palace option using single deckers may be an option.


6bph NXG-CP
6tph - LBG-WCY.

Why not double deckers, 172 to Brockley Rise, 122 to Crystal Palace and 157 to West Croydon? It's only Penge West that wouldn't be served.

[Deleted]

There would be a campaign from Penge residents to get a night link in , 100% confident of that.

[overgroundcommuter]

Oct 11, 2017 11:37:16 GMT sid said:

Oct 11, 2017 11:24:17 GMT overgroundcommuter said:

The Forest Hill Society raised this with Caroline Pidgeon recently, alas the question as there is clearly demand for late night Overground services south of New Cross Gate.

Currently the RRB's run every 5 mins between NXG and Crystal Palace, with deckers between London Bridge and West Croydon.   The NXG to Crystal Palace option using single deckers may be an option.


6bph NXG-CP
6tph - LBG-WCY.

Why not double deckers, 172 to Brockley Rise, 122 to Crystal Palace and 157 to West Croydon? It's only Penge West that wouldn't be served.

Single deckers are better suited to Honor Oak Park and Honor Oak Road.  Also Forest Hill isn't served by a night route from New Cross Gate, leaving passengers at least a 15 min walk from Stanstead Road on the 171.

Incidentally the RRB's don't server Penge West anyway and is a short walk from Anerley Station.     Route 176 serves Penge West through the night anyway.

[sid]

Oct 11, 2017 14:56:45 GMT overgroundcommuter said:

Oct 11, 2017 11:37:16 GMT sid said:

Why not double deckers, 172 to Brockley Rise, 122 to Crystal Palace and 157 to West Croydon? It's only Penge West that wouldn't be served.

Single deckers are better suited to Honor Oak Park and Honor Oak Road.  Also Forest Hill isn't served by a night route from New Cross Gate, leaving passengers at least a 15 min walk from Stanstead Road on the 171.

Incidentally the RRB's don't server Penge West anyway and is a short walk from Anerley Station.     Route 176 serves Penge West through the night anyway.

That's why I suggested the 172 route, it doesn't have to stop right outside HOP station. It would be difficult to serve both Penge West and Crystal Palace and as you said PW has the 176 anyway.

[enviroPB]

Revisiting the 154N in the past fortnight and doing the 158 today, I have noticed something interesting. It seems that weekend night bus figures are skewed, based on how TfL set the goalposts.

For example, I decided to do an end-to-end on the N158 this morning; but whilst on the N26 up to the Mount, I realised the time (4am) and knew from memory that daytime service towards Stratford on the 158 started before 4 every morning pre-Night Tube. Regardless, I still boarded the 04:20 bus and counted the 27 people throughout the journey knowing that these passengers cannot be fully attributed to Night Tube and to some passengers; it's a case of status quo. All those 27 passengers excluding me; were regarded as night bus passengers despite under the previous timetable, they would've been regarded as daytime passengers. 


Given the fact that most of the weekend night routes chosen had early starts on Sundays, it seems TfL are using the Sunday morning loadings to boost up figures. Do your own research; the last 154 departing West Croydon depart at 02:00 daily (albeit to Sutton Green). On weekends, the last daytime departure is 00:30......do the maths people!! 

[snoggle]

Nov 19, 2017 21:07:00 GMT enviroPB said:

Revisiting the 154N in the past fortnight and doing the 158 today, I have noticed something interesting. It seems that weekend night bus figures are skewed, based on how TfL set the goalposts.

For example, I decided to do an end-to-end on the N158 this morning; but whilst on the N26 up to the Mount, I realised the time (4am) and knew from memory that daytime service towards Stratford on the 158 started before 4 every morning pre-Night Tube. Regardless, I still boarded the 04:20 bus and counted the 27 people throughout the journey knowing that these passengers cannot be fully attributed to Night Tube and to some passengers; it's a case of status quo. All those 27 passengers excluding me; were regarded as night bus passengers despite under the previous timetable, they would've been regarded as daytime passengers. 


Given the fact that most of the weekend night routes chosen had early starts on Sundays, it seems TfL are using the Sunday morning loadings to boost up figures. Do your own research; the last 154 departing West Croydon depart at 02:00 daily (albeit to Sutton Green). On weekends, the last daytime departure is 00:30......do the maths people!! 

You can, however, say the opposite has happened when TfL have chopped night journeys out of long standing "N" routes like the N73 and N38 and left gaps [1] or jiggled the schedule of early day route buses. Therefore what was counted as a night route before has either been lost or else transferred to day routes.

[1] yes I am still livid that Su-Th we only have a 23 hour bus service w/b on Forest Rd while it's 24 hour in the other direction. Bl**dy shambles.

[enviroPB]

Nov 20, 2017 0:23:21 GMT snoggle said:

Nov 19, 2017 21:07:00 GMT enviroPB said:

Revisiting the 154N in the past fortnight and doing the 158 today, I have noticed something interesting. It seems that weekend night bus figures are skewed, based on how TfL set the goalposts.

