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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 23:57:24 GMT
But how many people use the Foots Cray Tesco , when there is a much bigger one in Orpington !!?? I'm sure the Orpington one is only a Tesco Extra / Express and not a 24 hour superstore.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 0:01:20 GMT
Its not exactly a nice walk from the estate to Tescos so I'm against removing R11 from Footscray Tesco. However that Tesco does seem to be over bussed with empty 321' s Whenever I've got on the 321, most passengers seem to leave the route before Foots Cray, Tesco. But I'm happy to be corrected as I am not a local. I do not doubt that these routes probably service the Tesco just fine. The 321 could do with terminating elsewhere but still run via the Tesco (in a new stand on North Cray maybe, giving the estate a 24 hour service and many new links). 321s towards Foots Cray Tesco could instead double-run continuing onto Ruxley Corner Roundabout heading straight onto N Cray Rd to terminate, while in the other direction double-run and continue via route R11 to Crittalls Corner then via existing line of route. It's a simple round the corner link the estate could do with in N Cray. I'd keep the R11 here though.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 2, 2016 0:07:02 GMT
But how many people use the Foots Cray Tesco , when there is a much bigger one in Orpington !!?? I'm sure the Orpington one is only a Tesco Extra / Express and not a 24 hour superstore. Orpington is currently 24 hours but is one of a large number of stores that will revert to reduced opening hours. Surely the issue is a simple one - if you live north of Orpington in St Mary Cray or thereabouts then it's a few stops to Foots Cray Tesco. If you do as TfL suggest and go to Orpington Tesco then you've got a much longer ride and are more likely to get stuck in a crawl in Orpington High St. That does nothing to encourage people who are time pressured to jump on the bus to do their shopping. It's a bit poor really as is expecting people to change buses for a journey that's only 4-5 stops. TfL say only 150 trips a day are affected by the change but I'd be pretty cross if I was one of the 150. Locally I use the W11 to go to Sainsburys for my shopping. I wonder how many people a day get on and off at Sainsburys Crooked Billet? I'd be surprised if it was much more than 150 a day. The only saving grace is that Arriva do crew changes there so TfL are unlikely to take the bus away.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 0:10:59 GMT
I'm sure the Orpington one is only a Tesco Extra / Express and not a 24 hour superstore. Orpington is currently 24 hours but is one of a large number of stores that will revert to reduced opening hours. Surely the issue is a simple one - if you live north of Orpington in St Mary Cray or thereabouts then it's a few stops to Foots Cray Tesco. If you do as TfL suggest and go to Orpington Tesco then you've got a much longer ride and are more likely to get stuck in a crawl in Orpington High St. That does nothing to encourage people who are time pressured to jump on the bus to do their shopping. It's a bit poor really as it expecting people to change buses for a journey that's only 4-5 stops. TfL say only 150 trips a day are affected by the change but I'd be pretty cross if I was one of the 150. Locally I use the W11 to go to Sainsburys for my shopping. I wonder how many people a day get on and off at Sainsburys Crooked Billet? I'd be surprised if was much more than 150 a day. The only saving grace is that Arriva do crew changes there so TfL are unlikely to take the bus away. Totally agree with you. I do think the R11 should remain unchanged.
