Route K1 - Fixed Bus Stops

[routew15]

TfL has launched a consultation today to introduce fixed bus stops along route K1

K1 consultation page

^{-diagram from consultation}

The changes would see fixed stops along Barnsbury Lane, Warren Drive South and Knollmead, and Southwood Drive. With 4 Southbound and 5 Northbound.

Surveys have shown that route K1 buses often stop several times in a short distance in this area. This means the service is prone to disruption. Fixed stops would improve punctuality and allow us to more accurately predict the journey time.

-quote from the consultation page

Similarly to the 284 consultation on fixed stop there are zoomed in map on the specific bus stop locations.

Do note these changes do depend on The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames carrying their own consultation. Let's hope this doesn't turn into another Rookwood Road development.

Consultation closes Sunday 20 March

[snowman]

This scheme is now progressing and detailed plans of the stops are now available
One of the proposed stops includes a bus cage (road marking) over 30m long which seems bit excessive for a route with 9m buses

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s69735/Annex%201%20-%20Proposed%20sites.pdf

[snoggle]

Sept 19, 2016 18:05:37 GMT snowman said:

This scheme is now progressing and detailed plans of the stops are now available
One of the proposed stops includes a bus cage (road marking) over 30m long which seems bit excessive for a route with 9m buses

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s69735/Annex%201%20-%20Proposed%20sites.pdf

Perhaps the route will be the trial for Sadiq's top secret ADL Enviro E200H "mini bendy bendy" double articulated 27m long "midi"buses??

Interesting that TfL haven't actually issued a result from their consultation yet.

[mondraker275]

Did not see this consultation at all. Nice to see a fixed stop consultation. Now there is a route that I have been banging on to Tfl about to get fixed stops. The W11.

In March 2017, there will be new buses, new company (possibly drivers), new timetables and maybe even a new routing. This seemed the optimum time to get rid of the Hail and Ride section in South Countess Road and Millfield Avenue. In my recent bang on the door, TfL have said that there may not be sufficient space for fixed stops. Lies. Plenty of spaces. Its a wonder how they cannot fit stops on the wide W11 roads, but the parallel Highham Hill Road for W15 which is much smaller in width, has 8 stops (7 with shelters).

Watch this space on the W11's Hail and Ride section.

[snoggle]

Sept 23, 2016 7:49:49 GMT mondraker275 said:

Did not see this consultation at all. Nice to see a fixed stop consultation. Now there is a route that I have been banging on to Tfl about to get fixed stops. The W11.

In March 2017, there will be new buses, new company (possibly drivers), new timetables and maybe even a new routing. This seemed the optimum time to get rid of the Hail and Ride section in South Countess Road and Millfield Avenue. In my recent bang on the door, TfL have said that there may not be sufficient space for fixed stops. Lies. Plenty of spaces. Its a wonder how they cannot fit stops on the wide W11 roads, but the parallel Highham Hill Road for W15 which is much smaller in width, has 8 stops (7 with shelters).

Watch this space on the W11's Hail and Ride section.

You and I will fall out over this. I use the Hail and Ride section on the W11. There is no reason at all for it to be abandoned. I have never seen a problem with it at all. Locals understand it perfectly well. So do the drivers. It gives people a convenient and useful service - including a regular wheelchair user and their carer. If you try to have fixed stops then all that happens is you will get a furore over loss of parking spaces and defined stops outside people's properties. At present many of the "stops" are in convenient locations that cause no such grief. It's not even as if the bus stops every 20cm because people are "taking the p*ss" over the Hail and Ride facility.

Care to say why you are in such an apparent "rage" to get rid of the Hail and Ride? I didn't think you even lived on the route so why the animosity?

Judging by the reaction to the bus being curtailed at the Fire Stn yesterday from mums going to collect their kids from school on Palmerston Rd they're in for a bloomin' great shock come next March when they have to change buses!

[mondraker275]

Sept 23, 2016 9:01:41 GMT snoggle said:

Sept 23, 2016 7:49:49 GMT mondraker275 said:

Did not see this consultation at all. Nice to see a fixed stop consultation. Now there is a route that I have been banging on to Tfl about to get fixed stops. The W11.

In March 2017, there will be new buses, new company (possibly drivers), new timetables and maybe even a new routing. This seemed the optimum time to get rid of the Hail and Ride section in South Countess Road and Millfield Avenue. In my recent bang on the door, TfL have said that there may not be sufficient space for fixed stops. Lies. Plenty of spaces. Its a wonder how they cannot fit stops on the wide W11 roads, but the parallel Highham Hill Road for W15 which is much smaller in width, has 8 stops (7 with shelters).

