South West London Buses

[snoggle]

As a few of you have been nice / insane / bonkers [1] enough to suggest I should comment on the other London quadrant bus networks then here goes. I thought I'd have a go at South West London - an area I've only travelled in intermittently by bus so my knowledge is perhaps a bit partial.

Firstly the "Cult of Metroline" hasn't really stretched its tentacles into this area very much. Instead we have RAT London oooppps RATP London as a major player but it sometimes suffers the "Agony of Abellio" as the Dutch interloper not only runs TfL services but also has the area surrounded with routes from Surrey.

Now fair play to Abellio who have managed to keep these many and varied cross boundary services going but I do wonder if perhaps, in better times, TfL and Surrey County Council could do something a little more attractive with those routes. For example instead of hourly headways could they do much better with a half hourly one or where they are half hourly could a bus every 20 mins work wonders? South West London is very well blessed with cross boundary routes around Kingston, Epsom, Staines and Heathrow but there are still some very obvious gaps. Why no simple orbital route from New Addington to Purley to Banstead to Epsom and say Chessington? A direct car journey but nigh on impossible by bus despite this being virtually on the G London/Surrey boundary (the 166 does parts of it but at a low frequency, not daily and sometimes via indirect routes). Why no simple routes like Twickenham, Fulwell, Hampton Court, East Moseley, Esher? or West Molesley, Walton, Shepperton, Sunbury, Hampton? They needn't be massively frequent to start off with but a modest regular service even at a composite fare somewhere between the TfL fare and a commercial fare might work - say £2 flat fare on those services rather than £1.50. These routes could also offer convenient links between the different branches of the SWT rail network thus improving resilience.

The overall network is fairly strong in places but there are too many instances of trunk routes not being long enough with enforced changes at Sutton or Croydon or Kingston. The success of the X26 shows there is a definite demand for faster multiple centre services with better capacity. Why is there only the K5 offering a direct Morden to Kingston service? Surely a more direct service could be added?

I think there need to be some brand new infill routes to give more direct links in the hinterland west of Twickenham and Kingston given the relatively low frequencies on many other routes. These could help deal with access to health facilities as proposed by rgd976 the other day.

I don't think we need to drop bombs on the RATs or to stop the "Agony of Abellio" but TfL do need to work much harder with Surrey CC to see what can be done to remove the problems with the authority boundaries. There are obvious capacity upgrades with double decks needed and some are coming but not fast enough.

I'd like to see the few remaining 4xx, "S" and "K" routes which are not daily to be upgraded to give a 7 day a week service.

Comments welcome and feel free to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

[1] waves to Server King, the new Editor of the Daily Metro Mail Telegraph Sun.

[Deleted]

I live in Chessington and can tell you that the 71 and 65 are the only decent service around here. As a 7 days a week, fairly frequent bus service, the 465 can sometimes be a pain to wait for. Always turning up 10-15 minutes late or staying at bus stops for a really long time. K4 is also sometimes infrequent, but is my favourite route in the area so can't really say anything bad about it. As for Kingston, it may have 5 24hr route and 1 night bus route, but the links are quite poor. Eden Street is such a terrible place to wait for your bus at night. I think that the N87 could be extended back to Tolworth so their is no long waiting times for the 281. Also a night service for a route linking Kingston, Morden and Croydon is also needed. With all the people coming back home after work or parties etc we aren't properly listened to in terms of bus services. Useful bus services such as the N213 and N22 were withdrawn from Kingston but they should be bought back. The 281 has been doing well as a 24hr route since 2006 if it has lasted this long but I don't see how the public can be expected to use route 281 all the way to Fulwell for the N22 as it can waste time. What was wrong with the N77? It provided a decent service and didn't deserve to be withdrawn. Also it as well as the N22 and N213 provided proper direct links to the areas they travelled to, just likr the link was broken between Kingston, (direct link to Fulham Palace Road/Hammersmith/Kensington) and Trafalgar Square when route N9 was withdrawn, which is such a pain for me!!

