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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 18:48:09 GMT
Now as you know there have been many views and threads about certain routes being extended from Whipps Cross. The lack of stand space has been an obstacle in preventing routes 339 and 330 from being extended there as well as an optimistic me wanting the 308 to terminate there via snaresbrook and the W12 route. Furthermore other threads have talked about a cycling scheme which will involve reconstructing the roundabout but not creating any extra stand space.
With the 56 being a long and busy route it only seems fair to extend the 357 away from whipps cross. I think it should go to wanstead via the W12 route and snaresbrook. This will allow another route to terminate there which could be more efficient such as the 339 helping the W15 cope with loadings or the 308/330 creating a link between whipps cross and forest gate. The 357 can get busy with school loadings but most of the route is a duplicate of the 97 and is mostly empty during the day it needs some independence. Someone on another thread wanted the 357 to go to Woodford Green.
What are your views on this?
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Post by routew15 on Jul 16, 2014 20:07:10 GMT
Now as you know there have been many views and threads about certain routes being extended from Whipps Cross. The lack of stand space has been an obstacle in preventing routes 339 and 330 from being extended there as well as an optimistic me wanting the 308 to terminate there via snaresbrook and the W12 route. Furthermore other threads have talked about a cycling scheme which will involve reconstructing the roundabout but not creating any extra stand space. With the 56 being a long and busy route it only seems fair to extend the 357 away from whipps cross. I think it should go to wanstead via the W12 route and snaresbrook. This will allow another route to terminate there which could be more efficient such as the 339 helping the W15 cope with loadings or the 308/330 creating a link between whipps cross and forest gate. The 357 can get busy with school loadings but most of the route is a duplicate of the 97 and is mostly empty during the day it needs some independence. Someone on another thread wanted the 357 to go to Woodford Green. What are your views on this? I really don't agree with most of these proposals. The benefits that the 308 extension provides stop at Wanstead, people would not need to go further than that because the routing is long (eg Whipps Cross to Cann Hall Road would be faster via 257/58 then by the one 308 route would take (that is bad baring in mind the 257 sits in a bit of traffic (plus the 308s first stop at Whipps X is quite inconvenient) the similar applies to the 330 it'd be nice between Whipps X and Wanstead but after that, small amount of benefits (especially judging by the small loads the 308 takes from Wanstead to Cann Hall Road). The two 357 extensions I support are, the one to Woodford Green and The other to Manor Park (which I shall explain later) and I don't want anyone touching my 56 it fine how it is. On the point of the W12, I'd like to say that any high frequency routes introduced along side the W12 will encourage the w12 to be discontinued, as it it already runs every 20 mins so the frequency can not get much lower before TfL start asking questions about the cost to passenger ratio. One extension I back completely is the 339 extension to Whipps X, but even that doesn't meet all the criteria. One of the many busy stops on the W15 is Whipps Cross/ Wood Street, (espically during AM peak) this bus stop can get quite hectic so having the 339 start one stop after is quite annoying, however during a 20 min observation (spontaneously happened while waiting for the W12) I noticed that most people trying to catch a W15 (or 257 when the W15 gets to full) start their journey walking from the Wood Street direction. My 339 idea comes in 3 options extend the 339 Option 1) to Upper Walthamstow via Wood Street, Fyfield Road, Avon Road, Bisterne Avenue Option 2) to Walthamstow Forest (Hyland House School Bus Stand) via Wood Street, Forest road Option 3) to Walthamstow Forest (") via Wood Street, Fyfield Road, Winsbeach, Forest Road My preferred option is Option 2, as this help 2/3 routes in one extension, the W16 between Wood Street and Leytonstone (only), the 230 along Wood Street (where it sometimes runs every 20 mins!!) and the W15 between Wood Street/ Whipps Cross and Central Avenue. 357 to Manor Park Whipps Cross - Whipps Cross Road - Green Man Roundabout - Bush Road - Blake Hall road - Centre Road - Capel Road - Manor Park Station - Romford Road terminating on Salisbury road 1 bus stand could be constructed outside of 55 Salisbury Road (where the double Yellow lines are) The 357 extension to Manor Park would make a lot more sense in helping out the W19, and providing a bus service on the unserved Capel Road however if Capel Road is not seen as a suitable option the Extension can serve Aldersbrook Road, Forest Drive, Manor Park Station, Romford Road, Salisbury Road (The changes to the 357 would not necessarily need to happen if the 339 was extended to Walthamstow Forest) |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 16, 2014 20:55:43 GMT
The answer is to do nothing with the 56 and 357. I see no need to change either of them. Yes there are times when the 357 is quiet but it provides useful "round the corner" links and much needed peak capacity. Not every bus on every route has to run at 100% capacity all the time.
When TfL consulted on the Olympic Park services I submitted the following proposal to TfL which they duly ignored.
