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Post by buspete on Jun 14, 2024 21:30:45 GMT
Thanks. I get no pressure at Horsham, however trains still take an hour to get from Chichester to Gatwick which is soooooo slow. If there was a separate Bognor/Chichester train it could be possible to run a 15 minute service to Horsham/Barnham? As a few posters have said the Gatwick Express is from a bygone era and if not many people use it - there is no point keeping it or alternatively still keep the brand but make the service relevant to today by not just having a Gatwick - Victoria service when the other part comes back, if it does. I’ve just had a look at the off peak fares; Gatwick to London Victoria (Gatwick Express) £23 Gatwick to London Victoria (Southern) £20.40 Brighton to London Victoria (Gatwick Express) £23.90 (£35.20 return) Gatwick to London Bridge (Thameslink) £13.80 Brighton to London Bridge (Thameslink) £22.60 With an Adult Oyster the off peak fares to Victoria and London Bridge is £10.10 Okay, thanks for that I would not know. So that would be a Gatwick Express fare then? Is it a single or return? If what you say is true and I don’t doubt you, it just shows how much a rip off the Gatwick Express is then? I mean it is cheaper to travel from a station further down the line, that can’t be right?
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Post by PGAT on Jun 14, 2024 21:37:45 GMT
It is a single fare indeed but I believe for Gatwick Express they make the Oyster fare higher if you tap out through the Platform 13/14 gatelines at Victoria although I don't really know or understand any more details.
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Post by buspete on Jun 14, 2024 22:00:57 GMT
Thanks for that^^^^^ so it is still a rip off, tourists are tech savvy with social media, hence why the Gatwick Express is lightly used.
Seems a better solution would be to axe the Horsham service and run it instead all day to East Grinstead. To replace the Horsham service you could run the Bognor Regis and Chichester trains 4tph and not have a timely split at Horsham.
It also seems pointless terminating a service at East Croydon.
The whole area could do with another review, based on usage.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2024 22:22:33 GMT
Thanks for that^^^^^ so it is still a rip off, tourists are tech savvy with social media, hence why the Gatwick Express is lightly used. Seems a better solution would be to axe the Horsham service and run it instead all day to East Grinstead. To replace the Horsham service you could run the Bognor Regis and Chichester trains 4tph and not have a timely split at Horsham. It also seems pointless terminating a service at East Croydon. The whole area could do with another review, based on usage. Not only pointless but it restricts what can access Platform 5 at East Croydon. The via Tulse Hill service really should be extended back to Caterham from East Croydon
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Post by PGAT on Jun 14, 2024 22:54:36 GMT
Thanks for that^^^^^ so it is still a rip off, tourists are tech savvy with social media, hence why the Gatwick Express is lightly used. Seems a better solution would be to axe the Horsham service and run it instead all day to East Grinstead. To replace the Horsham service you could run the Bognor Regis and Chichester trains 4tph and not have a timely split at Horsham. It also seems pointless terminating a service at East Croydon. The whole area could do with another review, based on usage. Not only pointless but it restricts what can access Platform 5 at East Croydon. The via Tulse Hill service really should be extended back to Caterham from East Croydon Caterham trains already carry fresh air, why would a doubling in frequency be justified? If capacity at East Croydon is really that much of an issue then it could simply be extended to South Croydon.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 15, 2024 2:12:36 GMT
Not only pointless but it restricts what can access Platform 5 at East Croydon. The via Tulse Hill service really should be extended back to Caterham from East Croydon Caterham trains already carry fresh air, why would a doubling in frequency be justified? If capacity at East Croydon is really that much of an issue then it could simply be extended to South Croydon. It's not just capacity, a direct link to Purley at the very least should be reinstated. The Caterham trains prior to the 455's being withdrawn wern't carrying fresh air so maybe it should be looked into why this is now an issue
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Post by greenboy on Jun 15, 2024 7:54:14 GMT
"Express" does not have to mean "Non-stop". It means different things to different people but implies a fast(er) service. Heathrow Express makes no intermediate calls but neither does it have an obvioius interchange unserved - yet. What happens when Old Oak Common opens remains to be seen. The journey times is also much shorter than on Gatwick or Stansted Express services. Go to Australia - as I did for some years - and "express" simply means "not stopping at" so for example a suburban train which might have a journey time of above an hour and stops at almost everywhere will be announced as "Running Express from A to B" if it skips just one station out of perhaps 20. I see no problem at all in retaining the "Gatwick Express" branding with a stop at Clapham Junction included. It works on the current timetable too. Leave Victoria 2 minutes earlier than now (a pathway already available), allow an extra 3 minutes made up, notionally, of 90 seconds to brake and accelerate and 90 seconds station dwell and run 1 minutes later thence to Gatwick. It works on the Up as well; the GatEx has a small window ahead and behind it with nothing scheduled so could be stopped at Clapham and arrive at Victoria 2 - 3 minutes later than currently. Those who want to argue the point might wish to remind themselves that these trains also call at Haywards Heath meaning they are not non-stop between Gatwick and Brighton either. I strongly disagree here due to the context of the scenario. "Express" might not always mean "non-stop" but in this case the "express" service only skips out on one station. The time saving isn't even that great either, since Platform 1 at East Croydon has a 30mph limit and there is frequently congestion at Windmill Bridge Jn so in the other direction the train crawls past Selhurst waiting for its slot. The Gatwick Express branding is already on thin ice - it already has a horrible reputation domestically for essentially being a rip-off and they're the first services to go during the event of disruption, a strike or even the COVID emergency timetable. At least by being non-stop it gave the illusion that the service was much faster than the alternatives to tourists who are not savvy with the network. Now, there's no excuse. The "trouble" is that Gatwick Airport is on a mainline and already sees ample express trains already. Great if you are GTR/DfT, not so great if you're a fan of using rolling stock efficiently. Re the Gatwick to Brighton bit, the stop at Haywards Heath doesn't matter because it does not make money off of gullible tourists but rather monopolises the only direct service from Victoria to Brighton. I agree that the word 'Express' is misleading and the Gatwick Express really has little purpose now and the premium fare really is outragous, the similar Luton Airport Express from St Pancras, which continues to Corby, doesn't charge a premium fare.
