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Post by M1104 on Jan 21, 2016 12:32:31 GMT
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Post by thewintersoldier on Jan 21, 2016 16:52:18 GMT
 Above would most likely be the new tfl map? |
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Post by John tuthill on Jan 21, 2016 19:22:30 GMT
Above would most likely be the new tfl map? Who's running TFL now Jackson Pollock?  |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 22, 2016 0:43:57 GMT
I've now read the joint DfT / TfL "consultation" document about the proposed new Partnership for the specification of train services.
The main intent is to switch procurement of train companies from the DfT to TfL for selected inner suburban services. C2C, Greater Anglia via T Hale, London Midland and Chiltern are out of scope. This leaves South Eastern, Thameslink / Southern / Great Northern (all TSGN) and SWT in scope. South Eastern could be first to see a change from 2018.
However there are a number of what I think are significant issues lurking in the document.
1. There are no financial commitments to pay for better service quality or capital investment.
2. There are clear statements that TfL will NOT be able to change fares if it creates problems for longer distance trains crossing the GL boundary. Further the DfT retains final control over all aspects of these franchises. TfL can't unilaterally. The document also says that passengers will continue to pay a greater share of rail industry costs. All this really works against anyone cutting rail fares in London.
3. There is an aspiration to move towards an unified farescale but "that may take many years" and be "subject to the need to earn surpluses to fund investment".
4. Even medium term there is little prospect of improved peak time frequencies. Only off peak improvements are mentioned.
5. There is a requirement for TfL and DfT to agree a "common standard" for both inner and outer suburban train services. This doesn't necessarily mean that TfL's existing standards will continue - they could actually be watered down to match whatever DfT says it wants to afford. Clearly it's not worded like this but the possibility of a downgrading is not ruled out and why would it be? There must always be scope to change things if money has to be saved.
6. The proposals for consultation over the service specifications will include local councils, TfL, City Hall, DfT, Local Enterprise Partnerships and probably passenger groups. Quite how anything gets agreed with so many consultees I am not sure. It also lumbers TfL with far more consultation over its service specs that it currently does. There is a real risk of inertia and lack of progress if a wide mix of parties can't or won't agree as to what services they believe are required.
7. The major issue is that there is actually no firm commitment to do anything. It's all about possibilities. I understand why some people have got terribly excited about a "TfL takeover" but I think it's all overly involved and potentially too restrictive. Whoever is the next Mayor will be lumbered with a lot of people having expectations about fabulous train services happening straight away when it could take 5-10 years to do anything of any great substance. You certainly can't "fix" South Eastern in the 2 years before the 2020 Mayoral Election.
Sorry to be gloomy but I can some major major issues for TfL and the next Mayor in trying to cope with all this. The fact that TSGN may not transfer until 2023 at the latest (if a contract extension is granted by the DfT) is of great concern given TSGN's currently parlous performance. People will expect something much faster than this but there's no indication DfT are minded to shift. SWT would only move across at 2020 at the earliest because DfT say the platform works at Waterloo must be completed first.
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Post by T.R. on Jan 22, 2016 19:04:36 GMT
Hmmm.
Methinks the media outlets have played this one up too much. People expecting a magic wand wave may be disappointed. Echoing what I said on RailUK Forums, I feel TfL has set the bar too high with LO (ex Silverlink & ELL).
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Post by thewintersoldier on Jan 22, 2016 20:07:42 GMT
South west Trains are at maximum capacity from Waterloo with a train every 4 minutes via wimbledon and a train every 6-8 minutes via Putney.
Silverlink ran services every 30 minutes with 3 car trains. Someone has clearly missed such a key fact.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 22, 2016 20:28:29 GMT
For all their woes, the peak frequencies at Southeastern are actually pretty good : it is off peak which is poor - particularly evenings and Sundays. The x15 min frequency recently-ish introduced on the Bexleyheath line is welcome, how about Sundays too? I think x10 on the Woolwich/Greenwich line on Sundays would work wonders, too.