Watch this space on the W11's Hail and Ride section.

You and I will fall out over this. I use the Hail and Ride section on the W11. There is no reason at all for it to be abandoned. I have never seen a problem with it at all. Locals understand it perfectly well. So do the drivers. It gives people a convenient and useful service - including a regular wheelchair user and their carer. If you try to have fixed stops then all that happens is you will get a furore over loss of parking spaces and defined stops outside people's properties. At present many of the "stops" are in convenient locations that cause no such grief. It's not even as if the bus stops every 20cm because people are "taking the p*ss" over the Hail and Ride facility.

Care to say why you are in such an apparent "rage" to get rid of the Hail and Ride? I didn't think you even lived on the route so why the animosity?

Judging by the reaction to the bus being curtailed at the Fire Stn yesterday from mums going to collect their kids from school on Palmerston Rd they're in for a bloomin' great shock come next March when they have to change buses!

Let the fall out begin!

Maybe its the fact I am not a regular user that makes me see it completely differently.

My experience on the W11 H&R:

Dont know where to stand. Well, its a H&R, you stand anywhere, right? No, people (locals) overtime have made invisible 'bus stops'. So a local who I visited told me to wait 'there' for the bus. 'There' was a patch of grass. Once, I got driven past by a driver, as I was not in a known stopping area, although where I was standing was completely safe for the bus to stop. If you cant Hail a bus then there is no point having a H&R.

No Countdown facility. Yeah, I can use the stops at the ends of the H&R and estimate when the bus is coming, but wait if I had a stop, then I would not need to do that, and thats better. I also could have had somewhere to sit while I wait for the bus. I could have had a map of the area, to find the Prior Court Centre. I could have known when that last bus was.

Anyway, what I am trying to get at, is the H&R should be used in special circumstances and areas. The W11 passengers would benefit more with fixed stops. With the accessibility even disable passengers would have clear areas to get to the stops and wait, and board. Much better than it is now. Elderly passengers would benefit more from shelters/sits. I once saw an old lady pushing her trolley over the grassy bank to board the bus, so this must happen regularly.

Having fixed stops does not mean that bus stops are going to be on peoples front gardens. Most sections on the H&R are so wide they have footway car parking. If the fixed stops were placed there then there would be the pavement separating the stop/shelter and the residents. Its not like Higham Hill Road.
This is not a new route, therefore buses if they were stopping outside peoples homes, it would make no difference with fixed stops. You usually have bins with fixed stops with shelters, and therefore reduce littering in local residents.

You cant say passengers would not want any of these things.

Yeah parking maybe lost, but it may not be either.

There will be a new stop on Forest Road just before the fire station, so one 'invisible' bus stop will go, so its a matter of time.

I doubt generally, that passengers would reject a proposal for fixed stops, but if they do then I would respect their decision.

[snoggle]

Sept 24, 2016 10:00:03 GMT mondraker275 said:

Let the fall out begin!

Maybe its the fact I am not a regular user that makes me see it completely differently.

My experience on the W11 H&R:

Dont know where to stand. Well, its a H&R, you stand anywhere, right? No, people (locals) overtime have made invisible 'bus stops'. So a local who I visited told me to wait 'there' for the bus. 'There' was a patch of grass. Once, I got driven past by a driver, as I was not in a known stopping area, although where I was standing was completely safe for the bus to stop. If you cant Hail a bus then there is no point having a H&R.

No Countdown facility. Yeah, I can use the stops at the ends of the H&R and estimate when the bus is coming, but wait if I had a stop, then I would not need to do that, and thats better. I also could have had somewhere to sit while I wait for the bus. I could have had a map of the area, to find the Prior Court Centre. I could have known when that last bus was.

Anyway, what I am trying to get at, is the H&R should be used in special circumstances and areas. The W11 passengers would benefit more with fixed stops. With the accessibility even disable passengers would have clear areas to get to the stops and wait, and board. Much better than it is now. Elderly passengers would benefit more from shelters/sits. I once saw an old lady pushing her trolley over the grassy bank to board the bus, so this must happen regularly.

Having fixed stops does not mean that bus stops are going to be on peoples front gardens. Most sections on the H&R are so wide they have footway car parking. If the fixed stops were placed there then there would be the pavement separating the stop/shelter and the residents. Its not like Higham Hill Road.
This is not a new route, therefore buses if they were stopping outside peoples homes, it would make no difference with fixed stops. You usually have bins with fixed stops with shelters, and therefore reduce littering in local residents.