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Post by routew15 on Feb 2, 2016 0:13:12 GMT
Have had a quick look through this: I agree with others - I disagree with removing the R11 from serving Foots Cray Tesco. I think it should continue to run as now. Why TfL have put that the 321 would still serve Foots Cray Tesco is beyond me - it doesn't go into Orpington whatsoever so it's just not relevant! Are they covering for the fact they are cutting a link for many living on the R11 route? Adding to the fact that people still wanting this link would have to cross near the Crittall's Corner roundabout and walk for at least a mile. Note that the 321's first-last stop is Foots Cray Tesco so basically TfL is forcing these people to walk to the Tesco!?! They can't get a 321 back as it goes nowhere near Orpington as previously stated. Not happy with this one at all!!!!! If ridership is low on M-F then I don't see why the route can't just serve Sidcup Tesco on weekends. I find it hard to imagine the R11 only having 150 broken links to a superstore on a Saturday it has be more than that. If that is not possible then i don't see why the R6 could not be extended to Foots Cray Tesco (maybe using one bus from the R4, if PVR of 2 is not enough). Also, Orpington Tesco Extra is meant to be the alternative store to use yet, none of the proposed changes mention a bus stop located in front of the store... It's a whole lot easier to imagine something as an alternative if it is more accessible! It seems that quite a few bus proposals mention walking, however in an area that has a higher old aged population I don't think it is appropriate or considerate to ask passengers to do much walking. A 3 minute walk up the incline to Orpington Hospital is ok for me but for those with walking aid and wheelchairs it must be a challenge. I to like the R1 idea. The link to train station from Orpington Hospital will be great. I don't share your view on Sevenoaks Road. Whilst a handle full of bus routes do serve Sevenoaks Road only two of the routes are high frequency and with the grammar school not to far off it, I'd question if the routes serving that road would suffice.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 2, 2016 0:20:14 GMT
But how many people use the Foots Cray Tesco , when there is a much bigger one in Orpington !!?? The thing is, you have a large residential area right around the corner from the Tesco store so why would you travel the 20 minute+ journey to Orpington rather than the 5 minute journey to Foots Cray. Even the size wouldn't particularly matter as the area most likely has high car ownership so those looking to do a massive shop would most likely drive to a bigger store anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 0:23:39 GMT
Have had a quick look through this: I agree with others - I disagree with removing the R11 from serving Foots Cray Tesco. I think it should continue to run as now. Why TfL have put that the 321 would still serve Foots Cray Tesco is beyond me - it doesn't go into Orpington whatsoever so it's just not relevant! Are they covering for the fact they are cutting a link for many living on the R11 route? Adding to the fact that people still wanting this link would have to cross near the Crittall's Corner roundabout and walk for at least a mile. Note that the 321's first-last stop is Foots Cray Tesco so basically TfL is forcing these people to walk to the Tesco!?! They can't get a 321 back as it goes nowhere near Orpington as previously stated. Not happy with this one at all!!!!! If ridership is low on M-F then I don't see why the route can't just serve Sidcup Tesco on weekends. I find it hard to imagine the R11 only having 150 broken links to a superstore on a Saturday it has be more than that. If that is not possible then i don't see why the R6 could not be extended to Foots Cray Tesco (maybe using one bus from the R4, if PVR of 2 is not enough). Also, Orpington Tesco Extra is meant to be the alternative store to use yet, none of the proposed changes mention a bus stop located in front of the store... It's a whole lot easier to imagine something as an alternative if it is more accessible! It seems that quite a few bus proposals mention walking, however in an area that has a higher old aged population I don't think it is appropriate or considerate to ask passengers to do much walking. A 3 minute walk up the incline to Orpington Hospital is ok for me but for those with walking aid and wheelchairs it must be a challenge. I to like the R1 idea. The link to train station from Orpington Hospital will be great. I don't share your view on Sevenoaks Road. Whilst a handle full of bus routes do serve Sevenoaks Road only two of the routes are high frequency and with the grammar school not to far off it, I'd question if the routes serving that road would suffice. I totally agree about the R11, I am questioning why they are forcing people to walk to the Tesco and why they didn't make changes to any of the other R routes. I'm not familiar with them but there must have been something like you have proposed to maintain necessary links, to the Tesco or to the Hospital etc. I'm pretty sure that Bromley and Bexley boroughs for which these areas pertain are the oldest too yet they are forcing the elderly and sick to walk. (What about those in Chelsfield? They now have no links to Proncess Royal Hospital, right?!) These are important links to be breaking. Thanks for clearing up the Sevenoaks Road link I'm not a local and from the sounds of it there's a big demand here. Certainly the last time I went to Nugents Retail Park on a 51, Sevenoaks Way was insanely busy and demand was pretty steady throughout (this was mid-morning on a weekday).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 8:07:25 GMT
Playing devils advocate here really. But if statistics show most passengers are using the R11 as a through service and not boarding / alighting at Foots Cray Tescos, then why should the majority suffer increased journey times ? That stretch of road is often congested. If it wasn't for TfL insistence on standardisation, maybe off peak / sat & sun shopping hours could remain with the double run. The bus stop within the grounds is hidden, typically near the rear of the store with no flag when I was last there. Tescos obviously don't give too much of a hoot in promoting non car travel to its store. Im pretty sure that St Mary Cray residents use Orpington and the Nugents as their main destination . Orpington itself us undergoing major transformation with cinemas being built where the old police station & sainsburys used to be, so I expect all the Orpington routes to get busier.