TfL could also go to work on the cosmetic condition of Southeastern's rolling stock. The 376s in particular are very tired and uncared for. The Networkers aren't a lot better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 21:15:04 GMT
For all their woes, the peak frequencies at Southeastern are actually pretty good : it is off peak which is poor - particularly evenings and Sundays. The x15 min frequency recently-ish introduced on the Bexleyheath line is welcome, how about Sundays too? I think x10 on the Woolwich/Greenwich line on Sundays would work wonders, too. TfL could also go to work on the cosmetic condition of Southeastern's rolling stock. The 376s in particular are very tired and uncared for. The Networkers aren't a lot better. The Bexleyheath line has 6tph each way if you include the loop trains, as does the Woolwich line (though the Woolwich line has the additional 2tph semi-fast). The line that gets the worst deal is the Sidcup line which is 4tph (two loop, two Gravesend stoppers). An increased service for Stone Crossing, Swanscombe and Northfleet would be welcome, particularly as the current 2tph is very vulnerable to disruption - could possibly be achieved by extending 2 of the 8tph that terminate at Dartford, though it would mean efficient use of the bay platform at Gravesend - possible (the semi-fasts have terminated in there in addition to the Gravesend stoppers in the past) but would potentially cause some conflict with the semi-fast trains. |
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Post by thesquirrels on Jan 22, 2016 21:46:35 GMT
South west Trains are at maximum capacity from Waterloo with a train every 4 minutes via wimbledon and a train every 6-8 minutes via Putney. Silverlink ran services every 30 minutes with 3 car trains. Someone has clearly missed such a key fact. Every 15, but the point remains, the difference in capacity utilisation and demand levels are different by an order of magnitude. Additionally, although the former Greater Anglia routes into Liverpool Street were pretty run down pre-TfL takeover, those lines has the relative good fortune of not bursting at the seams under the pressure of either commuter or off peak traffic, (generally - there are a couple of pockets, e.g. s/b into Seven Sisters in the morning peak, where 50% of the train decamps onto the tube. Ditto at Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow) So a greater degree of improvement can be achieved with cosmetic improvements and staffing alone. I can't comment first hand on capacity issues on the SWML/Windsor suburban routes but I know they were creaking under the pressure ten years ago and can only imagine it's more severe now. Cosmetic improvements won't do much there. Real and major capital investment in rolling stock and track infrastructure are the only way out of that hole and TfL won't be able to pull that off unilaterally by any means. They certainly didn't on the North London lines. I've seen some pretty sharp practice on the TfL Rail side of things heading out to Shenfield. Dispatching trains from Stratford before they have finished loading being the major bugbear - not just in high peaks but at weekends too - I know this is an issue at London Bridge as well. The general quality of service on that side is some way short of the mark set by London Overground, for sure, even if it is only a temporary scenario. |
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Post by romfordbuses on Jan 22, 2016 22:32:24 GMT
I've seen some pretty sharp practice on the TfL Rail side of things heading out to Shenfield. Dispatching trains from Stratford before they have finished loading being the major bugbear - not just in high peaks but at weekends too - I know this is an issue at London Bridge as well. The general quality of service on that side is some way short of the mark set by London Overground, for sure, even if it is only a temporary scenario. If they didn't then the trains wouldn't go anywhere! |
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Post by YY13VKP on Jan 22, 2016 22:39:35 GMT
7. The major issue is that there is actually no firm commitment to do anything. It's all about possibilities. I understand why some people have got terribly excited about a "TfL takeover" but I think it's all overly involved and potentially too restrictive. Whoever is the next Mayor will be lumbered with a lot of people having expectations about fabulous train services happening straight away when it could take 5-10 years to do anything of any great substance. You certainly can't "fix" South Eastern in the 2 years before the 2020 Mayoral Election. Sorry to be gloomy but I can some major major issues for TfL and the next Mayor in trying to cope with all this. The fact that TSGN may not transfer until 2023 at the latest (if a contract extension is granted by the DfT) is of great concern given TSGN's currently parlous performance. People will expect something much faster than this but there's no indication DfT are minded to shift. SWT would only move across at 2020 at the earliest because DfT say the platform works at Waterloo must be completed first. I do not want this to happen. I would hate to see London Overground running my local line (which is the Caterham line). I think TSGN are doing a much better job at it. Sure, there are delays on their services but this is due to the Thameslink Programme. When it is finished, there should be much fewer delays and TSGN's performance should greatly improve. I've been studying the Thameslink Programme for my English Language coursework, and i don't see why everyone keeps on complaining about Southern and Thameslink being delayed when its being advertised everywhere that London Bridge is being rebuilt and there is a Thameslink Programme being done! Why London Victoria trains are being delayed, i don't know, but from what I've seen, its been signal failures mainly, and that is beyond TSGN's control. Most of the newspapers are reporting this is confirmed but it hasn't. Now if this were to happen to the TSGN network, London Overground would inherit all Class 377/6's and 377/7's, the Class 313 replacements and Class 455's if they are still around. I think they will be because, even though they are 32 years old, they only need minor work to be done for the 2020 regulations, and they can be heavily rebuilt, and still would be cheaper than buying 46 new trains to replace them. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 22, 2016 23:03:27 GMT
