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Post by YY13VKP on Jan 3, 2016 15:03:35 GMT
The 166 and 293 also go out of London into Epsom (The 166 used to have all journeys go into Epsom when i was little, but since fairly recently, one bus an hour goes to Epsom, the rest to Banstead). The full 166 service has never gone to Epsom, ever since it was extended from Chipstead Valley to Banstead it has been hourly beyond there to Epsom with no evening or Sunday service I remember that when I was young, whenever I saw a DPP on the 166 (the R Reg Darts that were replaced in 03), they all went to Epsom General Hospital, so they may have changed it since then
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2016 15:12:45 GMT
The full 166 service has never gone to Epsom, ever since it was extended from Chipstead Valley to Banstead it has been hourly beyond there to Epsom with no evening or Sunday service I remember that when I was young, whenever I saw a DPP on the 166 (the R Reg Darts that were replaced in 03), they all went to Epsom General Hospital, so they may have changed it since then The 166's R reg Darts were replaced in 2006 following the 319's conversion from DWL to DLA - I know that as I used to see those Darts on the 166 & 312 when at Croydon College and I didn't start there until 2005. Epsom General Hospital was only served from 2001 as previously, buses went to Langley Vale. The Banstead terminus was introduced in 2003.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 15:26:21 GMT
Knew this one was coming for ages! Loads of talk about this recently. Another unjustified plan but part of a wider scale of things to come..
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Post by MoEnviro on Jan 3, 2016 15:50:02 GMT
Wasn't there a similar story from Dartford Council recently about cutting the TFL routes that go down to Dartford and Bluewater? My other question is how much say do the operators have in this situation, e.g. if they still wanted to run the route in its current form but convert it to a commercial route.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 3, 2016 15:59:07 GMT
Wasn't there a similar story from Dartford Council recently about cutting the TFL routes that go down to Dartford and Bluewater? My other question is how much say do the operators have in this situation, e.g. if they still wanted to run the route in its current form but convert it to a commercial route. Dartford Council won't have a say in that : it's a Kent CC responsibility. Haven't heard anything in the local press, but in the current climate, who knows what lays around the corner?
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Post by snoggle on Jan 3, 2016 16:00:46 GMT
Wasn't there a similar story from Dartford Council recently about cutting the TFL routes that go down to Dartford and Bluewater? My other question is how much say do the operators have in this situation, e.g. if they still wanted to run the route in its current form but convert it to a commercial route. Dartford to Bluewater is, of course, rather different because TfL routes run alongside commercial services in a number of cases. I suspect that if TfL routes were pulled off then Arriva KT would bolster their commercial network in part replacement. They'd be positively drooling at the prospect of all those route 96 passengers being kicked off in Dartford and having to pay a nice commercial fare onwards to Bluewater. I can't see Stagecoach wanting to try to run a commercial Dartford to Bluewater route given the issues around the use of Fastrack bus lanes and Arriva's dominant position in the area. I can't see there being any scope for a hybrid tendered / commercial service where TfL are the main funder / service specifier but the operator bears commercial risk for part of a route. All sorts of issues around how you measure the contracted performance and who is at "fault" if things go wrong especially given traffic at Bluewater, on what would be the commercial bit, is often why the 96 is screwed.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2016 18:04:45 GMT
Wasn't there a similar story from Dartford Council recently about cutting the TFL routes that go down to Dartford and Bluewater? My other question is how much say do the operators have in this situation, e.g. if they still wanted to run the route in its current form but convert it to a commercial route. Dartford to Bluewater is, of course, rather different because TfL routes run alongside commercial services in a number of cases. I suspect that if TfL routes were pulled off then Arriva KT would bolster their commercial network in part replacement. They'd be positively drooling at the prospect of all those route 96 passengers being kicked off in Dartford and having to pay a nice commercial fare onwards to Bluewater. I can't see Stagecoach wanting to try to run a commercial Dartford to Bluewater route given the issues around the use of Fastrack bus lanes and Arriva's dominant position in the area. I can't see there being any scope for a hybrid tendered / commercial service where TfL are the main funder / service specifier but the operator bears commercial risk for part of a route. All sorts of issues around how you measure the contracted performance and who is at "fault" if things go wrong especially given traffic at Bluewater, on what would be the commercial bit, is often why the 96 is screwed. Of course, while Arriva could drool at potential extra custom, I don't think everyone will simply switch to the commercial services if the 96, 428 & 492 were cut back to Crayford, especially when they see the fact they'll be paying more in fares - any sort of cutback of the TfL routes could lead to car ownership increasing in an area where car ownership is probably already high. This also could be replicated elsewhere, particularly in areas where there isn't commercial services running nearby or parallel to.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 3, 2016 18:56:04 GMT