You cant say passengers would not want any of these things.

Yeah parking maybe lost, but it may not be either.

There will be a new stop on Forest Road just before the fire station, so one 'invisible' bus stop will go, so its a matter of time.

I doubt generally, that passengers would reject a proposal for fixed stops, but if they do then I would respect their decision.

Thanks for replying. So on the basis of using it a couple of times you've decided it doesn't work? While you are obviously entitled to your opinion I do not see why you are leading a "campaign" to change something on a route you barely use. If I was being rude (I'm not btw) I could say you were being vexatious for no good reason.

My concern is that when you apply the rules for bus stop locations and layouts the number of permissible stops will reduce significantly meaning longer walking distances for people. Some will cope with that but others will not. I strongly suspect some of the likely stop locations preclude the use of shelters because there is not sufficient pavement space to allow people to sit and others to pass unimpeded. Therefore you end up no further forward. I have to say I've seen no great evidence of any littering where people wait so no need for bins either. Anyway the council could provide free standing bins if it wished - not TfL's responsibility.

TfL could create virtual stops on the W11 hail and ride section if it wanted to. It did them for the 434 for example. Problem is that it's a "balls aching" process and needs several different teams to do the right thing to get it done. Given the glacial rate at which routes gain virtual stops you can see there are problems. Given TfL have recently cancelled a load of IT projects and sacked a load of contract staff (i.e. people in IT) then don't expect much progress on TfL's website being updated with "fripperies" like pretent bus stops. It seems they've stopped updating the TfL Digital Blog with service update info for developers so there's an immediate cut in evidence.

I am sure you're right that if presented as a binary option many people would like shelters and seats. However when presented as a choice in context with consequences like fewer stops, no shelters in reality and issues related to parking spaces and highway alterations (crossings and speed chicances / humps) you will get a rather different result plus added resistance from non bus users. Unless TfL were to actually put leaflets through people's door on Priory Court and Millfield Av and surrounding streets then I doubt many people would see a consultation. I fully expect a lot of people will get one hell of a fright and be pretty cross when the W11 is diverted via Blackhorse Rd next March. Can't see the mums going to collect their kids on the bus I used last Thursday being enamoured with an enforced change to / from the W15. I am deeply sceptical that people using the W11 are remotely aware of what's about to happen.

[snoggle]

Shock horror TfL have reached a conclusion on a consultation! Yes they have reached a conclusion about removing hail and ride on the K1.

Now we just need the 167, 178 and 271 consultations finalised to clear out the dead wood from March time. Then it's on to the delights on the W11, 5, Finchley Rd consultations.

Between 5 February and 20 March 2016 we consulted stakeholders and the public about proposed changes to bus route K1. The proposal was to improve bus accessibility, reliability and information by introducing fixed bus stops along a section of route K1 in the Sunray and Egmont Estates in Tolworth, replacing the existing Hail and Ride facility.

Details of the consultation can be found below.

consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/k1/user_uploads/consultation-report-route-k1.pdf

We received responses from 128 members of the public and five stakeholder groups. We also received a petition representing the views of 524 local residents.

Thank you to everyone who took part.

We have carefully considered the responses and the petition.

We have decided to progress with the scheme but have made some changes to it. We have a duty under the Equality Act (2010) to act so that disabled people are not disadvantaged, and there is a strong case for introducing fixed bus stops in this area on the grounds of frequency, patronage growth and frequent stops.

A final decision to introduce fixed bus stops and remove the Hail and Ride facility in the Sunray and Egmont Estates is subject to the agreement of the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames and the outcome of further statutory consultation by that Borough on Traffic Management Orders at some of the locations.

Support for the Proposal

There was considerable variation in the level of support for the proposal, including for the principle of removing Hail and Ride, for the provision of fixed bus stops in general, and for the proposed individual fixed bus stop sites. Of the members of the public responding directly to us, the majority of those living directly on the affected section of the route were opposed to the proposal and the majority of those living elsewhere were supportive of it. The petition strongly opposed the proposed bus stops and shelters. There was also wide variation in support from the stakeholder groups.

Revised Scheme

We have developed a revised scheme which responds to some of the issues raised in the consultation.

consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/k1/user_uploads/revised-scheme-and-responses-to-the-main-issues-raised.pdf-1

This summarises of our responses to the main issues and shows full details of the revised scheme.

