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Post by thesquirrels on Jan 27, 2016 20:03:38 GMT
99 goes through Slade Green - say no more. The first time I went through there on my bike about three years ago there were kids in the streets throwing bottles everywhere and walking around with planks of wood , I also read on here a few years ago that the 89 drivers had all their stand time at Lewisham with only two mins stand at Slade Green just to keep them out of the area. I think this has changed now but I certainly remember Egg or LC1 posting it. +1 about Slade Green. My Mum's Mum has lived there since 1998. I went to see her last week - every time I do I'm in disbelief at how the streets are laden with broken glass and dog mess. When my Mum's parents first moved there, I thought it was quite a pleasant place to be, what with the big field at the end of Moat Lane. It didn't take too long for me to realise it wasn't. Grandad's car was broken into and vandalised horrifically ...while parked in the locked garage. Bus shelters in Slade Green and Erith tend to have pieces of metal/plastic sheeting where the glass is supposed to be, since it all got broken 15 years ago. I also recall when the trains on the Southeastern railway and buses on routes around the area had absolutely horrific etching on every single window that could be etched. No doubt the situation has improved since then though. I won't get involved with the debate about whose 1960/70s block of concrete is the scariest. I will say however that pretty much all the Elephant & Castle bus routes seem to travel in good and bad (but mostly bad) areas, which I've never found surprising. Whenever I travel on Putney's routes, I'm consistently amazed by the pristine condition of their buses. A world of difference compared to the ones at Peckham. +2 for Slade Green. It's a North Kent affliction to an extent - plenty of areas not far from the London boundary share similar attributes but east of Erith is the only part within Greater London, really. Stone, Swanscombe, Northfleet, parts of Gravesend, Medway... Sheppey.. and on. Parts of Thurrock across the river are very similar. Dead but menacing, a certain sort of bleakness. Some of the kids are proper toerags. Their parents were toerags so they don't care, it just drops down a generation. Anything that is considered 'communal', be it a bus shelter, phonebox or bench is liable to being vandalised heavily. Trains and buses fell into that bracket too for many years though proactive maintenance seems to have nipped that behaviour in the bud. The kids just sit and drink and make a mess and hurl abuse. Graffiti - not good stuff - just tags - can be left for months or years. It's different from other areas of London because it feels more entrenched, a harder nut to crack. It is an intergenerational problem. Nothing seems to change. And it isn't always necessarily a material deprivation - most households are in relative comfort - it's more of an attitude issue. I have not so fond memories of having to co-ordinate flyer drops around all the streets in Slade Green and the eastern side of Erith, including the Arthur Street and Larner Road estates (the latter is mostly rubble now), on Friday evenings. Winter wasn't so bad but summer with all the kids out you actually felt like you had to watch your back. It was just unpleasant.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 27, 2016 20:06:32 GMT
In 1980 I worked as a trainee at the Bus Communications Office at Baker Street. One of the jobs I was given to do was to compile a list of all the routes that had more than 10 'code red assault type situations' in a year. A code red would be when a driver contacted the communications office to say they needed assistance from the police. The list just gives route numbers, so you can not identify if particular sections or areas of routes were the scenes of threatening situations. Here is the Top (Bottom?)20! Route Number Number of Assault Type Situations 36/36a/36b 144 37 144 207 125 15 111 73 109 253 109 77/77a/77c 108 53 103 2/2b 82 12 73 28 71 25 68 52 66 88 65 171 65 16/16a 63 18/18a 63 30 57 243/243a 56 3 55 When I worked at Stamford Brook Garage as a conductor on route 27 the northern end of the route between Camden Town and Archway rarely gave any problems. Although a poorer area compared to other parts of the route, late night you tended to just get friendly drunks, who took awhile to get their money out of their pockets but would always pay their fares. When they were completely sozzled they would ask you to just take the correct amount