[Deleted]

The New Addington - Chessington hasn't really got any demand and as you said it is covered by the 166 which is busy but I dont think it's so busy to have another route backing it but nonetheless good idea and I think that a direct route from Purley to Banstead is needed through and if I was to do something across that corridor I would increase the 166 so it is Monday -Sunday on all bits (Epsom - Croydon) and just have it at a normally frequency at either 15 or 20 or if to do a route covering N. Addington to West London maybe either Woodmansterene Lane or Little Woodmansterne Lane (A2022) making it more direct than the 166 and speaking of trunk routes Kingston,Sutton and Croydon a night route is needed in this corridor either N213 comes back or N726 and that replaces the 285 night service or what ever. And maybe either an increase in frequency on the X26 as not only a shuttle route to Heathrow Airport from South West London but also the only route linking Kingston and Croydon and the fact it's limited stop makes it appealing or a route duplicating that corridor however it will then duplicate the 407. Kingston in my opinion has good trunk routes but the further you go down south the worse it gets and a route down Portsmouth Road maybe tfl can do something with Abellio Surrey so when in tfl boundaries passengers can use Oyster Cards.

[snoggle]

Jun 8, 2015 17:30:44 GMT @aechha1 said:

I live in Chessington and can tell you that the 71 and 65 are the only decent service around here. As a 7 days a week, fairly frequent bus service, the 465 can sometimes be a pain to wait for. Always turning up 10-15 minutes late or staying at bus stops for a really long time. K4 is also sometimes infrequent, but is my favourite route in the area so can't really say anything bad about it. As for Kingston, it may have 5 24hr route and 1 night bus route, but the links are quite poor. Eden Street is such a terrible place to wait for your bus at night. I think that the N87 could be extended back to Tolworth so their is no long waiting times for the 281. Also a night service for a route linking Kingston, Morden and Croydon is also needed. With all the people coming back home after work or parties etc we aren't properly listened to in terms of bus services. Useful bus services such as the N213 and N22 were withdrawn from Kingston but they should be bought back. The 281 has been doing well as a 24hr route since 2006 if it has lasted this long but I don't see how the public can be expected to use route 281 all the way to Fulwell for the N22 as it can waste time. What was wrong with the N77? It provided a decent service and didn't deserve to be withdrawn. Also it as well as the N22 and N213 provided proper direct links to the areas they travelled to, just likr the link was broken between Kingston, (direct link to Fulham Palace Road/Hammersmith/Kensington) and Trafalgar Square when route N9 was withdrawn, which is such a pain for me!!

A guess is that the night routes that were pulled back were not especially reliable with a risk of curtailments meaning a poor service to Kingston. I also suspect that TfL felt that having duplicated night services near Kingston would be a waste of resources. Do you deprive people of the night 281 in order to retain the N22? I doubt there is enough demand between Fulwell and Kingston to justify 5 double deckers per hour at weekends or 4 per hour on weeknights.

[snowman]

I ought to comment on this, the network has become very focussed on places like Kingston, there seems to be an assumption that shopping is king, and if you don't want to go to shops you can change buses. It's not even possible to get to some of the local hospitals by bus.

To be fair the network is limited by 2 Royal Parks and the Thames. (Just try taking the bus around Richmond Park or Bushey Park if you don't beleive me). since Walton bridge was rebuilt I don't really know why some of the Sunbury routes weren't extended to Walton shops. I suspect more Sunbury residents will shop in Walton than Hounslow or Brentford Great Western Quarter. buses don't use Twickenham bridge either.

Would be a good start if the linked the Hospitals to areas and realise that places like Roehampton Hospital are virtually gone (why not a bus from Mortlake to Kingston hospital as an example). The network has gaps as station feeders for commuters, bus journeys not really serving any particular purpose or duplicated (why so many single deck routes between Twickenham and Richmond, none of which serve Twickenham station), now that lightweight double decks have been reinvented could cut 30% of the buses if it was to be double decked (the weight limit over Richmond Bridge is ok for some of the new designs)

Another overbused area is Norbiton-kingston-Surbiton which has about 40 buses per hour. Some of these would be better infilling the gaps in journey needs.

