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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2016 19:32:48 GMT
Swapping the 108 and D8 terminuses at Stratford makes sense I guess, it's not like the 108 is converting to DD anytime soon. What I don't like it rerouting of the 108 along Langdon Park. The route is busy enough as it is, I don't see how anyone who uses the 108 will benefit from this. The only route in the area linking north to south and TFL are doing everything to make it as indirect as possible (and forcing people to use the Jubilee Line?). Also have doubts about 12m buses making it along the current D8 route... You make a good point here in regards to having doubts about 12m buses along that part of the route. When I did the D8 end to end, the route from All Saints to Bow Church goes along narrow roads with parked cars and I really can't see 12m buses doing that route though TfL have stated putting longer buses out so I wonder if they will end having to admit they are wrong for once? I do like the idea of switching both routes at All Saints but there are problems - the traffic leading to the Blackwall Tunnel could screw up the D8 whilst the 108 will continue to suffer as now so the area could have two unreliable routes rather than one and the 108 would be much longer as well which could further hamper reliability.
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 8, 2016 19:42:26 GMT
The only change i would make to the 108 would be to remove that deviation at bow church in the southbound direction to improve journey time and reliability.
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Post by danorak on Feb 8, 2016 20:02:33 GMT
I think for the new proposal I don't know if D7 is single decker but if it is extend it to Deptford Bridge via Blackwall Tunnel. Or add an other route to the Blackwall Tunnel The D7 is double decker. But I agree, the Blackwell Tunnel needs another route. Ideally one from North London, terminating at North Greenwich? The 488 has been suggested in the past, seeing as it is already restricted to single deckers. There is a note about the Highbury scheme on this consultation, but the Highbury one remains silent on this one. I suppose they would argue that as the 277 will no longer serve Highbury Corner, any other changes are irrelevant in that context.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 20:37:17 GMT
This will make the D8 a pretty tiny route Stratford down the A12 then to Crossharbour.
Would have been good if the D3 could have been extended to Canning Town Station via Leamouth but might have made the route too long.
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Post by thesquirrels on Feb 8, 2016 21:11:32 GMT
Considering that TfL are intending to hack away the western end of the 277 I think they could have been a bit more bold with route options in the Docklands!
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Post by ThinLizzy on Feb 8, 2016 21:18:30 GMT
Don't think 12m buses will be able to run on the new 108 routing. I think it's (ironically) 10.8m buses for the 108 then! The proposals mention larger single decker for the 108- I think you can get a 12m single deck along the D8, I've certainly seen one on rail replacement do it
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Post by ThinLizzy on Feb 8, 2016 21:23:35 GMT
To be honest, I really can't see the point of most of this. The D8 corridor between Bow and Canary Wharf already has a frequent rail, well used rail service running parallel that will be gaining capacity enhancements and frequency enhancents as more residential buildings are built.
Apart from the 277 diverting to a more useful destination, it just appears TfL have caught the Claudio Rannieri bug and are tinkering for the sake of tinkering
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2016 21:58:32 GMT
Don't think 12m buses will be able to run on the new 108 routing. I think it's (ironically) 10.8m buses for the 108 then! The proposals mention larger single decker for the 108- I think you can get a 12m single deck along the 108, I've certainly seen one on rail replacement do it The 108 has at least one MEC allocated so it's fine along the current route but that uses wide roads whereas the D8 uses narrow roads between All Saints & Bow Church so it'll be interesting to see what happens especially as the main bulk of the vehicles allocated to the 108 are already 10.8m.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Feb 8, 2016 21:59:56 GMT
The proposals mention larger single decker for the 108- I think you can get a 12m single deck along the 108, I've certainly seen one on rail replacement do it The 108 has at least one MEC allocated so it's fine along the current route but that uses wide roads whereas the D8 uses narrow roads between All Saints & Bow Church so it'll be interesting to see what happens especially as the main bulk of the vehicles allocated to the 108 are already 10.8m. Sorry, I meant along the D8 route- it's been a long day I started work at 5 this morning
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2016 22:02:48 GMT
I agree with the 277 & D3 switching terminus as well as the re-routing away from Aspen Way. I also think it's about time the D7 got some extra help as its get rammed during the peaks from experience so I support the 135 re-routing as well.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2016 22:03:23 GMT
The 108 has at least one MEC allocated so it's fine along the current route but that uses wide roads whereas the D8 uses narrow roads between All Saints & Bow Church so it'll be interesting to see what happens especially as the main bulk of the vehicles allocated to the 108 are already 10.8m. Sorry, I meant along the D8 route- it's been a long day I started work at 5 this morning No worries, you cleared up my fears in the process as well lol.