out of the fistful of coins in their hands. Late night Saturday in salubrious Richmond was different. Duty 14 was the last duty of the day and arrived back at the garage at about 1am. After persistent trouble in Richmond an unofficial practice for this duty was followed by most if not all crews. On the last journey from Teddington Station the bus would cross Richmond Bridge and then stop at the traffic lights before turning left into the town centre. There was no bus stop here but passengers were politely told that they could either alight here or wait till the next stop which would be at Richmond Station. It would be explained that this was to ensure that the yobs coming out of clubs such as Cheeky Pete's did not get on the bus and cause trouble. All the passengers I dealt with accepted this situation. All of the saloon lights would then be turned off and the bus would drive past the two stops in Richmond town centre as if out of service. You can argue whether this was the right or wrong thing to do but it did avoid assault type situations. Most people would not have thought of Richmond as the rough end of the route. Ok by day but not late Saturday night. Archway, Kentish and Camden Towns were fine at any time. It would be interesting to research how many of the 1980 "bad" routes were crew operated. Most, if not all, I'd venture to suggest. Crew workings were always notorious for appearing in the assault statistics. The conductors were effectively forced into confrontation. I'll sound like some sort of "reverse snob" but I'm not remotely surprised that the "posh" bits of a route were more troublesome when people had a chance to get tanked up / off their face. The one time I was assaulted it was by people who were later found to be from a posh private school. The attack was completely unprovoked. I was just out for a walk in a pleasant part of the area near where I lived. All the popular nonsense about poor areas being dens of iniquity really isn't right in my experience. Most people are decent and honest - as your "drunks paying their fare" reference shows. Yes there are rough areas but they tend to be because people are living in poor quality housing with few amenities and not because everyone is a criminal or their children are delinquents.
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Post by ServerKing on Jan 27, 2016 21:01:05 GMT
In 1980 I worked as a trainee at the Bus Communications Office at Baker Street. One of the jobs I was given to do was to compile a list of all the routes that had more than 10 'code red assault type situations' in a year. A code red would be when a driver contacted the communications office to say they needed assistance from the police. The list just gives route numbers, so you can not identify if particular sections or areas of routes were the scenes of threatening situations. Here is the Top (Bottom?)20! Route Number Number of Assault Type Situations 36/36a/36b 144 37 144 207 125 15 111 73 109 253 109 77/77a/77c 108 53 103 2/2b 82 12 73 28 71 25 68 52 66 88 65 171 65 16/16a 63 18/18a 63 30 57 243/243a 56 3 55 When I worked at Stamford Brook Garage as a conductor on route 27 the northern end of the route between Camden Town and Archway rarely gave any problems. Although a poorer area compared to other parts of the route, late night you tended to just get friendly drunks, who took awhile to get their money out of their pockets but would always pay their fares. When they were completely sozzled they would ask you to just take the correct amount out of the fistful of coins in their hands. Late night Saturday in salubrious Richmond was different. Duty 14 was the last duty of the day and arrived back at the garage at about 1am. After persistent trouble in Richmond an unofficial practice for this duty was followed by most if not all crews. On the last journey from Teddington Station the bus would cross Richmond Bridge and then stop at the traffic lights before turning left into the town centre. There was no bus stop here but passengers were politely told that they could either alight here or wait till the next stop which would be at Richmond Station. It would be explained that this was to ensure that the yobs coming out of clubs such as Cheeky Pete's did not get on the bus and cause trouble. All the passengers I dealt with accepted this situation. All of the saloon lights would then be turned off and the bus would drive past the two stops in Richmond town centre as if out of service. You can argue whether this was the right or wrong thing to do but it did avoid assault type situations. Most people