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Post by buspete on Jun 15, 2024 10:17:04 GMT
And the Luton Express was just a rebranded train service that already existed, nothing wrong with doing that and good it doesn’t charge a premium.
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Post by rif153 on Jun 15, 2024 10:43:31 GMT
The Caterham & Tattenham Corner services do feel like a waste of valuable paths through Windmill Bridge, I wonder if you could reduce these services to shuttles to Purley off-peak which connect with other London services there. The Tattenham portion of these services loads especially poorly, whilst some stations on the Caterham line are very close to ones on the Oxted line. Once you free up a pair of paths through that bottleneck, you can then reallocate these to either East Grinstead or Reigate services, both of which cause issues as they need to cross over to the fasts before Selhurst. I think the current situation with the Reigates is a disaster and you'd be better off running 8-car Southern services from Gatwick to London Bridge via the Redhill line, with connecting shuttles from Reigate. This would hopefully only be an interim measure until the whole Selhurst triangle is remodelled with grade separated crossings. The current timetable on the slows is a total mess, with departures from East Croydon to Purley really poorly spaced out. I agree with vjaska that the East Croydon via Tulse Hill services need to be re-extended further south, the lack of local north-south connections through East Croydon is really frustrating. The new West Coastway timetable is young and needs to be given time to bed in before it can be asssesed, but in the long term I would support getting rid of the splitting and attaching at Horsham to run separate trains, there's a discussion to be had on whether this could entail reinstating services via Redhill.
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Post by buspete on Jun 15, 2024 11:45:02 GMT
As I suggest earlier that if you had a 15 minute service on the Arun Valley Line with alternative Bognor Regis and Chichester trains. Thereby not needing to split trains at Horsham.
Then if the Thameslink Horsham service is run to East Grinstead instead, as an earlier poster suggested.
Then the London Bridge - East Croydon train extended to Horsham replacing the Thameslink service and thereby stopping at the small stations between Three Bridges and Horsham.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 15, 2024 13:04:24 GMT
The Caterham & Tattenham Corner services do feel like a waste of valuable paths through Windmill Bridge, I wonder if you could reduce these services to shuttles to Purley off-peak which connect with other London services there. The Tattenham portion of these services loads especially poorly, whilst some stations on the Caterham line are very close to ones on the Oxted line. Once you free up a pair of paths through that bottleneck, you can then reallocate these to either East Grinstead or Reigate services, both of which cause issues as they need to cross over to the fasts before Selhurst. I think the current situation with the Reigates is a disaster and you'd be better off running 8-car Southern services from Gatwick to London Bridge via the Redhill line, with connecting shuttles from Reigate. This would hopefully only be an interim measure until the whole Selhurst triangle is remodelled with grade separated crossings. The current timetable on the slows is a total mess, with departures from East Croydon to Purley really poorly spaced out. I agree with vjaska that the East Croydon via Tulse Hill services need to be re-extended further south, the lack of local north-south connections through East Croydon is really frustrating. The new West Coastway timetable is young and needs to be given time to bed in before it can be asssesed, but in the long term I would support getting rid of the splitting and attaching at Horsham to run separate trains, there's a discussion to be had on whether this could entail reinstating services via Redhill. Just to be clear is this what you’re suggesting? 2tph: Purley-Caterham 2tph: Purley-Tattenham Corner 2tph: Reigate-Redhill 2tph: Gatwick Airport-London Bridge (via Redhill) 4tph: East Grinstead-London Victoria 2tph: London Bridge-? (via Norbury) I’m not too sure this is a great idea. For the Gatwick to London Bridge idea I feel like that service would be completely overwhelmed. Ignoring the issues of passengers being unsatisfied with an extra change, cramming Reigate passengers with Caterham/Tattenham Corner passengers on one train that separately ran as two independent services (and that has extra passengers from Gatwick as well) will only worsen overcrowding. Not to mention the Redhill line has 6tph to London Bridge but NONE to Victoria so an extra change at East Croydon is necessitated. Now there’s also a missing path on the slow lines between East Croydon and Purley which isn’t being filled, you can’t send a Victoria service to Coulsdon Town or Caterham or Tattenham Corner because that simply defeats the purpose of what you’re suggesting so it will probably be carrying fresh air to East Grinstead instead. Same with the London Bridge to East Croydon stopper, where will you send it?