7. The major issue is that there is actually no firm commitment to do anything. It's all about possibilities. I understand why some people have got terribly excited about a "TfL takeover" but I think it's all overly involved and potentially too restrictive. Whoever is the next Mayor will be lumbered with a lot of people having expectations about fabulous train services happening straight away when it could take 5-10 years to do anything of any great substance. You certainly can't "fix" South Eastern in the 2 years before the 2020 Mayoral Election. Sorry to be gloomy but I can some major major issues for TfL and the next Mayor in trying to cope with all this. The fact that TSGN may not transfer until 2023 at the latest (if a contract extension is granted by the DfT) is of great concern given TSGN's currently parlous performance. People will expect something much faster than this but there's no indication DfT are minded to shift. SWT would only move across at 2020 at the earliest because DfT say the platform works at Waterloo must be completed first. I do not want this to happen. I would hate to see London Overground running my local line (which is the Caterham line). I think TSGN are doing a much better job at it. Sure, there are delays on their services but this is due to the Thameslink Programme. When it is finished, there should be much fewer delays and TSGN's performance should greatly improve. I've been studying the Thameslink Programme for my English Language coursework, and i don't see why everyone keeps on complaining about Southern and Thameslink being delayed when its being advertised everywhere that London Bridge is being rebuilt and there is a Thameslink Programme being done! Why London Victoria trains are being delayed, i don't know, but from what I've seen, its been signal failures mainly, and that is beyond TSGN's control. Most of the newspapers are reporting this is confirmed but it hasn't. Now if this were to happen to the TSGN network, London Overground would inherit all Class 377/6's and 377/7's, the Class 313 replacements and Class 455's if they are still around. I think they will be because, even though they are 32 years old, they only need minor work to be done for the 2020 regulations, and they can be heavily rebuilt, and still would be cheaper than buying 46 new trains to replace them. A few comments. 1. Whether you personally notice it or not Govia's performance on the TSGN contract has been lamentable. They breached their franchise contract within 3 months of taking over. DfT have not commented on this. All DfT is concerned about is deflecting the blame from them and bolstering passenger compensation arrangements. 2. TSGN does not come into the scope of any potential transfer until 2021 at the earliest. It may even be 2023 if DfT extended the contract. The possible TfL takeover is not defined - no one knows the precise boundaries or services that could transfer. There is no consensus anywhere as to what happens to the service through the Thameslink core. Does it get split between inner and outer services or is it simply "off limits" because of the complexity of the service pattern? TfL themselves have given very mixed messages as to whether they wanted to take over part of Thameslink or not. 3. TSGN cocked up the timetable big time for services into London Bridge. They've spent months trying to put it right. 4. Yes there are some network rail failures. Some were at London Bridge in the early days but the actual facts NOW are that the assets that TSGN trains run over are new and are very reliable. 5. TSGN have a massive train crew shortage which must be causing issues in terms of covering all the services. Yes they are recruiting and training new drivers but they are not the first TOC nor will they will be the last that suffers a loss of staff when taking on a new franchise. It's a foreseeable risk so why didn't they foresee it and try to prevent such a large loss of staff? 6. The TSGN franchise is so big and so complex that it could be argued that it is too big to fail. That is certainly the impression the DfT give - they won't even publicly contemplate terminating the franchise. That is understandable given past crises at the DfT and obviously Labour MPs want "a scalp" but plenty of Tory MPs in Surrey and Sussex are furious too. 7. Govia are responsible for things like staff performance, most stations, train reliability, customer information etc. I've lost count of the fury of people about appalling handling of disruption and lack of accurate and timely information. When you've got London Assembly members sending exasperated tweets about being late to City Hall or not being able to get home you're in big trouble. And for every Assembly Member there are hundreds or thousands of poor souls wanting to get home or into the office on time. Whatever the issues at London Bridge there is no denying there are problems all over the TSGN network - I see tweets every day of the week about delays across the network. Some is down to Network Rail but not all of it. |
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 23, 2016 8:18:09 GMT