[Deleted]

Jun 8, 2015 17:56:33 GMT snoggle said:

Jun 8, 2015 17:30:44 GMT @aechha1 said:

I live in Chessington and can tell you that the 71 and 65 are the only decent service around here. As a 7 days a week, fairly frequent bus service, the 465 can sometimes be a pain to wait for. Always turning up 10-15 minutes late or staying at bus stops for a really long time. K4 is also sometimes infrequent, but is my favourite route in the area so can't really say anything bad about it. As for Kingston, it may have 5 24hr route and 1 night bus route, but the links are quite poor. Eden Street is such a terrible place to wait for your bus at night. I think that the N87 could be extended back to Tolworth so their is no long waiting times for the 281. Also a night service for a route linking Kingston, Morden and Croydon is also needed. With all the people coming back home after work or parties etc we aren't properly listened to in terms of bus services. Useful bus services such as the N213 and N22 were withdrawn from Kingston but they should be bought back. The 281 has been doing well as a 24hr route since 2006 if it has lasted this long but I don't see how the public can be expected to use route 281 all the way to Fulwell for the N22 as it can waste time. What was wrong with the N77? It provided a decent service and didn't deserve to be withdrawn. Also it as well as the N22 and N213 provided proper direct links to the areas they by PhraseFinder"> travelled to, just likr the link was broken between Kingston, (direct link to Fulham Palace Road/Hammersmith/Kensington) and Trafalgar Square when route N9 was withdrawn, which is such a pain for me!!

A guess is that the night routes that were pulled back were not especially reliable with a risk of curtailments meaning a poor service to Kingston. I also suspect that TfL felt that having duplicated night services near Kingston would be a waste of resources. Do you deprive people of the night 281 in by PhraseFinder"> order to retain the N22? I doubt there is enough demand between Fulwell and Kingston to justify 5 double deckers per hour at weekends or 4 per hour on weeknights.

But frequencies between Kingston and Fulwell could be reduced and direct links would not be lost.

[Deleted]

An excellent topic.

Surrey county council simply should not be responsible for the Kingston to Esher via Portsmouth Road routes. I have always thought a 218 between those points would work fine under TfL and provide the daily , but probably low frequency that section deserves.

The 71 is an excellent route and must be FW's most reliable. Abellio, like LU, have at times struggled with the K1 & K3. The new 218 as above would I think relieve some traffic from the K3.

Kingston was bypassed by the mainline instead serving Surbiton, leaving Kingston poorly served by rail. This perhaps explains the heavy loadings between these two close by towns. The 406/18 route changes addressed the need for quicker journey times into Kingston from Tolworth / Ewell.

Kingston Surbiton & Roehampton has a large fluctuating student population which affects bus travel.

Here are some ideas of mine in addition to the 218

N57 extended to Brixton, to link that area of night life to Kingston, ie for students.
465 controversial, but I would make the Kingston to Leatherhead section every 20 mins & hourly to Dorking ( x30m / x60min on sections eves & Sundays)
481 doubled in frequency, some useful direct links exist here , but passengers probably put off by low frequency. Evening & Sunday services introduced.
K6 Isleworth Busch Corner to Kingston Hospital via 267 , H20 to Twickenham Tesco, Rugby Rd, Whitton Rd, Twickenham, Cross Deep, Strawberry Vale, Ferry Lane, Broom Rd, Hampton Wick, Kingston Bridge, Town Centre, Richmond rd, Park Rd, Kings Ave, Queens Ave, Kingston Hospital, Norbiton Stn. Daily, x20 mins peaks & daytime Mon- Sat & x30 mins eves & Sunday
467 Summer Sunday service introduced between Chessington WofA & Epsom
281 Extended summer Sunday's non stop to Chessington WofA.

I'll have a think about Richmond area next...

[COBO]

One suggestion I would suggest is for the 267 should be extended from Fulwell to Hampton Court at all times to re link Hampton Court with Hammersmith.

[LX09FBJ]

Living in the 'boundary' of NW and SW London, means that I have experience of bus travel both areas.