For example, I decided to do an end-to-end on the N158 this morning; but whilst on the N26 up to the Mount, I realised the time (4am) and knew from memory that daytime service towards Stratford on the 158 started before 4 every morning pre-Night Tube. Regardless, I still boarded the 04:20 bus and counted the 27 people throughout the journey knowing that these passengers cannot be fully attributed to Night Tube and to some passengers; it's a case of status quo. All those 27 passengers excluding me; were regarded as night bus passengers despite under the previous timetable, they would've been regarded as daytime passengers. 


Given the fact that most of the weekend night routes chosen had early starts on Sundays, it seems TfL are using the Sunday morning loadings to boost up figures. Do your own research; the last 154 departing West Croydon depart at 02:00 daily (albeit to Sutton Green). On weekends, the last daytime departure is 00:30......do the maths people!! 

You can, however, say the opposite has happened when TfL have chopped night journeys out of long standing "N" routes like the N73 and N38 and left gaps [1] or jiggled the schedule of early day route buses. Therefore what was counted as a night route before has either been lost or else transferred to day routes.

[1] yes I am still livid that Su-Th we only have a 23 hour bus service w/b on Forest Rd while it's 24 hour in the other direction. Bl**dy shambles.

I'm aware of the quiet culls on night routes where there's a biggish PVR or is routed via a trunk corridor. N199 caught me out when I missed the last bus and had a pretty 45 minute wait till the first 208. Thank heavens I was in Catford otherwise I would've been screwed!!

TfL have managed to creep in cuts even when providing new bus services to passengers. The irony is though that under the old service/timetable for some routes particularly on Sunday; the old timetable worked better for them by providing more bph than now. Hope those incriment savings managed to feed TfL's financial black hole so much so that it's disappeared....

[enviroPB]

Had to finish off the year by completing the Night Tube weekend routes, so the 183 and W7 were finally conquered. Considering it was the festive period, I was weary that my observations would count for diddly squat in terms of normal patronage levels; and with single numbers seen on both night 183 and night W7, Christmas took its toll on patronage. What I did pick up on though is the way the N183 provides extra capacity for the N83 along its shared corridor, and having done the 83N a few times; I can certainly say it's a welcome addition.

After Finsbury Park, I then headed to Whitehall for the 53 and the possible effects of the Night Overground on the route. Again, I'm more aware than most that the groups socialising in Shoreditch/Haggerston/Dalston were likely to be out of London for the holidays. Still, the 53N is a trunk route so wouldn't have that many waivering passengers right? Well it hit the average passengers per bus by the time I had to disembark at New Cross Gate. No massive queues for the 53N there, as expected at this time of year; and no massive flurries of passengers from the terminating train.

Two things I did notice taking the Night Overground: announcements are not revised for nightime operation, with notices to alight for trains to Clapham Junction at Surrey Quays for example. And passengers for onwards connections looking like deer in headlights at New Cross Gate; one guy asked me if the trains went to Sydenham! I think sid's idea of a N197 would have come in very handy for that chap.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2017 13:58:12 GMT enviroPB said:

Had to finish off the year by completing the Night Tube weekend routes, so the 183 and W7 were finally conquered. Considering it was the festive period, I was weary that my observations would count for diddly squat in terms of normal patronage levels; and with single numbers seen on both night 183 and night W7, Christmas took its toll on patronage. What I did pick up on though is the way the N183 provides extra capacity for the N83 along its shared corridor, and having done the 83N a few times; I can certainly say it's a welcome addition.

After Finsbury Park, I then headed to Whitehall for the 53 and the possible effects of the Night Overground on the route. Again, I'm more aware than most that the groups socialising in Shoreditch/Haggerston/Dalston were likely to be out of London for the holidays. Still, the 53N is a trunk route so wouldn't have that many waivering passengers right? Well it hit the average passengers per bus by the time I had to disembark at New Cross Gate. No massive queues for the 53N there, as expected at this time of year; and no massive flurries of passengers from the terminating train.

Two things I did notice taking the Night Overground: announcements are not revised for nightime operation, with notices to alight for trains to Clapham Junction at Surrey Quays for example. And passengers for onwards connections looking like deer in headlights at New Cross Gate; one guy asked me if the trains went to Sydenham! I think sid's idea of a N197 would have come in very handy for that chap.

Exactly...This is a night tube for Hipsters not SE Londoners

[6HP502C]

I and a couple of friends went out to Catch in Shoreditch on the 23rd December, which I think was partially closed early due to a deluge in the toilets spilling out onto the dancefloor. Think it was the second weekend of operation of Night Overground.

Two of us bound for Lewisham, the night Overground was very, very welcome! We boarded the 03.21 service and ever so slightly bemused that the trains were running to New Cross, despite all the fanfare saying it was to New Cross Gate. There were probably around 30 people on board that particular train. Shoreditch was pretty dead, asides from the clubs with ticketed events on so was surprised even that many people were on it, especially as it was a brand new service! Our friend bound for Croydon and didn't even come with us - he made his way to Victoria from Liverpool Street instead.

