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Post by snoggle on Aug 18, 2014 16:07:30 GMT
LU have started the procurement process for more trains on the Northern and Jubilee Line. Global Rail News articleNote that LU expect to sign the contract to build the Battersea Extension on the Northern Line in early September.
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Post by M1104 on Aug 18, 2014 16:27:28 GMT
Does this mean their existing 95/96 stock could be transferred to the Bakerloo and Picadilly lines? Would be a shame to withdraw them from the underground as they could probably get another 10 years out of them.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 18, 2014 16:42:38 GMT
Does this mean their existing 95/96 stock could be transferred to the Bakerloo and Picadilly lines? Would be a shame to withdraw them from the underground as they could probably get another 10 years out of them. I don't think so. The Northern needs a lot of extra trains to cope with the second stage upgrade plus the Battersea extension. Train frequencies are scheduled to go up considerably if they can find a way to increase passenger handling capacity at Camden Town - that's a key constraint. Depot and siding space will be another. Finding space for another 50 trains is no easy task. The Bakerloo fleet is going to be modified and have the most worn out bits replaced. I understand three trains are going through the process at the moment as a "trial run". The Bakerloo Line fleet won't be replaced for at least 12 and probably nearer 16 years. The Picc Line will get the "new Tube for London / EVO" rolling stock sometime around 2023 and then LU seem to be prevaricating as to whether the Bakerloo or Central get upgraded next. Of course there is no funding for any of this so it's all a bit fanciful even if the lines definitely require upgrading.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 18, 2014 17:31:21 GMT
Does this mean their existing 95/96 stock could be transferred to the Bakerloo and Picadilly lines? Would be a shame to withdraw them from the underground as they could probably get another 10 years out of them. I don't think so. The Northern needs a lot of extra trains to cope with the second stage upgrade plus the Battersea extension. Train frequencies are scheduled to go up considerably if they can find a way to increase passenger handling capacity at Camden Town - that's a key constraint. Depot and siding space will be another. Finding space for another 50 trains is no easy task. The Bakerloo fleet is going to be modified and have the most worn out bits replaced. I understand three trains are going through the process at the moment as a "trial run". The Bakerloo Line fleet won't be replaced for at least 12 and probably nearer 16 years. The Picc Line will get the "new Tube for London / EVO" rolling stock sometime around 2023 and then LU seem to be prevaricating as to whether the Bakerloo or Central get upgraded next. Of course there is no funding for any of this so it's all a bit fanciful even if the lines definitely require upgrading. The Central Line trains are only 22 years old, could easily do another 10-15 years and are in a far better state than the Northern & Piccadilly stock and that's even ignoring the refurb the 1992 stock got.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 18, 2014 19:51:42 GMT
I don't think so. The Northern needs a lot of extra trains to cope with the second stage upgrade plus the Battersea extension. Train frequencies are scheduled to go up considerably if they can find a way to increase passenger handling capacity at Camden Town - that's a key constraint. Depot and siding space will be another. Finding space for another 50 trains is no easy task. The Bakerloo fleet is going to be modified and have the most worn out bits replaced. I understand three trains are going through the process at the moment as a "trial run". The Bakerloo Line fleet won't be replaced for at least 12 and probably nearer 16 years. The Picc Line will get the "new Tube for London / EVO" rolling stock sometime around 2023 and then LU seem to be prevaricating as to whether the Bakerloo or Central get upgraded next. Of course there is no funding for any of this so it's all a bit fanciful even if the lines definitely require upgrading. The Central Line trains are only 22 years old, could easily do another 10-15 years and are in a far better state than the Northern & Piccadilly stock and that's even ignoring the refurb the 1992 stock got. The Central Line stock has several design deficiencies and LU has had to spend tens of millions to try to remediate those problems. There is no guarantee that the problems won't re-emerge and I think there is a desire to get rid of them sooner rather than later because they're considered to be a liability that will simply get greater as the stock ages. We have to remember that the stock is getting hammered and is being worked harder than was ever planned. LU actively looked at scrapping the 92 stock a few years ago and buying a whole new fleet - the money wasn't there to do it. There are also obsolescence issues with the ATO kit on the