There are many short routes and connections are generally good but there's a lack of long distance serivces. There are some long trunk routes (e.g. the remnants of the 37 between Putney and Peckham and the 57 between Streatham and Kingston) but many routes are round the corner services such as the K1 and K5.

The K5 is interesting case as its the only route to serve Morden from Kingston, a route possible by running via Martin Way, Beverley Way, Burlington Road, Kingston Road and London Road, which would be a reasonable distance and could run every 12 minutes, yet the K5 wiggles through the residential streets in New Malden and Motspur Park. SW London does have the issue of buses running between two points, but via a long winded route. A case in point is the 493, which goes via a very twisty turny route to Tooting. A more direct Richmond-Wandsworth-Tooting route could be useful, running via 337 to Wandsworth and on to Tooting via the 44, numbered 437.

A few round-the-corner links could be added to some routes for added connections, such as the 33 to Hampton, Nurserlyands running in an opposite loop to the R70, 131 to Balham, 152 and 200 to Kingston and 267 to Hampton Court.

Some routes are too inferquent for their patronage, such as the 216 which often ends up helping the hopelessly unreliable 111 when they turn at Hampton Court/Hampton Wick. The worst offender by a country mile is the 481, a route which runs on its own for much of its length yet runs hourly, Monday to Saturday and has its last journey at around 8pm. The frequency should be quadrupled at least to every 15 minutes, a Sunday service to be added (every 30 minutes) and gain a permenant allocation of long SDs. The PVR would be a reasonable 8-10 so it wouldn't be too much

I'd say the operations are more varied in this part of London as opposed to the north west, with Abellio competing with London United and to a certain degree Metroline in the west and with Go-Ahead, Quality Line and Arriva to the east of the area there's a wide range of operators. That said, the Putney area can be compared to the Ealing area in terms of 'dominance' for Go-Ahead with six garages serving the immediate area (A, AF, AL, PL, PM and SW) and with RATP in Kingston with five garages (AV, EB, FW, HH and TV) serving that area.

[6HP502C]

Jun 8, 2015 22:26:14 GMT @rgd976 said:

465 controversial, but I would make the Kingston to Leatherhead section every 20 mins & hourly to Dorking ( x30m / x60min on sections eves & Sundays)

I think Surrey CC subsidise the service through to Dorking at the current frequency levels.

[vjaska]

Living in a kind of half South West, half South East area and regularly traveling into South West London, I've a few ideas for this part of London:

57: Extend to Brixton via Brixton Hill. Divert the 255 via Streatham Hill, Streatham Place, Atkins Road, Kings Avenue, Thornton Road back onto the current route at Emmanuel Road. This is to create new links from south of Tooting to Brixton and would also bolster the 333 through Streatham as well as help just about all Brixton Hill routes which are extremely busy during rush hour. Patronage along Streatham Place & Atkins Road is rarely a lot and the 255 would cope easily enough.

131: Divert it to serve St. George's Hospital towards Tooting Broadway only. This is to provide a route from Colliers Wood & South Wimbledon that directly serves the hospital.

333: Extend it to St. George's Hospital via Garratt Lane, Fountain Road & Blackshaw Road. The 264 is cut back to Tooting Broadway. This is to provide a link from the hospital to the Mitcham Lane & Southcroft Road areas. The reason why the 264 is cut back is not only to make room for the 333 but also because Mitcham still has a link to the hospital via the 280 plus, from observations, the 264 doesn't carry many passengers to the hospital unlike the 155 or 280.

475: New route from New Malden to Richmond via the 131 to Kingston and the 65 to Richmond. This provides welcome relief to the 65 as it's an extremely busy route but one which seems to need help. It also provides a cross Kingston link linking Richmond & Ham with Kingston Hospital & New Malden.

495: New route from Sheen to Acton via the 33/337/493 to Richmond, the 65 to Ealing Broadway and the 207/427/607 to Acton. Like the above, it provides relief to the 65 and provides a cross Richmond link linking the Upper Richmond Road area with Kew, Brentford, Ealing & Acton. It also helps out the 33, 337 & 493 especially as the 33 can't use deckers on a full time basis and the 493 is unlikely to gain any deckers leaving the 337 to take the strain.