I think Lewisham just about counts as South East London so quite happy to consider myself as one who benefits from it. New Cross is a hub for people from deep South East - the 53, 321, N21 and N89 all provide very fast journeys deep into SE London and it isn't uncommon to see 60+ people on the latter two routes between 0230 and 0330 from New Cross. The N136 and N171 are fairly popular too.

One might argue that perhaps a service to West Croydon with a couple of Citaros from NX via the rail replacement route might be useful - but whether it's worthwhile is another matter. Would it survive on a commercial basis - probably not!

[snoggle]

Just been reading the report about the Night Tube that Snowman linked to earlier.

Here is the relevant excerpt about the impact on Night Bus services. It confirms the Night Bus review was undertaken last Summer.

Night Bus Impacts

4.13 The introduction of the Night Tube in 2016 has affected how passengers travel at night. New Night Bus services were introduced including new routes in the suburbs linking Night Tube stations. Service reductions where buses ran parallel to the Night Tube were deferred pending a full review after its introduction. There has also been a more general decline in radial Night Bus use from central London at weekends, which may be linked to increased use of private hire and taxi services.

4.14 The review was carried out in summer 2017; Night Bus service frequencies are now being adjusted but in no cases are any frequencies dropping below half hourly. About 40 routes have already or shortly will have frequency reductions. In a few cases night services during the week are also being reduced. Passenger boardings on Night Bus services paralleling Night Tube have declined by 13 per cent in the year between period 6 2016/17 and period 6 2017/18.

I have to wonder if a fall of 13 per cent justifies the level of reductions or whether the review actually looked back before the start of the night tube when night bus usage was already falling due to Uber. Therefore I wonder quite what the scope of the review was.

[YY13VKP]

Jan 17, 2018 15:28:57 GMT @cl said:

No Citaros at NX now. Moved to Morden Wharf last year.

Wrong thread??
Citaro’s still visit NX since those that are trainers are actually part of the commercial fleet.

[sid]

Jan 17, 2018 15:42:41 GMT YY13VKP said:

Jan 17, 2018 15:28:57 GMT @cl said:

No Citaros at NX now. Moved to Morden Wharf last year.

Wrong thread??
Citaro’s still visit NX since those that are trainers are actually part of the commercial fleet.

The trainers/rail replacement Citaros are at Q, you can see them from the train.

[YY13VKP]

Jan 17, 2018 15:44:42 GMT sid said:

Jan 17, 2018 15:42:41 GMT YY13VKP said:

Wrong thread??
Citaro’s still visit NX since those that are trainers are actually part of the commercial fleet.

The trainers/rail replacement Citaros are at Q, you can see them from the train.

Yeah because that’s where the recruitment and training department is. Think commercial is mainly based at NX? Some commercial fleet buses are at A, RA and C.

[enviroPB]

Jan 17, 2018 14:13:28 GMT snoggle said:

Just been reading the report about the Night Tube that Snowman linked to earlier.

Here is the relevant excerpt about the impact on Night Bus services. It confirms the Night Bus review was undertaken last Summer.

Night Bus Impacts

4.13 The introduction of the Night Tube in 2016 has affected how passengers travel at night. New Night Bus services were introduced including new routes in the suburbs linking Night Tube stations. Service reductions where buses ran parallel to the Night Tube were deferred pending a full review after its introduction. There has also been a more general decline in radial Night Bus use from central London at weekends, which may be linked to increased use of private hire and taxi services.

4.14 The review was carried out in summer 2017; Night Bus service frequencies are now being adjusted but in no cases are any frequencies dropping below half hourly. About 40 routes have already or shortly will have frequency reductions. In a few cases night services during the week are also being reduced. Passenger boardings on Night Bus services paralleling Night Tube have declined by 13 per cent in the year between period 6 2016/17 and period 6 2017/18.

I have to wonder if a fall of 13 per cent justifies the level of reductions or whether the review actually looked back before the start of the night tube when night bus usage was already falling due to Uber. Therefore I wonder quite what the scope of the review was.

It's quite evident that there's a drop in patronage in passengers to the outer fringes of London. From my observations of the N15 (which I board almost nightly), there are only single digit number of passengers as the Romford-bound bus departs Barking town centre. Even compared to a year ago, you'll easily see a couple douzen passengers on board for further travel past the commuter-belt town.

The time savings is what drives people to Uber more, and those living in the leafy suburbs will have the cash to splash especially if they're in a group. I have a friend that I tried to convince to use the bus from Canning Town McDonald's in May last year to his home in Romford Harold Hill. Even when he was specific about where he lived, he was having none of it as the bus journey would take too long in his view to get home.

Truth be told, I think Night Tube has been a precursor to those getting taxis by dropping them closer to their homes. Some are in the view that night bus travel is just beneath them. Those who simply hop on a night bus just to get closer to their destination to then take the cab, are completely bypassing the buses and using the Night Tube instead.