Dartford to Bluewater is, of course, rather different because TfL routes run alongside commercial services in a number of cases. I suspect that if TfL routes were pulled off then Arriva KT would bolster their commercial network in part replacement. They'd be positively drooling at the prospect of all those route 96 passengers being kicked off in Dartford and having to pay a nice commercial fare onwards to Bluewater. I can't see Stagecoach wanting to try to run a commercial Dartford to Bluewater route given the issues around the use of Fastrack bus lanes and Arriva's dominant position in the area. I can't see there being any scope for a hybrid tendered / commercial service where TfL are the main funder / service specifier but the operator bears commercial risk for part of a route. All sorts of issues around how you measure the contracted performance and who is at "fault" if things go wrong especially given traffic at Bluewater, on what would be the commercial bit, is often why the 96 is screwed. Of course, while Arriva could drool at potential extra custom, I don't think everyone will simply switch to the commercial services if the 96, 428 & 492 were cut back to Crayford, especially when they see the fact they'll be paying more in fares - any sort of cutback of the TfL routes could lead to car ownership increasing in an area where car ownership is probably already high.This also could be replicated elsewhere, particularly in areas where there isn't commercial services running nearby or parallel to. There is no 'probably' about it, vjaska
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2016 21:42:41 GMT
Of course, while Arriva could drool at potential extra custom, I don't think everyone will simply switch to the commercial services if the 96, 428 & 492 were cut back to Crayford, especially when they see the fact they'll be paying more in fares - any sort of cutback of the TfL routes could lead to car ownership increasing in an area where car ownership is probably already high.This also could be replicated elsewhere, particularly in areas where there isn't commercial services running nearby or parallel to. There is no 'probably' about it, vjaska Lol, fair enough - I didn't want to assume.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 11:38:46 GMT
Hopefully a firm will step in commercially. Sapphire 142 Watford - Brent Cross ??
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Post by sid on Jan 4, 2016 11:46:45 GMT
Hopefully a firm will step in commercially. Sapphire 142 Watford - Brent Cross ?? Presumably it would only be Watford to Edgware with TfL covering the Brent Cross section with something else?
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Post by ServerKing on Jan 4, 2016 13:44:33 GMT
I hope they can sort things out soon. The news has sent shockwaves across the Atlantic
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 4, 2016 14:13:34 GMT
I doubt it: Waltham Cross is only just over the boundary and is the most convenient point at which to terminate. There are some political tactics at play here: under the GLA Act 1999, the Mayor has a general transport duty (section 141) to 'develop and implement policies for the promotion and encouragement of safe, integrated, efficient and economic transport facilities and services to, from and within Greater London.' It's that 'to & from' that lets Herts politicians dump the ball back at the feet of TfL. Responsibility for the Croxley Rail Link probably blurs the issue too. The fact TfL also has a bus station at Waltham Cross adds to the point you're making about operational convenience etc. The general transport duty does, of course, have a rather flexible interpretation. Some places have good links and others are very poorly off indeed. I expect flexible interpretations will continue to apply! I don't think the Croxley Rail Link blurs anything other than HCC's nose being out of joint having had the project taken away from them by Government and given to TfL to implement as the latter was considerable more "competent". It's a capital investment project which has separate funding to bus subsidies. LU has little scope these days to close any bit of the Underground - demand is high and growing and I suspect that if the Ongar line and Aldwych branch were still open they'd be busy and would have all day services. I could certainly see people in Essex being attracted to park and ride at Ongar to take the tube into town. Sadly we'll never one way or the other. I still cant imagine the Aldwych link would be busy if in operation today. It would only be busy if it had regular trains that went on the main line up to Cockfosters without having to come off at Holborn to change. The Ongar link though I think would be busy now if it were running, its only hindrance is the part where it goes into a single track on the route.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 13, 2016 16:16:22 GMT
And now the panic about Herts bus subsidy spreads to routes serving Borehamwood. There are also local petitions being organised and Hertsmere Council residents are all in a panic that TfL contracted bus routes might be lost. Mildly ironic when they voted in a Tory MP and mostly Tory local councillors who all presumably endorse local authority funding (TfL included) being cut to the bone with no safeguards for bus services whatsoever. They're even saying they'll pay council tax if they can keep the bus services.
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Post by routew15 on Jan 13, 2016 17:26:45 GMT
Looking forward to watching the replies to the question. Not so much looking forward to the over exaggerated noise that Mr Dissmore will make when he asks them. (Have to turn down me tablet when he comes on )
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