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Post by snoggle on Nov 13, 2015 12:37:53 GMT
That maybe true but the withdrawal of the 436 north of Vauxhall adds pressure to the 2 & 36 so if looked at that way, it's not the least worst option. However the section north of Vauxhall is covered by the tube. Vauxhall to Victoria has the Victoria Line following the route for starters of which relieves Route 2. Take the 185 away from Victoria and Camberwell Green will have more people waiting for the 36/436 with passengers from East Dulwich, it'll also add more pressure on the 176 between Camberwell and Forest Hill. Diverting the 185 to Battersea Park benefits nobody, but inconveniences a lot more passengers who live in Dulwich/Forest Hill than those who live in Peckham. Conversely you can argue there is no *direct* tube service from Vauxhall to beyond Victoria. HPC, Marble Arch, Edgware Road, Paddington all require a change at stations that are heaving full of people in the rush hour and busy off peak. The fundamental problem is that all of the routes that come into scope for "hacking about" are busy and will have elements of shared ridership over common sections plus other elements of unique ridership depending on origin and destination. No matter which one you hack around with you're going to force people to change bus or transfer to the tube or use another service which may already be very busy. I wish TfL had published some supporting detail, as they did for New Addington, which would help answer issues around overcrowding / spare capacity etc. We're all arguing in a factual vacuum and left to speculate based on our own knowledge and observations.
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Post by rmz19 on Nov 13, 2015 13:09:48 GMT
The 436 appears to be the least worst option in comparison to the 185 which would have seen Denmark Hill, East Dulwich, Forest Hill and Catford lose their direct bus service to Victoria, where as the 436 only a small section between New Cross Gate and Lewisham would lose their direct service as the rest of the route is covered by the 36. I would say the 185 was the least worst option, I can't imagine many people travel on it from Catford to Victoria because it is so indirect and the other points on the route have alternative bus routes into Central London. The best option I think would be to leave things as they are and just reroute the 452 to Camberwell Green or Herne Hill with a modest reduction on the 36 from 10 to 8bph in line with the 436, in fact I've never understood why the 36 is more frequent than the 436, ideally they should both should have the same frequency but if anything the 436 should be more frequent as the Lewisham end is far busier than the Queens Park section. I agree with you regarding the 36/436 frequencies, It would be sensible to reduce the frequency of the 36 to x7-8 mins and increase the 436's to x6-7 mins, in essence swap frequencies to supply sufficient demand across both routes.
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Post by danorak on Nov 13, 2015 13:55:44 GMT
As others have said, I think diverting the 185 wouldn't work as it would break too many links - at least this change only breaks the link east of New Cross. I'm still not keen on this proposal although I can see the value in providing a cross-Vauxhall link on this axis. Could the 156 be extended instead to say Camberwell or Peckham?
On reflection, I can see that the 36/436 corridor needs a bit of tweaking but I would have said the core was the Paddington to Lewisham bit (ie the 436). What is demand like from Queens Park? Victoria or Vauxhall has always looked the natural place to end this leg but I assume that's not what the data says.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 13, 2015 14:12:13 GMT
That maybe true but the withdrawal of the 436 north of Vauxhall adds pressure to the 2 & 36 so if looked at that way, it's not the least worst option. However the section north of Vauxhall is covered by the tube. Vauxhall to Victoria has the Victoria Line following the route for starters of which relieves Route 2. Take the 185 away from Victoria and Camberwell Green will have more people waiting for the 36/436 with passengers from East Dulwich, it'll also add more pressure on the 176 between Camberwell and Forest Hill. Diverting the 185 to Battersea Park benefits nobody, but inconveniences a lot more passengers who live in Dulwich/Forest Hill than those who live in Peckham. I'm not advocating that the 185 should be diverted (I'd prefer if neither the 185 or 436 were touched at all) but I believe it to be marginally a better choice than the 436. Vauxhall to Victoria is of course covered by the Victoria Line but it's capacity is used up. Also good luck getting a train in the peaks when they leave Brixton & Victoria full up, especially the latter.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 13, 2015 14:18:18 GMT
As others have said, I think diverting the 185 wouldn't work as it would break too many links - at least this change only breaks the link east of New Cross. I'm still not keen on this proposal although I can see the value in providing a cross-Vauxhall link on this axis. Could the 156 be extended instead to say Camberwell or Peckham? On reflection, I can see that the 36/436 corridor needs a bit of tweaking but I would have said the core was the Paddington to Lewisham bit (ie the 436). What is demand like from Queens Park? Victoria or Vauxhall has always looked the natural place to end this leg but I assume that's not what the data says. The 156 most certainly could work if extended to Peckham as stand space at Camberwell is pretty well used up. The 156 could take the 136's place at Peckham Bus Station which gives the link TfL want without causing harm to the 436 or putting extra pressure on the 2, 36 & to a lesser extent, 185. 36's leave Queens Park with decent loads on but certainly by no means busier than a 436 leaving Lewisham.
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 13, 2015 14:38:04 GMT
However the section north of Vauxhall is covered by the tube. Vauxhall to Victoria has the Victoria Line following the route for starters of which relieves Route 2. Take the 185 away from Victoria and Camberwell Green will have more people waiting for the 36/436 with passengers from East Dulwich, it'll also add more pressure on the 176 between Camberwell and Forest Hill. Diverting the 185 to Battersea Park benefits nobody, but inconveniences a lot more passengers who live in Dulwich/Forest Hill than those who live in Peckham. I'm not advocating that the 185 should be diverted (I'd prefer if neither the 185 or 436 were touched at all) but I believe it to be marginally a better choice than the 436. Vauxhall to Victoria is of course covered by the Victoria Line but it's capacity is used up. Also good luck getting a train in the peaks when they leave Brixton & Victoria full up, especially the latter. Not forgetting at one time there were 4 routes between Camberwell & Vauxhall/Victoria i.e. 36/36A/36B and the 185. I wonder what the passenger traffic is like now compared to those days?