Create a new route from Stratford City via the proposed 339 route to Whipps Cross and then to Crooked Billet (Sainsburys) via Wood Street, Forest Road, Hale End Road, Wadham Road, Billet Roundabout, Chingford Avenue to Sainsburys. To "fund" this extension I proposed running the new route at a x20 headway while the 339 remained at its existing frequency. My proposal would provide a load of useful links in the network, link people to Wood St station from a wider hinterland and give people in Hale End and Wadham Road access to other bus services, the Hospital and the big Sainsburys. It would also fulfill a desire from Waltham Forest Council for a bus service along the length of Wood St - I believe the width restriction under the bridge went a while ago.
My proposal doesn't require stand space at Whipps Cross but clearly there would be stand issues at Stratford City and Sainsburys but they're not beyond resolution. 397s can stand for 20 mins at Sainsburys so the one stand there is occupied for a lot of the time. However there is space elsewhere in the car park which TfL could negotiate for with Sainsburys. Two extra routes (339 and my new one) at Stratford City should be possible but TfL seem able to use up nearly all the space with only three routes terminating there!
I don't see the point in extending the 357 to Manor Park. There are only two things I'd like to do with the 357. Either extend it back to Chingford Station or run it via the 657 to Woodford Green and then the 275 to Woodford Station. I'd prefer the second as it would fill in an awkward gap in the bus network.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 16, 2014 21:52:22 GMT
The answer is to do nothing with the 56 and 357. I see no need to change either of them. Yes there are times when the 357 is quiet but it provides useful "round the corner" links and much needed peak capacity. Not every bus on every route has to run at 100% capacity all the time. When TfL consulted on the Olympic Park services I submitted the following proposal to TfL which they duly ignored. Create a new route from Stratford City via the proposed 339 route to Whipps Cross and then to Crooked Billet (Sainsburys) via Wood Street, Forest Road, Hale End Road, Wadham Road, Billet Roundabout, Chingford Avenue to Sainsburys. To "fund" this extension I proposed running the new route at a x20 headway while the 339 remained at its existing frequency. My proposal would provide a load of useful links in the network, link people to Wood St station from a wider hinterland and give people in Hale End and Wadham Road access to other bus services, the Hospital and the big Sainsburys. It would also fulfill a desire from Waltham Forest Council for a bus service along the length of Wood St - I believe the width restriction under the bridge went a while ago. My proposal doesn't require stand space at Whipps Cross but clearly there would be stand issues at Stratford City and Sainsburys but they're not beyond resolution. 397s can stand for 20 mins at Sainsburys so the one stand there is occupied for a lot of the time. However there is space elsewhere in the car park which TfL could negotiate for with Sainsburys. Two extra routes (339 and my new one) at Stratford City should be possible but TfL seem able to use up nearly all the space with only three routes terminating there! I don't see the point in extending the 357 to Manor Park. There are only two things I'd like to do with the 357. Either extend it back to Chingford Station or run it via the 657 to Woodford Green and then the 275 to Woodford Station. I'd prefer the second as it would fill in an awkward gap in the bus network. Just had a look on Google Street view and there doesn't seem to be any restriction under the Wood Street bridge - the road does narrow at that point though. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 16, 2014 22:14:56 GMT
Just had a look on Google Street view and there doesn't seem to be any restriction under the Wood Street bridge - the road does narrow at that point though. It used to have very narrow car lanes and a central fire gate so a through bus route was impossible. One reason why the ancient 35 / old 235 / W16 turns up Vallentin Road and runs via Shernhall St to reach Lea Bridge Road. I don't get up to that bit of Wood St very often. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 13:21:11 GMT
There are some very interesting views. I agree with Snoggle's proposal to extend the 357 to Woodford Station. Regards the 339 option 1 is probably out of the question as the stand at Upper Walthamstow isn't big enough to deal with the 230 and 339 but Options 2 and 3 sound interesting. An extension to Manor Park does sound quite lengthy especially if delays start to develop at the Green Man roundabout which will cause problems with reliability. It is still surprising that the 357 can get curtailed to Chingford mount or Walthamstow Central due to the delays in Walthamstow. I see your point about the extension to Wanstead possibly questioning the existence of the W12 but I would still feel it won't suffer a heavy loss in terms of loadings as it has two hail and ride sections serves the whole Whipps Cross (including the hospital) and serves South Woodford. If it was to lose passengers it could be re-routed or extended round the local Walthamstow areas including Palmerston Road which may be needed as the current diversions on the W11 and W15 are proving to be useful. This is really farfetched and would harm the W12 but if the 357 was extended from Whipps Cross I would try and move the W13 there and it could be extended from Woodford Wells. It would be even better if the 357 was extended in both directions and the new route could be between Woodford Green/Woodford Station to Wanstead as I feel it's important to open up stand space for another route.
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Post by mondraker275 on Jul 18, 2014 14:12:42 GMT
Now as you know there have been many views and threads about certain routes being extended from Whipps Cross. The lack of stand space has been an obstacle in preventing routes 339 and 330 from being extended there as well as an optimistic me wanting the 308 to terminate there via snaresbrook and the W12 route. Furthermore other threads have talked about a cycling scheme which will involve reconstructing the roundabout but not creating any extra stand space. With the 56 being a long and busy route it only seems fair to extend the 357 away from whipps cross. I think it should go to wanstead via the W12 route and snaresbrook. This will allow another route to terminate there which could be more efficient such as the 339 helping the W15 cope with loadings or the 308/330 creating a link between whipps cross and forest gate. The 357 can get busy with school loadings but most of the route is a duplicate of the 97 and is mostly empty during the day it needs some independence. Someone on another thread wanted the 357 to go to Woodford Green. What are your views on this? Why would Waltham Forest redevelop the Roundabout and not accommodate the current buses and the 339? |
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Post by jrussa on Jul 18, 2014 14:52:10 GMT
I think I would extend Route W11 both ways to be frank.. It can still serve Chingford Estate and return onto Chingford Road in both directions.