In particular, the revised scheme:

- changes the locations of five of the fixed bus stops and adds one additional fixed bus stop, reducing the gaps between some of the stops

- provides new parking spaces, replacing all of the existing parking removed by the new fixed bus stops

- no longer includes bus shelters at this stage

- no longer includes two of the three proposed footway buildouts (bus boarders) or the footpath widening near Site 4

Next Steps

Our consultation report, decision to progress with the scheme, revised scheme, and our responses to the main issues raised will be presented to the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames' Surbiton Neighbourhood Committee meeting on 7 December 2016 for comments. It will then be considered at that Borough's Residents Committee meeting on 8 December 2016 for resolution.

Subject to the outcome of the Residents Committee meeting, the new or amended restrictions on parking and loading at some of the locations would then be subject to the outcome of separate statutory consultation on the required Traffic Management Orders. This would be carried out in January 2017 by the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames.

Subject to a final decision to proceed, we would then work with the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames to install the new fixed bus stops and the new parking bays, and introduce the new or amended restrictions on parking and loading, by the end of March 2017. After this, the Hail and Ride facility would no longer apply in the Sunray and Egmont Estates.

End of update

[vjaska]

Oct 25, 2016 21:22:17 GMT snoggle said:

Shock horror TfL have reached a conclusion on a consultation! Yes they have reached a conclusion about removing hail and ride on the K1.

Now we just need the 167, 178 and 271 consultations finalised to clear out the dead wood from March time. Then it's on to the delights on the W11, 5, Finchley Rd consultations.

Between 5 February and 20 March 2016 we consulted stakeholders and the public about proposed changes to bus route K1. The proposal was to improve bus accessibility, reliability and information by introducing fixed bus stops along a section of route K1 in the Sunray and Egmont Estates in Tolworth, replacing the existing Hail and Ride facility.

Details of the consultation can be found below.

consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/k1/user_uploads/consultation-report-route-k1.pdf

We received responses from 128 members of the public and five stakeholder groups. We also received a petition representing the views of 524 local residents.

Thank you to everyone who took part.

We have carefully considered the responses and the petition.

We have decided to progress with the scheme but have made some changes to it. We have a duty under the Equality Act (2010) to act so that disabled people are not disadvantaged, and there is a strong case for introducing fixed bus stops in this area on the grounds of frequency, patronage growth and frequent stops.

A final decision to introduce fixed bus stops and remove the Hail and Ride facility in the Sunray and Egmont Estates is subject to the agreement of the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames and the outcome of further statutory consultation by that Borough on Traffic Management Orders at some of the locations.

Support for the Proposal

There was considerable variation in the level of support for the proposal, including for the principle of removing Hail and Ride, for the provision of fixed bus stops in general, and for the proposed individual fixed bus stop sites. Of the members of the public responding directly to us, the majority of those living directly on the affected section of the route were opposed to the proposal and the majority of those living elsewhere were supportive of it. The petition strongly opposed the proposed bus stops and shelters. There was also wide variation in support from the stakeholder groups.

Revised Scheme

We have developed a revised scheme which responds to some of the issues raised in the consultation.

consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/k1/user_uploads/revised-scheme-and-responses-to-the-main-issues-raised.pdf-1

This summarises of our responses to the main issues and shows full details of the revised scheme.

In particular, the revised scheme:

- changes the locations of five of the fixed bus stops and adds one additional fixed bus stop, reducing the gaps between some of the stops

- provides new parking spaces, replacing all of the existing parking removed by the new fixed bus stops

- no longer includes bus shelters at this stage

- no longer includes two of the three proposed footway buildouts (bus boarders) or the footpath widening near Site 4

Next Steps

Our consultation report, decision to progress with the scheme, revised scheme, and our responses to the main issues raised will be presented to the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames' Surbiton Neighbourhood Committee meeting on 7 December 2016 for comments. It will then be considered at that Borough's Residents Committee meeting on 8 December 2016 for resolution.

Subject to the outcome of the Residents Committee meeting, the new or amended restrictions on parking and loading at some of the locations would then be subject to the outcome of separate statutory consultation on the required Traffic Management Orders. This would be carried out in January 2017 by the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames.

Subject to a final decision to proceed, we would then work with the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames to install the new fixed bus stops and the new parking bays, and introduce the new or amended restrictions on parking and loading, by the end of March 2017. After this, the Hail and Ride facility would no longer apply in the Sunray and Egmont Estates.

End of update

It seems those residents were afraid of youths congregating at bus stop shelters as otherwise, I can't really think why they would oppose their installation. Also, implementing new parking spaces sends out the wrong message in trying to get more people away from cars and onto public transport.