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Post by Paul on Feb 2, 2016 9:06:35 GMT
But how many people use the Foots Cray Tesco , when there is a much bigger one in Orpington !!?? The Orpington store may be 'bigger' but for a big grocery shop I find the range extremely poor. Tesco could have made the Orpington store a very good Superstore; instead they made it a rather poor Extra. For me, the Foots Cray store is far superior I too find the figure of 150 trips to be rather low. I can't believe it isn't more; it's an important link used not only by shoppers but, as I mentioned earlier, staff as well. My wife is none too pleased with the prospect of her trip home from work (at 9pm) being lengthened - possibly significantly One of the reasons given is to speed up journey times for through passengers but this doesn't hold water for me. Those wanting to go to and from Orpington and Sidcup are surely using the 51 while the B14 provides a quicker link to Sidcup from St Pauls Cray and still would even if the R11 stopped using Tesco. I believe it's crucial to maintain a link between Tesco and St Pauls Cray; to stop it makes absolutely no sense to me
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Post by twobellstogo on Feb 2, 2016 9:08:57 GMT
On the whole, a pretty decent set of changes. A pity there's no link there from the Crays to Foots Cray Tesco : perhaps the meandering R1 could be extended there if TfL wish to remove the R11's various double runs. Poverest has been mentioned : it's not amazing bus territory : and the back roads currently served by the R2 and proposed to be served by the R3 get a better service than currently. It probably matches demand.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 2, 2016 11:11:07 GMT
And then the R7. Firstly, I don't think the change would go down too well with the route's regular punters. They are quite resistant to change and would see this as 'taking away their route.' Any changes would need to be heavily advertised and as drivers we would need to make sure the regulars know exactly what is happening I have little problem with the extension to Chelsfield Village. Something needs to take over the R3 section so it might as well be the R7 - although is there a case to be made for the R2 taking it over? I'm not too sure about the extension at the other end though. Even leaving aside the fact that Chislehurst War Memorial is a strange place to terminate (Gordon Arms or Queen Mary's would be better) actually getting there will pose a problem. Summer Hill and Bromley Lane are nightmares in the peaks and the Chelsfield end of the route will suffer. On balance I say leave it at the Aquila And the Sunday service? I've said since I started driving it that a Sunday service would probably be fairly well used and genuinely believe this - might also mean no 261s on a Sunday for me anymore! I'm going to be very interested to see how this one pans out In what way do these changes mean that the route "is being taken away" from the regular users? It's not exactly being diverted away from anywhere - just lengthened. Is it fact there won't be a stand at Acquila or Walnuts Centre that's the issue? Your comment about Bromley Road is pertinent. I rarely get down there but when I did the 269 a while back it coincided with the start of the school run and the traffic towards Chislehurst was dreadful. Several oos 637/8s were stuck in the traffic. If the new R7's schedule doesn't reflect that scale of potential delay then I agree with you the reliability could suffer.
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Post by Paul on Feb 2, 2016 11:26:13 GMT
In what way do these changes mean that the route "is being taken away" from the regular users? It's not exactly being diverted away from anywhere - just lengthened. Is it fact there won't be a stand at Acquila or Walnuts Centre that's the issue? Driving the route for the past couple of years has taught me that the regular users are very possessive of 'their' route. They don't like change and are still complaining about the 'new' timetable even though it's been in operation for nearly a year now! They know they can get a bus at a certain time, do their shopping and get the next bus back Not having the stand at the Aquila or the Walnuts won't sit well with them either. Many of them, particularly at the Walnuts, congregate 10-15 minutes before departure and like to board as soon as the bus turns up I'm not saying any of this should be treated as genuine reasons not to change but there will be resistance and as drivers we are the ones who will be moaned at! I forgot to mention this earlier but the move to every 30 minutes is a strange one for me as well. Obviously I don't know how well patronised the R3 is between Orpington and Chelsfield Village but I can't imagine it's too dissimilar to the current R7 and at the moment it's not at all unusual to complete a trip at any time of the day having only seen three or four people. I think a 30 minute frequency is entirely unnecessary and the resources could be better deployed elsewhere
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Post by snoggle on Feb 2, 2016 11:52:08 GMT
In what way do these changes mean that the route "is being taken away" from the regular users? It's not exactly being diverted away from anywhere - just lengthened. Is it fact there won't be a stand at Acquila or Walnuts Centre that's the issue? Driving the route for the past couple of years has taught me that the regular users are very possessive of 'their' route. They don't like change and are still complaining about the 'new' timetable even though it's been in operation for nearly a year now! They know they can get a bus at a certain time, do their shopping and get the next bus back Not having the stand at the Aquila or the Walnuts won't sit well with them either. Many of them, particularly at the Walnuts, congregate 10-15 minutes before departure and like to board as soon as the bus turns up I'm not saying any of this should be treated as genuine reasons not to change but there will be resistance and as drivers we are the ones who will be moaned at! I forgot to mention this earlier but the move to every 30 minutes is a strange one for me as well. Obviously I don't know how well patronised the R3 is between Orpington and Chelsfield Village but I can't imagine it's too dissimilar to the current R7 and at the moment it's not at all unusual to complete a trip at any time of the day having only seen three or four people. I think a 30 minute frequency is entirely unnecessary and the resources could be better deployed elsewhere Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean about the regulars and congregating at stops. Anyone who's ridden a rural service or an hourly route will know what you mean. I'm not surprised people are grumbling about the revised timetable - a 70min headway is awful. I suspect the half hourly improvement is to avoid the perception that Chelsfield is getting a service reduction. Also a half hourly service is likely to be much more attractive to people using the E7 to Chislehurst station. If it's timed right it should connect with certain trains per hour and that might mean commuters actually use it. Ditto at Petts Wood station.