would not have thought of Richmond as the rough end of the route. Ok by day but not late Saturday night. Archway, Kentish and Camden Towns were fine at any time. It would be interesting to research how many of the 1980 "bad" routes were crew operated. Most, if not all, I'd venture to suggest. Crew workings were always notorious for appearing in the assault statistics. The conductors were effectively forced into confrontation. I'll sound like some sort of "reverse snob" but I'm not remotely surprised that the "posh" bits of a route were more troublesome when people had a chance to get tanked up / off their face. The one time I was assaulted it was by people who were later found to be from a posh private school. The attack was completely unprovoked. I was just out for a walk in a pleasant part of the area near where I lived. All the popular nonsense about poor areas being dens of iniquity really isn't right in my experience. Most people are decent and honest - as your "drunks paying their fare" reference shows. Yes there are rough areas but they tend to be because people are living in poor quality housing with few amenities and not because everyone is a criminal or their children are delinquents. I can't figure out what posh kids have to fight about - or is it Tax Codes as opposed to Post Codes where I was back in the day? (My bro in law had a fear of straying into N22 from N17 ) Brentford, although some parts are quite genteel (Brentford Docks, Brentford Marina, Syon Park, Kew Bridge, Butts Estate) has some really grotty Tower Blocks and estates (in one of the blocks, BBC3 filmed "People Just Do Nothing" featuring MC Grindah and Kurupt FM) in amongst the "up and coming" multi-million pound apartments such as North Brentford Quarter (home to the 235 when the barrier isn't busted ), rents are crazy, some places go for £7325 pcm on Zoopla I think there's really grotty areas such as Neasden, especially along the 112 route of the North Circ, where the houses are caked in car fumes... they have the StreetDeck Bridge Deck repairs going on at the moment, so that makes that part of town fun to be in... 102 route links quite diverse areas, Golders Green and Edmonton Green, and the increasingly shabby Brent Cross (needs an update, it's no longer the 1960s...)
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Post by sid on Jan 27, 2016 21:13:29 GMT
It would be interesting to research how many of the 1980 "bad" routes were crew operated. Most, if not all, I'd venture to suggest. Crew workings were always notorious for appearing in the assault statistics. The conductors were effectively forced into confrontation. I'll sound like some sort of "reverse snob" but I'm not remotely surprised that the "posh" bits of a route were more troublesome when people had a chance to get tanked up / off their face. The one time I was assaulted it was by people who were later found to be from a posh private school. The attack was completely unprovoked. I was just out for a walk in a pleasant part of the area near where I lived. All the popular nonsense about poor areas being dens of iniquity really isn't right in my experience. Most people are decent and honest - as your "drunks paying their fare" reference shows. Yes there are rough areas but they tend to be because people are living in poor quality housing with few amenities and not because everyone is a criminal or their children are delinquents. I can't figure out what posh kids have to fight about - or is it Tax Codes as opposed to Post Codes where I was back in the day? (My bro in law had a fear of straying into N22 from N17 ) Brentford, although some parts are quite genteel (Brentford Docks, Brentford Marina, Syon Park, Kew Bridge, Butts Estate) has some really grotty Tower Blocks and estates (in one of the blocks, BBC3 filmed "People Just Do Nothing" featuring MC Grindah and Kurupt FM) in amongst the "up and coming" multi-million pound apartments such as North Brentford Quarter (home to the 235 when the barrier isn't busted ), rents are crazy, some places go for £7325 pcm on Zoopla I think there's really grotty areas such as Neasden, especially along the 112 route of the North Circ, where the houses are caked in car fumes... they have the StreetDeck Bridge Deck repairs going on at the moment, so that makes that part of town fun to be in... 102 route links quite diverse areas, Golders Green and Edmonton Green, and the increasingly shabby Brent Cross (needs an update, it's no longer the 1960s...) Brent Cross was quite state of the art when it opened (mid 70's?) but its certainly showing its age now.