[snowman]

This proposal has reached Kingston Council for debate, there are a series of consultation responses (not available on the TfL website) which show views are split, interestingly it notes locals are majority against, but supporters of fixed stops live outside the area.

Council link

Don't know which way councillors will vote, but it seems they rejected a fixed stop scheme few years ago.

[snoggle]

Nov 30, 2016 9:59:55 GMT snowman said:

This proposal has reached Kingston Council for debate, there are a series of consultation responses (not available on the TfL website) which show views are split, interestingly it notes locals are majority against, but supporters of fixed stops live outside the area.

Council link

Don't know which way councillors will vote, but it seems they rejected a fixed stop scheme few years ago.

What a bloomin' farce. How much money has been wasted on this? Other hail and ride sections have been scrapped recently without any consultation whatsoever. Either other boroughs and TfL are ignoring the law or Kingston Council are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[John tuthill]

Nov 30, 2016 12:58:46 GMT snoggle said:

Nov 30, 2016 9:59:55 GMT snowman said:

This proposal has reached Kingston Council for debate, there are a series of consultation responses (not available on the TfL website) which show views are split, interestingly it notes locals are majority against, but supporters of fixed stops live outside the area.

Council link

Don't know which way councillors will vote, but it seems they rejected a fixed stop scheme few years ago.

What a bloomin' farce. How much money has been wasted on this? Other hail and ride sections have been scrapped recently without any consultation whatsoever. Either other boroughs and TfL are ignoring the law or Kingston Council are making a mountain out of a molehill.?

As a resident of KBC I'd say yes. The farce of the Portsmouth Rd cycle lane for one, and STILL no carriage way markings for the vehicular side

[mondraker275]

Nov 30, 2016 9:59:55 GMT snowman said:

This proposal has reached Kingston Council for debate, there are a series of consultation responses (not available on the TfL website) which show views are split, interestingly it notes locals are majority against, but supporters of fixed stops live outside the area.

Council link

Don't know which way councillors will vote, but it seems they rejected a fixed stop scheme few years ago.

Councillors know little about anything from my experience, especially services they dont use or take.

The thing about this consultation, is that you have a couple of residents usually non-bus users, who have gone around knocking on doors, scare mongering other residents into thinking something so beneficial is going to make their lives a nightmare. 500 signatures later, and a few complaints to councillors, you have it reach the cabinet level. Nonsense.

The removal of bus shelters is the most baffling aspect of the revised proposal. Since when in any one's right mind are bus shelters a HQ for gangs?? A bench in poorly lit park at night maybe.. but bus stops? TfL suddenly back track on bus stop shelters that would help elderly, provide light, a bin, shelter from the rain because of scare mongering.

Suddenly the R2 proposals dont have any shelters as well.

[snowman]

Believe it or not the proposed changes are still being debated, 13 months on

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s72703/Annexes%203%20and%204.pdf

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s72700/K1Bus%20stops%20Surbiton%20report.pdf

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=609&MId=7969

The links are the legal opinion, there is a need to provide wheelchair accessible boarding, but making people who can't walk far, go further to a stop is against Act. Second link is some background and gives examples of how TfL uses statistics, third link is the agenda to the (open to the public) council meeting where it is being debated. It appears all sorts of changes have been made including dropping bus shelters (is this really an improveme), the whole mess is because TfL thought that paving over grass verges would automatically be acceptable. Having apparently forgotten that people choose to live where there are verges as it makes streets look nicer (providing they are mowed properly of course)

[snoggle]

Mar 21, 2017 8:05:21 GMT snowman said:

Believe it or not the proposed changes are still being debated, 13 months on

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s72703/Annexes%203%20and%204.pdf

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s72700/K1Bus%20stops%20Surbiton%20report.pdf

moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=609&MId=7969

The links are the legal opinion, there is a need to provide wheelchair accessible boarding, but making people who can't walk far, go further to a stop is against Act. Second link is some background and gives examples of how TfL uses statistics, third link is the agenda to the (open to the public) council meeting where it is being debated. It appears all sorts of changes have been made including dropping bus shelters (is this really an improveme), the whole mess is because TfL thought that paving over grass verges would automatically be acceptable. Having apparently forgotten that people choose to live where there are verges as it makes streets look nicer (providing they are mowed properly of course)

thanks for the update. I had been wondering what had happened to this scheme. Oddly I am sure I read recently that Kingston borough had achieved 100% accessible stops which is what made me think about this scheme.