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2015 15:15:43 GMT
However the section north of Vauxhall is covered by the tube. Vauxhall to Victoria has the Victoria Line following the route for starters of which relieves Route 2. Take the 185 away from Victoria and Camberwell Green will have more people waiting for the 36/436 with passengers from East Dulwich, it'll also add more pressure on the 176 between Camberwell and Forest Hill. Diverting the 185 to Battersea Park benefits nobody, but inconveniences a lot more passengers who live in Dulwich/Forest Hill than those who live in Peckham. I'm not advocating that the 185 should be diverted (I'd prefer if neither the 185 or 436 were touched at all) but I believe it to be marginally a better choice than the 436. Vauxhall to Victoria is of course covered by the Victoria Line but it's capacity is used up. Also good luck getting a train in the peaks when they leave Brixton & Victoria full up, especially the latter. That's the crux of it, whatever improvements are made to the Victoria Line it can only accommodate so many trains per hour and as you say they are often near full when they leave Brixton in the morning peak and then there are also SWT passengers joining at Vauxhall, if the 436's are turfing off more passengers there I would expect big queues to get into the station. The more I think about this idea the crazier it seems, even worse than the Finchley Road idea
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 13, 2015 15:18:54 GMT
As others have said, I think diverting the 185 wouldn't work as it would break too many links - at least this change only breaks the link east of New Cross. I'm still not keen on this proposal although I can see the value in providing a cross-Vauxhall link on this axis. Could the 156 be extended instead to say Camberwell or Peckham? On reflection, I can see that the 36/436 corridor needs a bit of tweaking but I would have said the core was the Paddington to Lewisham bit (ie the 436). What is demand like from Queens Park? Victoria or Vauxhall has always looked the natural place to end this leg but I assume that's not what the data says. If the 436 does go to Battersea Park, another option could be to tweak the 185 to every 7 mins during the peaks in one direction only. This was a solution offered for the 176 capacity issues during the peaks. This does the trick of increasing capacity (again) along the Forest Hill to Denmark Hill corridor and adding capacity lost from the 436 between Vauxhall and Victoria.
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Post by LX09FBJ on Nov 13, 2015 17:06:15 GMT
Would an extension of the 136 via the 196 to Vauxhall and then 156 to Battersea be a viable option? I know it's already fairly long and has recently had a hefty extension to it but this would allow a link with Battersea and Lewisham to exist as well as keeping the 36/436 as they are. Excluding space issues, the route would have a PVR of approximately 25-26.
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Post by rmz19 on Nov 13, 2015 17:40:45 GMT
As others have said, I think diverting the 185 wouldn't work as it would break too many links - at least this change only breaks the link east of New Cross. I'm still not keen on this proposal although I can see the value in providing a cross-Vauxhall link on this axis. Could the 156 be extended instead to say Camberwell or Peckham? On reflection, I can see that the 36/436 corridor needs a bit of tweaking but I would have said the core was the Paddington to Lewisham bit (ie the 436). What is demand like from Queens Park? Victoria or Vauxhall has always looked the natural place to end this leg but I assume that's not what the data says. There is plenty of demand to and from Queen's Park, especially in the Bayswater/Harrow Road area. However the 36's current frequency is a bit high for the route's western section so the sensible thing is to reduce it and curtail it to Peckham. Extending the 156 is questionable, while it provides a more direct alternative to the 345 to Battersea it would also overbus the Camberwell Green - Vauxhall section and wouldn't be a South London cross route. Another route that could cover the extension would be the 484, its lower frequency and capacity wouldn't add much to the common section in comparison to the 156, albeit it wouldn't seem like an ideal cross route either. Diverting the 185 may break the valueable Victoria link but if this ridiculous proposal is being prioritised then the 185 or even 484 seem like the more sensible choices. On the other hand, if I had a choice I wouldn't choose any of them and scrap this proposal leaving everything as they are with the exceptions of tweaking the 36/436 frequencies and curtailing the 36 to Peckham.
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Post by northken on Nov 14, 2015 11:04:44 GMT
From my experiences at Paddington, the 436 loads very well indeed. If it were to be removed then to aid the 36 (and 2) the 7 could be sent down to Victoria. It has hybrids and roughly the same frequency, and is an excuse to get rid of another route from Oxford Street.
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Post by M1104 on Nov 14, 2015 12:57:33 GMT
Rather than terminating the 436 at Battersea Park TfL could re-route it further over Chelsea Bridge and via Ebury Bridge Road into Victoria. This way Lewisham Way still maintains a bus link with Central London* along with the new Nine Elms connection and the 436 would also pass outside Victoria Coach Station.
* - obviously with increased journey time needed
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Post by Nathan on Nov 14, 2015 14:34:54 GMT
Rather than terminating the 436 at Battersea Park TfL could re-route it further over Chelsea Bridge and via Ebury Bridge Road into Victoria. This way Lewisham Way still maintains a bus link with Central London* along with the new Nine Elms connection and the 436 would also pass outside Victoria Coach Station. * - obviously with increased journey time needed This alternative makes a lot more sense. It wouldn't make the route too long I imagine, but traffic around the Battersea Park area might screw up the service. I suppose with the right frequency, it might cope.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 4, 2016 17:55:47 GMT
Consultation response submitted ....... which TfL will duly ignore.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 4, 2016 18:09:01 GMT
I'd forgotten about this proposal. I can see this one going ahead as unlike the 13 which everybody threw their weight behind so not to loose a classic route number that's historically served the area, the 436 is a more recent route that most probably still think is the 36 anyway.
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