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 15, 2024 15:40:13 GMT
The suggestions made above ignore the practical realities of junction and station platform capacity. Timing trains to provide nice connections simply does not always work. Passengers almost always prefer a direct train to a change; any change introduces uncertainty, unreliability and a potential for delay if missed.
I would cut back the Thameslink services south of Three Bridges retaining the stoppers. The fasts would still need to go to Three Bridges for the depot and crewing purposes rather than any commercial need but otherwise can function as fast Gatwick - London Bridge - North of London services for those passengers who need such a service.
Caterham / Tattenham Corner services need to be direct to a London terminus all day; there is not capacity on other services to accommodate those passengers and there is not the platform capacity at Purley to have four shuttles an hour turn back there reliably. Forcing a change at Purley also forces a change of platform if the branch side is used by the shuttles.
East Grinstead does not support two trains an hour off-peak currently and is lucky to have such a service; it was cut to hourly for some time after Covid recovery and had been hourly for many years until electrification arrived.
The junction layout at Windmill Bridge was designed to untangle the previous knot of lines which caused delays as the timetables changed and more / differently-routed services were offered. There has been an ambitious and costly plan to redesign the entire Croydon - Norwood - Selhurst area yet again but which has now been shelved at least in its original form. The passenger growth pre-Covid which drove that desire has evaporated meaning that whilst congested at times and always busy the area can cope with the current service and passenger numbers.
It would certainly help to have a couple of tweaks made to ease pathing but robbing Peter to pay Paul ultimately helps no-one. The layout lends itself towards slower trains coming from the south being directed towards London Bridge and faster ones towards Victoria but there is always demand for the opposite moves. Peak-time coastal services to and from London Bridge are almost a thing of the past now. Thameslink provides the Brighton services; the one-time four trains from London Bridge to Littlehampton via Hove each evening is now just a single train on four evening s a week (not Fridays) reflecting current trends. That too had been a Thameslink operation but was difficult to resource (one unit once a day on that route requiring berthing at Southern's Littlehampton depot) and was quite full when it arrived from Bedford via Farringdon leaving those waiting at London Bridge with a standing-roonm only train until mid-Sussex. That wasn't popular at all.
The Uckfield service already links the Oxted route to London Bridge hourly; there is no reason for the East Grinstead service to also go that way.
So my approach would be to keep the Caterham / Tattenham Corner service on the "east side" using the slow lines and through to London Bridge ideally via the fast lines through Forest Hill rather than all stations via Tulse Hill. Keep the Victoria services on the "western side" namely the Brighton / Arun Valley / Coastway services, and the East Grinstead service similar to its present operation on the slow lines between South Croydon and Selhurst or even all the way in subject to pathing - but not stopping other than at Clapham Junction.
Thameslink services which need to access London Bridge can come via Redhill, non-stopping on the through roads for the fasts, and stay on the slow lines north of Stoats Nest. If they have to go via Tulse Hill they can turn right at Streatham Common.
Intermediate stations Selhurst - Wandsworth Common are already provided with stopping services to Victoria which don't need to change. The absence of a direct Victoria - East Croydon stopper might be addressed with an additional service if there is a clear demand for such. For local trips into the centre West Croydon is more convenient and has an existing service from Victoria; East Croydon would be largely for interchange purposes.
The intention for Tonbridge - Redhill services is that they return to Gatwick in 2025 or 2026 rather than the very quiet Reigate. Southern Victoria - Reigate services largely exist beyond Redhill for route knowledge and the appeasement of a vocal minority in conservative (small C) Reigate who feel they deserve a through train to London but who mostly don't actually use it. With GWR running twice an hour over that route and connections at Redhill this service could be extended south to Horsham serving all stations in lieu of a Thameslink stopper thereby returning a direct service to the West End for all the smaller stations which currently lack one.