line. 73 stock and the power / signalling cables on the Picc Line are unlikely to last much longer without spending very considerable sums of money. The maintenance regime over many years has been predicated on the fleet being taken out of service from now to 2017. That's clearly not going to happen so they have to stretch another 8 years out of them. There were concerns 3 years ago about needing to modify the 73 stock so they could interwork with the then proposed SSR signalling technology. Fiddling around with cables and wires inside trains is a fraught business when those wires are 40 years old. I expect there are bigger problems now given the SSR resignalling has gone back following the collapse of the contract so you have the potentially stupid situation of having to modify 73 stock with new kit when the likelihood is that you might start withdrawing the same stock within 1-2 years. That makes no sense so expect to see some short term service pattern changes or rephasing of how the SSR resignalling is done. LU will have to spend some money on keeping 73 stock running for another 8 years - this is what happens when you don't long term funding commitments. You get suboptimal decisions and money being wasted. Keeping 72 stock in service for nigh on 60 years might keep tube fans happy but it's the economics of the mad house and redolent of the absolute worst aspects of LT in the 1980s when we had 38 stock still running (even if they were lovely old trains).
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Post by M1104 on Aug 19, 2014 11:18:17 GMT
Does this mean their existing 95/96 stock could be transferred to the Bakerloo and Picadilly lines? Would be a shame to withdraw them from the underground as they could probably get another 10 years out of them. Just realised they are additional trains and not replacements, which is what confused me about the 50 in number for the Northern Line... that's quite a huge number of extra trains. I assume these new trains will not be the same design as what's presently used...reintroducing mixed allocations to both lines (Jubilee before having 72 and 83 stock together with the Northern having 59 and 72 stock).
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Post by twobellstogo on Aug 19, 2014 15:09:00 GMT
Does this mean their existing 95/96 stock could be transferred to the Bakerloo and Picadilly lines? Would be a shame to withdraw them from the underground as they could probably get another 10 years out of them. Just realised they are additional trains and not replacements, which is what confused me about the 50 in number for the Northern Line... that's quite a huge number of extra trains. I assume these new trains will not be the same design as what's presently used...reintroducing mixed allocations to both lines (Jubilee before having 72 and 83 stock together with the Northern having 59 and 72 stock). I believe they will be identical to the current stock on the lines. Re. the 1992 stock : when I have a few days to spare, I'll list all the problems this stock has had over the years!
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Post by M1104 on Aug 19, 2014 15:31:21 GMT
Just realised they are additional trains and not replacements, which is what confused me about the 50 in number for the Northern Line... that's quite a huge number of extra trains. I assume these new trains will not be the same design as what's presently used...reintroducing mixed allocations to both lines (Jubilee before having 72 and 83 stock together with the Northern having 59 and 72 stock). I believe they will be identical to the current stock on the lines. Re. the 1992 stock : when I have a few days to spare, I'll list all the problems this stock has had over the years! I did hear stories about those Central line trains, bearing in mind they were first of its kind after the three prototypes that were on the Jubilee line around the late 80s or early 90s.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 19, 2014 17:49:15 GMT
Just realised they are additional trains and not replacements, which is what confused me about the 50 in number for the Northern Line... that's quite a huge number of extra trains. I assume these new trains will not be the same design as what's presently used...reintroducing mixed allocations to both lines (Jubilee before having 72 and 83 stock together with the Northern having 59 and 72 stock). I believe they will be identical to the current stock on the lines. Re. the 1992 stock : when I have a few days to spare, I'll list all the problems this stock has had over the years! They'll still in a better state though than the Northern Line stock lol.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 19, 2014 18:38:55 GMT
