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Post by VPL630 on Aug 11, 2014 21:10:19 GMT
Was the current E400 cheaper than the Gemini 2? I assume it was given it's more popular. The euro4 and euro5 engined ADL E400 had the optional spec of the 6.7L engine coupled to a ZF box, which the Gemini 2 bodied bus (DW and B9TL) doesn't offer in combination. This may form part of the Enviro400's popularity with the London firms, which tend to favor the ZF box and often the most economic engine available for a double decker. The 6.7L engine and ZF box were standard The DW was optional on ZF I can't see what you post is tying to get across ?
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Post by M1104 on Aug 11, 2014 22:12:42 GMT
The euro4 and euro5 engined ADL E400 had the optional spec of the 6.7L engine coupled to a ZF box, which the Gemini 2 bodied bus (DW and B9TL) doesn't offer in combination. This may form part of the Enviro400's popularity with the London firms, which tend to favor the ZF box and often the most economic engine available for a double decker. The 6.7L engine and ZF box were standard ZF and Voith are equally optional with the ADL E400s. As for the DW/DB300s being available on ZF, are there any such examples in service within the UK?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 23:25:33 GMT
The Gemini 3 is a bit of a disapointment really, its as though somebody wanted to change the styling of the body but gave up half way through. The fact the front end was esentually the same design with such radical changes to everything else makes it look weird, the top deck windows look horribly proportioned with everything else too.
The original Gemini's do feel luxurious and they were certainly different to any other box on wheels that were common back in the early 2000's. The design was certainly well rounded and clean (if a tad bulbous), but was an impressive result for Wrights first DD bus, but I think Wright should go back to the drawing board and try something else now.
I like the fact ADL have actually gone to town adding so many new features with the MMC, I think they missed a trick and could have launched it as a completely new bus type. The styling isn't amazing but it seems to be very innovative. The E400 gets my vote.
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Post by VPL630 on Aug 11, 2014 23:28:43 GMT
The 6.7L engine and ZF box were standard ZF and Voith are equally optional with the ADL E400s. As for the DW/DB300s being available on ZF, are there any such examples in service within the UK? None in the UK
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Post by M1104 on Aug 12, 2014 0:20:14 GMT
I like the fact ADL have actually gone to town adding so many new features with the MMC, I think they missed a trick and could have launched it as a completely new bus type. That got me thinking whether Abellio and Metroline will have separate fleet numbers for their MMC Enviros or will they simply continue on from their existing variants. Arriva decided to 'somewhat' number their second-generation DWs separately (...DW134, DW201...) whereas Go Ahead London's WVLs continued on with the next number (...WVL273, WVL274...).
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Post by Nathan on Aug 12, 2014 0:44:06 GMT
I like the fact ADL have actually gone to town adding so many new features with the MMC, I think they missed a trick and could have launched it as a completely new bus type. That got me thinking whether Abellio and Metroline will have separate fleet numbers for their MMC Enviros or will they simply continue on from their existing variants. Arriva decided to 'somewhat' number their second-generation DWs separately (...DW134, DW201...) whereas Go Ahead London's WVLs continued on with the next number (...WVL273, WVL274...).I like the numbering system GAL have. Arriva's one is confusing slightly. And I still don't really see any major differences in the new MMC. My first impressions are that it's essentially the same bus with a slightly altered exterior and interior design with a bit more leg room. BIG WHOOP! But I guess I'll really judge it when I get to board it next year when they enter service. And what does MMC actually stand for?
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Post by vjaska on Aug 12, 2014 1:49:20 GMT
That got me thinking whether Abellio and Metroline will have separate fleet numbers for their MMC Enviros or will they simply continue on from their existing variants. Arriva decided to 'somewhat' number their second-generation DWs separately (...DW134, DW201...) whereas Go Ahead London's WVLs continued on with the next number (...WVL273, WVL274...).And I still don't really see any major differences in the new MMC. My first impressions are that it's essentially the same bus with a slightly altered exterior and interior design with a bit more leg room. BIG WHOOP! You could say that between the Gemini & Gemini2 though..........