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Post by rif153 on Jun 15, 2024 17:37:34 GMT
The Caterham & Tattenham Corner services do feel like a waste of valuable paths through Windmill Bridge, I wonder if you could reduce these services to shuttles to Purley off-peak which connect with other London services there. The Tattenham portion of these services loads especially poorly, whilst some stations on the Caterham line are very close to ones on the Oxted line. Once you free up a pair of paths through that bottleneck, you can then reallocate these to either East Grinstead or Reigate services, both of which cause issues as they need to cross over to the fasts before Selhurst. I think the current situation with the Reigates is a disaster and you'd be better off running 8-car Southern services from Gatwick to London Bridge via the Redhill line, with connecting shuttles from Reigate. This would hopefully only be an interim measure until the whole Selhurst triangle is remodelled with grade separated crossings. The current timetable on the slows is a total mess, with departures from East Croydon to Purley really poorly spaced out. I agree with vjaska that the East Croydon via Tulse Hill services need to be re-extended further south, the lack of local north-south connections through East Croydon is really frustrating. The new West Coastway timetable is young and needs to be given time to bed in before it can be asssesed, but in the long term I would support getting rid of the splitting and attaching at Horsham to run separate trains, there's a discussion to be had on whether this could entail reinstating services via Redhill. Just to be clear is this what you’re suggesting? 2tph: Purley-Caterham 2tph: Purley-Tattenham Corner 2tph: Reigate-Redhill 2tph: Gatwick Airport-London Bridge (via Redhill) 4tph: East Grinstead-London Victoria 2tph: London Bridge-? (via Norbury) I’m not too sure this is a great idea. For the Gatwick to London Bridge idea I feel like that service would be completely overwhelmed. Ignoring the issues of passengers being unsatisfied with an extra change, cramming Reigate passengers with Caterham/Tattenham Corner passengers on one train that separately ran as two independent services (and that has extra passengers from Gatwick as well) will only worsen overcrowding. Not to mention the Redhill line has 6tph to London Bridge but NONE to Victoria so an extra change at East Croydon is necessitated. Now there’s also a missing path on the slow lines between East Croydon and Purley which isn’t being filled, you can’t send a Victoria service to Coulsdon Town or Caterham or Tattenham Corner because that simply defeats the purpose of what you’re suggesting so it will probably be carrying fresh air to East Grinstead instead. Same with the London Bridge to East Croydon stopper, where will you send it? I was looking at how to address current problems until the Selhurst triangle recieves its long overdue remodelling. I wouldn't increase the East Grinstead service to 4tph, there's no need to do that. The current situation with the Reigate services is totally unfit for purpose; trains are too short, conflicting move at Selhurst, tight headways on the down behind the Arun Valley services and infront of the CAT/TAT services. Thus if one of East Grinstead or Redhill lose their services to Redhill, you reduce the number of services crossing from the fast to slows at Selhurst all day. The CAT/TAT servvices are lightly outside the peaks and not a good use of limited paths through Windmill Bridge. In the long term, once the Selhurst triangle is remodellled, you can restore Redhill-Victoria direct services or alternatively I was suggesting doing away with boosting Arun Valley services to 4tph and doing away with the all day splitting/attaching at Horsham. Perhaps on reflection a better service pattern would be as follows: 2tph Victoria-Tattenham Corner (all stations) 2tph London Bridge-Caterham via Tulse Hill 2tph Reigate-Tonbridge via Redhill 2tph Gatwick Airport-London Bridge via Redhill (all stations south of East Croydon except South Croydon and Purley Oaks) 2tph Victoria-Caterham/Tattenham Corner (peak only)
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Post by buspete on Jun 22, 2024 11:19:19 GMT
I am just about to travel on the Arun Valley Line, to catch some theatre in Chichester.
Anyway it was me who introduced the subject of Gatwick Exprees and it provoked many thoughtful and considered replies.
The board seems to agree that Gatwick Express trains should call additionally at Clapham Junction, but not East Croydon.
There is no value in terminating the London Bridge - East Croydon train at East Croydon.
The Arun Line should continue as it does now, with trains splitting at Horsham.
So when the 2 extra trains per hour on the Gatwick Express gets re-introduced should they just run the Victoria - Gatwick shuttle and terminate at Gatwick?
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Post by PGAT on Jun 22, 2024 13:22:02 GMT
I am just about to travel on the Arun Valley Line, to catch some theatre in Chichester. Anyway it was me who introduced the subject of Gatwick Exprees and it provoked many thoughtful and considered replies. The board seems to agree that Gatwick Express trains should call additionally at Clapham Junction, but not East Croydon. There is no value in terminating the London Bridge - East Croydon train at East Croydon. The Arun Line should continue as it does now, with trains splitting at Horsham. So when the 2 extra trains per hour on the Gatwick Express gets re-introduced should they just run the Victoria - Gatwick shuttle and terminate at Gatwick? Where else would the Gatwick shuttle go, *if* it were to come back?
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