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Post by thesquirrels on Jan 27, 2016 21:18:46 GMT
In 1980 I worked as a trainee at the Bus Communications Office at Baker Street. One of the jobs I was given to do was to compile a list of all the routes that had more than 10 'code red assault type situations' in a year. A code red would be when a driver contacted the communications office to say they needed assistance from the police. The list just gives route numbers, so you can not identify if particular sections or areas of routes were the scenes of threatening situations. Here is the Top (Bottom?)20! Route Number Number of Assault Type Situations 36/36a/36b 144 37 144 207 125 15 111 73 109 253 109 77/77a/77c 108 53 103 2/2b 82 12 73 28 71 25 68 52 66 88 65 171 65 16/16a 63 18/18a 63 30 57 243/243a 56 3 55 When I worked at Stamford Brook Garage as a conductor on route 27 the northern end of the route between Camden Town and Archway rarely gave any problems. Although a poorer area compared to other parts of the route, late night you tended to just get friendly drunks, who took awhile to get their money out of their pockets but would always pay their fares. When they were completely sozzled they would ask you to just take the correct amount out of the fistful of coins in their hands. Late night Saturday in salubrious Richmond was different. Duty 14 was the last duty of the day and arrived back at the garage at about 1am. After persistent trouble in Richmond an unofficial practice for this duty was followed by most if not all crews. On the last journey from Teddington Station the bus would cross Richmond Bridge and then stop at the traffic lights before turning left into the town centre. There was no bus stop here but passengers were politely told that they could either alight here or wait till the next stop which would be at Richmond Station. It would be explained that this was to ensure that the yobs coming out of clubs such as Cheeky Pete's did not get on the bus and cause trouble. All the passengers I dealt with accepted this situation. All of the saloon lights would then be turned off and the bus would drive past the two stops in Richmond town centre as if out of service. You can argue whether this was the right or wrong thing to do but it did avoid assault type situations. Most people would not have thought of Richmond as the rough end of the route. Ok by day but not late Saturday night. Archway, Kentish and Camden Towns were fine at any time. The 36B (essentially today's 136) is of note in being an early conversion from DDs to full size single deckers outright because of sustained vandalism issues on the top decks of the RMs and Ts. (source: Ian's Bus Stop, Dennis LA page), though that was ten years after these stats were compiled. Can't think of another route to have undergone such a change for that reason. I can remember riding crew routes as a child (late 90s early 00s) where conductors would not come upstairs to check fares for the duration of 30+ minute trips, especially in the evenings. The 38 and 36 were of note in this regard. The 136 is no walk in the park now but seems a far cry from that sort of situation. No doubt CCTV and ID-linked oysters for the kids must have a lot of involvement in the change in behaviour.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 21:19:27 GMT
+1 about Slade Green. My Mum's Mum has lived there since 1998. I went to see her last week - every time I do I'm in disbelief at how the streets are laden with broken glass and dog mess. When my Mum's parents first moved there, I thought it was quite a pleasant place to be, what with the big field at the end of Moat Lane. It didn't take too long for me to realise it wasn't. Grandad's car was broken into and vandalised horrifically ...while parked in the locked garage. Bus shelters in Slade Green and Erith tend to have pieces of metal/plastic sheeting where the glass is supposed to be, since it all got broken 15 years ago. I also recall when the trains on the Southeastern railway and buses on routes around the area had absolutely horrific etching on every single window that could be etched. No doubt the situation has improved since then though. I won't get involved with the debate about whose 1960/70s block of concrete is the scariest. I will say however that pretty much all the Elephant & Castle bus routes seem to travel in good and bad (but mostly bad) areas, which I've never found surprising. Whenever I travel on Putney's routes, I'm consistently amazed by the pristine condition of their buses. A world of difference compared to the ones at Peckham. +2 for Slade Green. It's a North Kent affliction to an extent - plenty of areas not far from the London boundary share similar attributes but east of Erith is the only part within Greater London, really. Stone, Swanscombe, Northfleet, parts of Gravesend, Medway... Sheppey.. and on. Parts of Thurrock across the river are very similar. Dead but menacing, a certain sort of bleakness. Some of the kids are proper toerags. Their parents were toerags so they don't care, it just drops down a generation. Anything that is considered 'communal', be it a bus shelter, phonebox or bench is liable to being vandalised heavily. Trains and buses fell into that bracket too for many years though proactive maintenance seems to have nipped that behaviour in the bud. The kids just sit and drink and make a mess and hurl abuse. Graffiti - not good stuff - just tags - can be left for months or years. It's different from other areas of London because it feels more entrenched, a harder nut to crack. It is an intergenerational problem. Nothing seems to change. And it isn't always necessarily a material deprivation - most households are in relative comfort - it's more of an attitude issue. I have not so fond memories of having to co-ordinate flyer drops around all the streets in Slade Green and the eastern side of Erith, including the Arthur Street and Larner Road estates (the latter is mostly rubble now), on Friday evenings. Winter wasn't so bad but summer with all the kids out you actually felt like you had to watch your back. It was just unpleasant. Excellent posting.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Jan 27, 2016 22:38:17 GMT
The only time I've been mugged on a bus was in the mid nineties was on a Sunday OPO 12 in Peckham. The crew operated RM's were perfectly safe to ride.