I agree with 'rgd976' that an N57 (or 24 hours under my idea) running from Brixton to Kingston would be very useful as well as a TfL service to Esher along Portsmouth Road - 85 & 371 seem the best candidates to me.

[M1104]

One of many things I've always liked about south west London buses are the various prototypes, demonstrators, history status and unique London specs with vehicles throughout the years:

* L1-3 from the 80s

* H1-3 from the 80s

* M1084-1105 with Cummin engines (M1104 initially having a wrap around ad between decks for the L10 unit...as well as being supped up with extra power)

* M1441/2 being the first mark2 London Metrobuses with Gardner and Cummin engines respectively

* Connex's TA1-20/22-38 with uprated euro2 engines, baring in mind London United had TA202 with the same engine specs

* Connex's TA39-128/129 with uprated euro3 engines...also being I believe the first batch of London buses in service with the new reg format that starts from 51 plate

* short lived Capital logistic with their low floor DB250 chassied Optare Spectras with higher rated engines...though I never really noticed the power until some later went to the 13

* E1-14 I believe being the first euro4 engine Enviro400s in UK service

* 8501-6 being the first E200s in London service

* WDL1, the only DB300 in Go Ahead London, baring in mind it wasn't always used on south west London routes such as the 40 and 68

* DB250 chassied Geminis, which are sadly diminishing in the SW and slightly growing north of the river.

* Retrofitted euro4 engine B7TLs which dominate SW London

...and loads more that I've missed out.


South West London also had the pleasure (yet sad event) of having the last main Routemaster route in London, with the 159 bus finishing in Streatham. Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but in the closing scene of On the Buses series (the series without Arthur) I believe there's a scene where the bus is approaching the Rose Hill roundabout. Sticking to tv there was one episode of The Bill where the police were inside Merton Bus Garage....probably then called Sun Hill bus garage. lol

SW London was also the last to have in regular service the B20 DMS as well as this part of London having Q providing float for the night bus network....which I believe at one time covered any night route in London (nowadays confined to GAL routes).

[maximus23]

. A case in point is the 493, which goes via a very twisty turny route to Tooting. A more direct Richmond-Wandsworth-Tooting route could be useful, running via 337 to Wandsworth and on to Tooting via the 44, numbered 437.

I think the 493 is fine as it is despite traffic issues in the peaks, but an easy solution would just be to divert the 270 at Wandsworth to run straight to Richmond via route 337 as it would still serve Putney and there would be no need to create a whole new route.

[vjaska]

Jun 9, 2015 19:02:03 GMT maximus23 said:

. A case in point is the 493, which goes via a very twisty turny route to Tooting. A more direct Richmond-Wandsworth-Tooting route could be useful, running via 337 to Wandsworth and on to Tooting via the 44, numbered 437.

I think the 493 is fine as it is despite traffic issues in the peaks, but an easy solution would just be to divert the 270 at Wandsworth to run straight to Richmond via route 337 as it would still serve Putney and there would be no need to create a whole new route.

So what happens to Earlsfield & Tooting's link to Putney Bridge then?

[Deleted]

London & Country ran a route 440 from Stanies to Kingston via Ashford, Sunbury, Hanworth, then via R70 to Hampton Hill, then R68 to Hampton Court and onto Kingston. It was very well used despite them withdrawing it after about two years. If brought back, it provides some useful school links plus shopping links as well as serving the edge of Kempton Park. Would also help the 216. Would have to be re numbered obviously.

Agree with the 267 back to Hampton court. With that I would extend the R68 to Esher . Esher college is hidden away just near the Scilly Isles roundabout with a catchment area serving the Hamptons. Traffic may cause an issue here though.

So in Esher, with the K3 and the 218 terminating, the K3 could run to Lower Green daily , the 218 could turn at Esher Station and the R68 stand where the K3 does now.

New route 311 could run Terminal 5 to Twickenham Albany via The 423 to Harlington Corner, 111 to Heston Library, H32 to Hounslow West, H28 to Hanworth Road, 110 to Twickenham.