Does this mean their existing 95/96 stock could be transferred to the Bakerloo and Picadilly lines? Would be a shame to withdraw them from the underground as they could probably get another 10 years out of them. Just realised they are additional trains and not replacements, which is what confused me about the 50 in number for the Northern Line... that's quite a huge number of extra trains. I assume these new trains will not be the same design as what's presently used...reintroducing mixed allocations to both lines (Jubilee before having 72 and 83 stock together with the Northern having 59 and 72 stock). The trains are required to be equivalents to those already in use. Someone sent me a link to the TfL procurement system and the content is as follows for this prospective order. "The Contracting Entity intends to purchase new tube gauge rolling stock to support the following programmes: a) Northern Line Extension (NLE), to support extension of the Northern Line service from Kennington to Battersea. b) Jubilee Line Upgrade (JLU2) and Northern Line Upgrade (NLU2), to support increases in service frequency and operating hours following the re-signaling of each line. The new rolling stock will be required to substantially replicate the gauging and operational characteristics of the existing Jubilee and Northern Line rolling stock in the form of a "modern equivalent train". Apart from specific differences associated with infrastructure and operating requirements for each line, the new rolling stock is expected to be of the same gauge and specification for each line. The purchase will also include technical, spares and other support services for a period of up to the anticipated design life of the new rolling stock." Therefore the trains won't be identical but do need to be very close in terms of design and performance to the existing trains. Note also the requirement to provide spares and support for the design life of the new trains.
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Post by bigbaddom1981 on Aug 19, 2014 18:47:16 GMT
Just realised they are additional trains and not replacements, which is what confused me about the 50 in number for the Northern Line... that's quite a huge number of extra trains. I assume these new trains will not be the same design as what's presently used...reintroducing mixed allocations to both lines (Jubilee before having 72 and 83 stock together with the Northern having 59 and 72 stock). The trains are required to be equivalents to those already in use. Someone sent me a link to the TfL procurement system and the content is as follows for this prospective order. "The Contracting Entity intends to purchase new tube gauge rolling stock to support the following programmes: a) Northern Line Extension (NLE), to support extension of the Northern Line service from Kennington to Battersea. b) Jubilee Line Upgrade (JLU2) and Northern Line Upgrade (NLU2), to support increases in service frequency and operating hours following the re-signaling of each line. The new rolling stock will be required to substantially replicate the gauging and operational characteristics of the existing Jubilee and Northern Line rolling stock in the form of a "modern equivalent train". Apart from specific differences associated with infrastructure and operating requirements for each line, the new rolling stock is expected to be of the same gauge and specification for each line. The purchase will also include technical, spares and other support services for a period of up to the anticipated design life of the new rolling stock." Therefore the trains won't be identical but do need to be very close in terms of design and performance to the existing trains. Note also the requirement to provide spares and support for the design life of the new trains. Bombardier will be kept busy!
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Post by snoggle on Aug 19, 2014 20:07:12 GMT
]Bombardier will be kept busy! Alstom surely? They built the stock. They have a reasonable advantage - provided they actually want the work!
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Post by bigbaddom1981 on Aug 19, 2014 20:16:06 GMT
]Bombardier will be kept busy! Alstom surely? They built the stock. They have a reasonable advantage - provided they actually want the work! Oops got my stock mixed up, thought us DD forum members would know better
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Post by Green Kitten on Aug 20, 2014 8:51:58 GMT
I believe they will be identical to the current stock on the lines. Re. the 1992 stock : when I have a few days to spare, I'll list all the problems this stock has had over the years! They'll still in a better state though than the Northern Line stock lol. I don't know about that... the 1995ts has always been reliable to me and look even better after their recent refurbishment, they look better than ever. (but do they have to use the same moquette for each line?! Central, Jubilee... now Northern ! The original one was the best.) As much as I love the 1992s, there was a time where there wasn't a train without duct tape ! They're better now but they always look a bit tatty, not helped by the dull lighting in the carriages. More trains on the Northern Line? Please. No wonder I took the 134 instead of taking the Northern Line to uni
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Post by towerman on Aug 22, 2014 14:59:02 GMT
Will the trains be able to couple to the older stock or will they have to be kept seperate?
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