However, the last time I really felt unsafe was when the 12/436 had bendies which attracted all sorts of undesirables.
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Post by bookd on Jan 27, 2016 22:44:33 GMT
There are frequent calls to police from buses terminating at Penge (176), Anerley (249/432) and Crystal Palace ( any routes) Usually it's just drunks refusing to get off. The last trips back to Hampton on the R70 were a nightmare when FW ran it. Really busy especially in the summer. Always fights. I think there is a correlation with areas that on paper should be trouble free but attract people who just treat buses as something they can sh*t all over. Although the R70 covers some well to do areas it also goes to the area near the Swan at Hanworth, notorious in its time for often violent criminal activity and now closed.
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Post by goaheadswvlrbest on Jan 27, 2016 23:58:53 GMT
Interesting Post this. I do find the well off areas notably Kensington, Knightsbridge, Chelsea and Putney have excellent bus links due to a combination of being in the centre zones, employment and tourist hotspots. There is a few routes I can think of that combine well off and less well off notably 345 starts in Kensington and ends up through Brixton and Peckham. similar to 319 heading from Chelsea through Tooting and Brixton. The 83 starts in Ealing, passes through some rough areas of Wembley and Hendon. I do agree with posts about Slade Green having been on the 89 and 99 the estate around the terminus and the train depot seems an area you don't want to hang around in. I find London in general doesn't have the level of problem areas it did say 15 to 20 years back, ive never had any antisocial trouble traveling on buses. East of the city now seems to be very up and coming, Brixton, Peckham seem more civilised. Delboy was partially right when he said to Rodney in the Yuppy love episode 'Peckham is a very up and coming area, full of wine bars and bistros. property prices are booming' .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 6:42:32 GMT
Bexleyheath had issues for years with the rowdy Fri / Sat night crowd who 'd all end up at the clock tower. Those stops were closed late evening partially because of the rowdy behaviour.
Some crew routes in NW London had M's covering the RM's in evenings because of assaults on staff ( 18 & 260 )
Anecdotally I've heard local tales of the 47 being particularly dangerous back in the day. Linking areas of high concentrations of far right idiots with increasing black and Asian communities around Lewisham. Was a route I'm told the conductors didn't go upstairs after a certain time.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 28, 2016 10:47:37 GMT
I think part of the problem with Slade Green, aside from Bexley council being very fond of placing undesirables there, is that it really isn't on the way to anywhere, as such it feels rather out on a limb.
Erith gets better the further south you go : the area around Erith town/Lower Belvedere I would say is more industrial than threatening, which makes it seem nastier than it actually is.
Snoggle : the 60s/70s bits of Thamesmead are not nice, and Bexley Council don't seem to mend the lighting in Coralline Walk and Maran Way these days : it's outright scary. North Thamesmead, though again out on a limb, seems to have more in the way of amenities and suchlike compared to Slade Green, so really is not bad at all.
I see the 380 has been mentioned : most of the route is quite reasonable - the worst bit by some margin is two or three stops either side of Woolwich Dockyard station.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Jan 28, 2016 15:53:25 GMT
Reminds me of the joy of riding the 99 through Plumstead with Somali schoolkids kicking off.