The only alteration to Route W11 would be to keep its current routing via Hoe Street and Forest Road.
I would rather Route 66 extend to Walthamstow than Route 339 extend to Whipps Cross. If Route 66 was to extend, I would not want it to serve the exact same routing as Routes W15 or W19. This is when I would recommend it to serve via Wood Street, Forest Road and Hoe Street. The main argument I can see against Route 66 extending to Walthamstow is reliability. But I honestly believe Route 66 (Romford to Walthamstow) would be very useful like Route 86 (Romford to Stratford).
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Post by snoggle on Jul 18, 2014 15:42:40 GMT
Why would Waltham Forest redevelop the Roundabout and not accommodate the current buses and the 339? Because they're incompetent? Take a look at page 48 of the Mini Holland bid and count up the stand space. Looks to be fewer stands than there are now. You can just about get 4 buses to stand at Whipps Cross now and the drawing in the document shows space for three. I can't fathom where the actual bus stops are if those red blocks side by side represent buses on the stand. Therefore I can't see the 339 reaching Whipps Cross if that scheme gets built. TfL can't find stand space for it now so it's impossible with fewer stands. Also in that document is a plan to remove the gyratory on Hoe St / Walthamstow Central. They plan to remove the roadway from the older western half of the bridge over the Chingford Line. This means buses and cars wanting to reach the station and travelling south from the Bell will have to queue to turn right at the lights by the pub. The gyratory may be a pain at times but it does at least provide some "holding capacity" allowing other vehicles to get past and drive down to the Bakers Arms. At this rate it will take 20-30 minutes on average to get from the Bell to the Central and at Christmas time the jams will stretch down Forest Road and up to the Billet meaning it'll take 40-50 mins to do what should take 5 minutes. That is insanity IMO. How to completely destroy the bus service and to think TfL are giving Waltham Forest £30m to do this! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 18:43:22 GMT
Jamaicarussa I don't know if it's just me but I seem to like your ideas a lot. The 66 would seem to be a great asset if it was extended to Walthamstow providing important links to Gants Hill, Newbury Park and Romford and given the fact that it is now a double decker route it is possible to handle the increasing number of passengers. The diversion to Walthamstow via Wood Street is smart in that it avoids the busy traffic in Whipps Cross and Bakers Arms. I also appreciate Snoggle's knowledge with all these proposals (how do you find them?) the removal of the gyratory will cause utter chaos for Crooked Billet routes meaning that the 357 would suffer making an extension more difficult.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2014 19:42:55 GMT
They want to get rid of the bus lane on high street leyton aswell!!!!! What a joke there isn't even that many cyclists that use that route.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 20, 2014 11:52:18 GMT
I also appreciate Snoggle's knowledge with all these proposals (how do you find them?) the removal of the gyratory will cause utter chaos for Crooked Billet routes meaning that the 357 would suffer making an extension more difficult. I get some info from regularly checking TfL consultations and all of the TfL panel and board papers. Other stuff I pick up from twitter as a result of some of the people I follow. I also have too much time on my hands.  |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 8, 2014 0:58:57 GMT
The 357 is a pointless route ever since it was cut back to Chingford Hatch from its 97A days. I say scrap it altogether, it is never full unless there is a gap in service from the 215 or 97 and does not warrant double deckers imo. If it were to be extended to Woodford Station as Snoggle mentioned, it makes sense; other than that I don't see the point of the route.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 8, 2014 9:18:01 GMT
The 357 is a pointless route ever since it was cut back to Chingford Hatch from its 97A days. I say scrap it altogether, it is never full unless there is a gap in service from the 215 or 97 and does not warrant double deckers imo. If it were to be extended to Woodford Station as Snoggle mentioned, it makes sense; other than that I don't see the point of the route. Yes but you've never seen the point of it. Every time I see a 357 with lots of people on it my brain goes "ha, Capital Omnibus would not like this".  |
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Post by Trident on Oct 8, 2014 13:12:57 GMT
The 357 is a pointless route ever since it was cut back to Chingford Hatch from its 97A days. I say scrap it altogether, it is never full unless there is a gap in service from the 215 or 97 and does not warrant double deckers imo. If it were to be extended to Woodford Station as Snoggle mentioned, it makes sense; other than that I don't see the point of the route. The 357 is a tough one. Off peaks i'd agree with some of your points mentioned as sometimes you can be the one of very few passengers on the bus. However, I see this route quite useful during the peaks as its normally used up Northbound out of Walthamstow. It is a help to the 97, particularly at times when the service has inconsistent headways due to varying traffic issues along the route. |
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