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Post by Paul on Feb 2, 2016 12:05:31 GMT
Driving the route for the past couple of years has taught me that the regular users are very possessive of 'their' route. They don't like change and are still complaining about the 'new' timetable even though it's been in operation for nearly a year now! They know they can get a bus at a certain time, do their shopping and get the next bus back Not having the stand at the Aquila or the Walnuts won't sit well with them either. Many of them, particularly at the Walnuts, congregate 10-15 minutes before departure and like to board as soon as the bus turns up I'm not saying any of this should be treated as genuine reasons not to change but there will be resistance and as drivers we are the ones who will be moaned at! I forgot to mention this earlier but the move to every 30 minutes is a strange one for me as well. Obviously I don't know how well patronised the R3 is between Orpington and Chelsfield Village but I can't imagine it's too dissimilar to the current R7 and at the moment it's not at all unusual to complete a trip at any time of the day having only seen three or four people. I think a 30 minute frequency is entirely unnecessary and the resources could be better deployed elsewhere Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean about the regulars and congregating at stops. Anyone who's ridden a rural service or an hourly route will know what you mean. I'm not surprised people are grumbling about the revised timetable - a 70min headway is awful. I suspect the half hourly improvement is to avoid the perception that Chelsfield is getting a service reduction. Also a half hourly service is likely to be much more attractive to people using the E7 to Chislehurst station. If it's timed right it should connect with certain trains per hour and that might mean commuters actually use it. Ditto at Petts Wood station. Whilst I fully agree that a half hourly service would be attractive to commuters for the stations, we are only talking about a couple of periods during the day. For the vast majority of the time, a half hourly R7 service will see buses running around virtually empty for most of the day. Just seems like a waste of resources to me Maybe I'll be proved wrong when the changes are implemented - after all, we all know what TfL consultations mean
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Post by jay38a on Feb 2, 2016 12:08:04 GMT
In what way do these changes mean that the route "is being taken away" from the regular users? It's not exactly being diverted away from anywhere - just lengthened. Is it fact there won't be a stand at Acquila or Walnuts Centre that's the issue? Driving the route for the past couple of years has taught me that the regular users are very possessive of 'their' route. They don't like change and are still complaining about the 'new' timetable even though it's been in operation for nearly a year now! They know they can get a bus at a certain time, do their shopping and get the next bus back Not having the stand at the Aquila or the Walnuts won't sit well with them either. Many of them, particularly at the Walnuts, congregate 10-15 minutes before departure and like to board as soon as the bus turns up I'm not saying any of this should be treated as genuine reasons not to change but there will be resistance and as drivers we are the ones who will be moaned at! I forgot to mention this earlier but the move to every 30 minutes is a strange one for me as well. Obviously I don't know how well patronised the R3 is between Orpington and Chelsfield Village but I can't imagine it's too dissimilar to the current R7 and at the moment it's not at all unusual to complete a trip at any time of the day having only seen three or four people. I think a 30 minute frequency is entirely unnecessary and the resources could be better deployed elsewhere The R3 your normally have a number of passengers say about 5-10 people to the top of Chaterhouse Road then your take maybe 1 or 2 to and from Chelsfeild Village.
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