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Post by bookd on Jan 28, 2016 15:58:33 GMT
Having just been reading the dreadful story of Bellfield's latest confessions two of his attacks were related to the R70 route, at Twickenham Green and at Hampton.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 28, 2016 18:28:58 GMT
Interesting Post this. I do find the well off areas notably Kensington, Knightsbridge, Chelsea and Putney have excellent bus links due to a combination of being in the centre zones, employment and tourist hotspots. There is a few routes I can think of that combine well off and less well off notably 345 starts in Kensington and ends up through Brixton and Peckham. similar to 319 heading from Chelsea through Tooting and Brixton. The 83 starts in Ealing, passes through some rough areas of Wembley and Hendon. I do agree with posts about Slade Green having been on the 89 and 99 the estate around the terminus and the train depot seems an area you don't want to hang around in. I find London in general doesn't have the level of problem areas it did say 15 to 20 years back, ive never had any antisocial trouble traveling on buses. East of the city now seems to be very up and coming, Brixton, Peckham seem more civilised. Delboy was partially right when he said to Rodney in the Yuppy love episode 'Peckham is a very up and coming area, full of wine bars and bistros. property prices are booming' . Whilst the 'gentrification' of Brixton has been going on for a couple of years, it's not really taken off yet in Peckham. Rye Lane is still a hell hole as are parts of North Peckham where the Aylesbury Estate partly sits though knocking down 1960's flats won't simply solve that issue. I think why Brixton has moved ahead, in terms of how better an area is, could also be down to better transport links - it only needs the Overground really to complete the collection whereas Peckham is cut off directly from the Underground.
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Post by Alex on Jan 29, 2016 0:13:51 GMT
Certainly is , lots of good examples on here and some very interesting stories. It's interesting to see 'better off area - worse behaved passengers' isn't a phenomenon that only I see......and all these years I thought I was being paranoid Talking of grief, I regularly frequent some very ropey areas of London. I live in Plumstead, my other half lives in Upton Park, she works in Edmonton, and I play darts and go out in Croydon a lot. However, I have never had any hassle in any of these areas, the last place it nearly kicked off - was - Staines. Admittedly that part of the world is known for being a bit 'chav' like (Ali G said it, not me) but I certainly didn't expect about 15 kids to surround me and my mate walking from the station. Very bad. Also, the other place I had some serious bother (basically getting mugged - long story) was Mitcham a couple of years ago. Terrible place. I felt very unsafe in that area even before then, much more so than the other places I've just mentioned. Agreed about those places heading towards the Thames Estuary - they all seem very bleak. I've always thought that, and wondered if it was just my perception, or whether this really was the case. It seems I was right , backed up by blokes I know who are heavily into non-league football, who have watched games on the north side, namely places like Aveley, Grays and Tilbury. They described these places as the grimmest in the world, I'll admit Slade Green and the Crayford Marshes aren't exactly the most inspiring places I've been to....... Going back to Staines (!) I've always had bad vibes about that area - Feltham, Bedfont, Stanwell, Hanworth etc. Again, I always wondered if I'd be proved wrong but evidence I have seen doesn't seem to. Certainly on the 290 back from Staines that time, I didn't feel as ease as I would have done on a SE London bus (you'd think such places as Ashford and Hanworth would be salubrious compared to SE18, again, as this thread has proved - wrong!)........ In fact (shameless plug) my journey from there could easily be a candidate for the 'day out' thread, after getting SWT to Staines, my way home back to PD was: 290 Staines to Hampton Sainsburys 285 to Kingston N87 to Wimbledon 93 to South Wimbledon N155 to Elephant 453 to Old Kent Road 53 to PD Station (Looking through my Whatsapp messages to my mate, I was at Clapham North at 01:18, and at PD at 3am.......no hassle on this at all, though an N155 heading towards London will be a safe bet). The slightly strange route being necessitated by numerous pit stops for food and (ahem) refreshments, and doing a route that saw my mate get the 93 back home. Was quite proud of that really after a night out , and yes, getting back to thread, the bit I disliked the most was the 290 bit, very strange.
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