7. The major issue is that there is actually no firm commitment to do anything. It's all about possibilities. I understand why some people have got terribly excited about a "TfL takeover" but I think it's all overly involved and potentially too restrictive. Whoever is the next Mayor will be lumbered with a lot of people having expectations about fabulous train services happening straight away when it could take 5-10 years to do anything of any great substance. You certainly can't "fix" South Eastern in the 2 years before the 2020 Mayoral Election. Sorry to be gloomy but I can some major major issues for TfL and the next Mayor in trying to cope with all this. The fact that TSGN may not transfer until 2023 at the latest (if a contract extension is granted by the DfT) is of great concern given TSGN's currently parlous performance. People will expect something much faster than this but there's no indication DfT are minded to shift. SWT would only move across at 2020 at the earliest because DfT say the platform works at Waterloo must be completed first. I do not want this to happen. I would hate to see London Overground running my local line (which is the Caterham line). I think TSGN are doing a much better job at it. Sure, there are delays on their services but this is due to the Thameslink Programme. When it is finished, there should be much fewer delays and TSGN's performance should greatly improve. I've been studying the Thameslink Programme for my English Language coursework, and i don't see why everyone keeps on complaining about Southern and Thameslink being delayed when its being advertised everywhere that London Bridge is being rebuilt and there is a Thameslink Programme being done! Why London Victoria trains are being delayed, i don't know, but from what I've seen, its been signal failures mainly, and that is beyond TSGN's control. Most of the newspapers are reporting this is confirmed but it hasn't. Now if this were to happen to the TSGN network, London Overground would inherit all Class 377/6's and 377/7's, the Class 313 replacements and Class 455's if they are still around. I think they will be because, even though they are 32 years old, they only need minor work to be done for the 2020 regulations, and they can be heavily rebuilt, and still would be cheaper than buying 46 new trains to replace them. I think you hold a very naive view on the issue. Do you know how infuriating it is when you are paying thousands of pounds per year for a shambolic service one which is unreliable and where you are cramped in like cattle? Perhaps you do not have to commute, but yes there is the London Bridge works but you cannot just accept "delays" on a daily basis. Personally, the Caterham line is my local as well and I have not seen any fewer delays - but the performance stats will speak for themselves. I am quite shocked that you are "surprised" people are complaining. It can be advertised that LBG is being rebuilt until the cows come home, yet there should be systems in place to cope with the programme thus minimising delays. At the moment, there seems to be no 'systems' only a shambolic way of the programme being managed. An example of this, if you recall, is the best crushing at London Bridge a couple of years back in the PM peak. I for one have became so fed up of using trains especially Southern that I now do not and drive. I have the choice yet many many commuters do not. |
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Post by snowman on Jan 23, 2016 10:24:16 GMT
I'm not convinced that it will make much difference to Southern or SW trains. The tracks are basically full, it will probably be a decade before the 455s get replaced. The LBSC built its stations big style so unlikely to see major station improvements. The Southern railway fixed a lot of bottlenecks and those that remain are expensive to fix.
Regarding rolling stock cant see much changing short term, SWT has already ordered new trains for Hounslow lines, and this will allow 10 car trains on Wimbledon lines once platform 1-4 at Waterloo are extended. Can they afford to extend 200 platforms for 12 car suburban, if not then its not much more than change of name.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2016 13:29:00 GMT
I'm not convinced that it will make much difference to Southern or SW trains. The tracks are basically full, it will probably be a decade before the 455s get replaced. The LBSC built its stations big style so unlikely to see major station improvements. The Southern railway fixed a lot of bottlenecks and those that remain are expensive to fix. Regarding rolling stock cant see much changing short term, SWT has already ordered new trains for Hounslow lines, and this will allow 10 car trains on Wimbledon lines once platform 1-4 at Waterloo are extended. Can they afford to extend 200 platforms for 12 car suburban, if not then its not much more than change of name. To be fair the actual prospectus document doesn't make any outrageous claims or commitments. It is only about possibilities. The media and social media have gone into a frenzy about what this means and they've simply got it wrong. There are limited suggestions as to what could be done in the short term and don't affect peak trains at all. It may take 10-15 years to do anything substantive and given there are no financial commitments all the claims about trains every few milliseconds and no overcrowding and everyone having a seat and travel in blissful harmony   are complete and utter nonsense. The fact that the document says that long distance train paths cannot be surrendered means there is limited scope to do anything to peak services without very big investment to unlock pinchpoints and put in new signalling and control systems. |
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are complete and utter nonsense. The fact that the document says that long distance train paths cannot be surrendered means there is limited scope to do anything to peak services without very big investment to unlock pinchpoints and put in new signalling and control systems.