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 12, 2014 7:09:45 GMT
Was the current E400 cheaper than the Gemini 2? I assume it was given it's more popular. The popularity may be down to the fact the Gemini2 only came out around early 2009 whereas the first sizeable batch of Enviro 400's was in December 2005/January 2006. It also didn't help that Arriva Bus & Coach were the main supplier for the DB300 / Gemini2 Integral along with being the main agent for VDL, (like they were for the DB250) so perhaps some operators didn't want to be buying stock from a rival. Also, VDL didn't use a Euro6 engine for the DB300, and Wright tried with Daimler instead, making their own product. See the successful DW411 I liked the Voith / B9TL combination, but there are not many in London. I'd love to see a B5TL/MMC combination one day
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 12, 2014 7:12:36 GMT
That got me thinking whether Abellio and Metroline will have separate fleet numbers for their MMC Enviros or will they simply continue on from their existing variants. Arriva decided to 'somewhat' number their second-generation DWs separately (...DW134, DW201...) whereas Go Ahead London's WVLs continued on with the next number (...WVL273, WVL274...).I like the numbering system GAL have. Arriva's one is confusing slightly. And I still don't really see any major differences in the new MMC. My first impressions are that it's essentially the same bus with a slightly altered exterior and interior design with a bit more leg room. BIG WHOOP! But I guess I'll really judge it when I get to board it next year when they enter service. And what does MMC actually stand for? Major Model Change, but in reality a slight revision, like they do with mobile phones (see Galaxy 4 / 5, iphone 5S and 6) So this is the E400S
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Post by vjaska on Aug 12, 2014 9:10:42 GMT
The popularity may be down to the fact the Gemini2 only came out around early 2009 whereas the first sizeable batch of Enviro 400's was in December 2005/January 2006. It also didn't help that Arriva Bus & Coach were the main supplier for the DB300 / Gemini2 Integral along with being the main agent for VDL, (like they were for the DB250) so perhaps some operators didn't want to be buying stock from a rival. Also, VDL didn't use a Euro6 engine for the DB300, and Wright tried with Daimler instead, making their own product. See the successful DW411 I liked the Voith / B9TL combination, but there are not many in London. I'd love to see a B5TL/MMC combination one day VDL didn't use a Euro V or IV engine either for the DB300 as all DB300's have Cummins engines.
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Post by LX09FBJ on Aug 12, 2014 9:30:04 GMT
The E400 MMC gets my vote because it's an Enviro400 (and indeed most Alexander/Transbus/ADL double deckers are very good) That said though, I did like the Gemini 1 and 2, but they've messed up the Gemini 3 with the out-of-proportion windows amongst other things, but it's a nice bus to ride And what does MMC actually stand for? Major Model Change
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Post by M1104 on Aug 12, 2014 9:50:13 GMT
That got me thinking whether Abellio and Metroline will have separate fleet numbers for their MMC Enviros or will they simply continue on from their existing variants. Arriva decided to 'somewhat' number their second-generation DWs separately (...DW134, DW201...) whereas Go Ahead London's WVLs continued on with the next number (...WVL273, WVL274...).I like the numbering system GAL have. Arriva's one is confusing slightly. And I still don't really see any major differences in the new MMC. My first impressions are that it's essentially the same bus with a slightly altered exterior and interior design with a bit more leg room. BIG WHOOP! There is also the engineering aspect of the model that would have been redesigned...the wiring, the pipes, the air vents, etc.
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Post by M1104 on Aug 12, 2014 9:57:39 GMT
It also didn't help that Arriva Bus & Coach were the main supplier for the DB300 / Gemini2 Integral along with being the main agent for VDL, (like they were for the DB250) so perhaps some operators didn't want to be buying stock from a rival. Also, VDL didn't use a Euro6 engine for the DB300, and Wright tried with Daimler instead, making their own product. See the successful DW411 I liked the Voith / B9TL combination, but there are not many in London. I'd love to see a B5TL/MMC combination one day VDL didn't use a Euro V or IV engine either for the DB300 as all DB300's have Cummins engines. The Cummin engines they used are euro IV and euro V accordingly, unless you meant that VDL didn't create 'their own' units for the DB300.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 12, 2014 10:09:54 GMT
VDL didn't use a Euro V or IV engine either for the DB300 as all DB300's have Cummins engines. unless you meant that VDL didn't create 'their own' units for the DB300. Precisely what I meant lol.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 12, 2014 11:31:08 GMT
There is also the engineering aspect of the model that would have been redesigned...the wiring, the pipes, the air vents, etc. Let's be honest here - it is this aspect and how much it costs to run and maintain a bus that the operators are concerned with. External visual appearance is neither here nor there for operators on London contract work. So long as the bus meets TfL's spec and they can buy / lease it at a cheap rate and the bus is reliable and efficient then everything else is secondary. Operators in London are not bothered about fancy liveries, wifi, coffee shop style flooring because there is no competitive advantage in offering it. I understand why enthusiasts get "worked up" about new bus types but it's nearly all based on how the bus looks and for some what "throbs and roars" the engine and transmission provide. I can't see any bus operator going "oh we'll buy that model because it makes a really cool noise when it accelerates fast". I guess "DW498 Bus Co" or "Vjaska Buses Limited" might be exceptions to that rule.
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