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Post by danorak on Feb 8, 2016 22:41:24 GMT
The proposals mention larger single decker for the 108- I think you can get a 12m single deck along the 108, I've certainly seen one on rail replacement do it The 108 has at least one MEC allocated so it's fine along the current route but that uses wide roads whereas the D8 uses narrow roads between All Saints & Bow Church so it'll be interesting to see what happens especially as the main bulk of the vehicles allocated to the 108 are already 10.8m. I don't think the section between All Saints & Bow should be too problematical - it's mostly straight and if an MEC can negotiate Westcombe Hill, this shouldn't be too much of an issue. Am I right in thinking the 108 tender announcement is due? Reading between the lines, the text of the consultation does seem to hint towards cascaded MECs. I should add that, having read the text, I'm broadly in favour of these changes. I'll be interested to see the reaction to the loss of service along Spindrift Avenue though: there's a large NHS Medical Centre there and I imagine those with mobility issues may well have something to say about that.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 8, 2016 23:39:54 GMT
Having had a look at the detail a few comments.
1. Agree that Westferry Road is tremendously busy. When I rode the IOD routes they were all stupidly busy round there and that was off peak / PM schools time. The real peak must be dreadful so adding more double decks makes sense.
2. With the arrival of Wood Wharf redevelopment in a few years then there will be more demand on Prestons Road / east end of Canary Wharf so not entirely sure TfL have got this right by putting the D3 through there and reducing M-F frequencies on the D7. IME the D7 is busy out of All Saints so a frequency cut there may not work. The D7 has had soaring demand in recent years.
3. Really not at all sure about the D8 / 108 swap. Without a detailed view of journey patterns it's impossible to know just what's being broken here. IME the 108 has a reasonable number of trips from south of the Thames to the A12 corridor so breaking those links may not be popular. Furthermore interchange at the Blackwall Tunnel area is ghastly and people will need to cross the road at All Saints to change between the 108 and D8. Can't see that being popular or safe if people try to dash across the road.
4. Again limited experience of the D8 but it struck me as very busy between south of All Saints and the section north thereof. Would like to see the number of through journeys being broken.
5. The stats do show the D3 has had a big drop in patronage so perhaps understandable to swap it. Serving Blackwall Avenue looks sensible to me but Streetview shows it as not a through road at present. I assume that's changed. Patronage to Leamouth on the 277 was thin when I rode it so sending DDs along there probably is a waste.
6. Bigger buses on the 108 is long overdue so good that it appears to be happening.
7. I'm ambivalent about whether the 108 runs to Stratford City or not. In some ways it'd be more convenient for me as it would connect with the 97. However I can see there being issues with people who use it from Stratford / Stratford Broadway. It loads very well from those stops so sending it through the Olympic Park may upset a lot of people depending on where they are going. It also breaks a simple interchange for night travellers at Stratford Bus Station. Having to schlep from Stratford City or change buses on Stratford High Street to a 25 and then possibly again to a N86 won't please people. On the sole occasion I used the N108 there were plenty of people off the N108 and on to other buses (warnings about tiny sample size apply). I'd be tempted not to send the N108 to Stratford City and actually create a real N108 running to Stratford Bus Station.
8. Not familiar with demand on Spindrift Avenue but as there is a health facility there (as stated in another post) then removing a service seems rather daft given how much people rely on buses to access such places. Spindrift Avenue is also fairly long so it's a bit of cut for people although there aren't many stops on the road. There doesn't seem to be anything stopping a double deck going down there but I guess TfL don't want any diverting off the main drag.
So overall not bad in terms of adding capacity to the south end of the IOD but not terribly sure about the rest. There seems to be a lot of broken links for no good reason. Do people at Langdon Park really have an insatiable urge to reach the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich? I mean really?!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 0:24:31 GMT
Having had a look at the detail a few comments. 1. Agree that Westferry Road is tremendously busy. When I rode the IOD routes they were all stupidly busy round there and that was off peak / PM schools time. The real peak must be dreadful so adding more double decks makes sense. 2. With the arrival of Wood Wharf redevelopment in a few years then there will be more demand on Prestons Road / east end of Canary Wharf so not entirely sure TfL have got this right by putting the D3 through there and reducing M-F frequencies on the D7. IME the D7 is busy out of All Saints so a frequency cut there may not work. The D7 has had soaring demand in recent years. 3. Really not at all sure about the D8 / 108 swap. Without a detailed view of journey patterns it's impossible to know just what's being broken here. IME the 1 With 08 has a reasonable number of trips from south of the Thames to the A12 corridor so breaking those links may not be popular. Furthermore interchange at the Blackwall Tunnel area is ghastly and people will need to cross the road at All Saints to change between the 108 and D8. Can't see that being popular or safe if people try to dash across the road. 4. Again limited experience of the D8 but it struck me as very busy between south of All Saints and the section north thereof. Would like to see the number of through journeys being broken. 5. The stats do show the D3 has had a big drop in patronage so perhaps understandable to swap it. Serving Blackwall Avenue looks sensible to me but Streetview shows it as not a through road at present. I assume that's changed. Patronage to Leamouth on the 277 was thin when I rode it so sending DDs along there probably is a waste. 6. Bigger buses on the 108 is long overdue so good that it appears to be happening. 7. I'm ambivalent about whether the 108 runs to Stratford City or not. In some ways it'd be more convenient for me as it would connect with the 97. However I can see there being issues with people who use it from Stratford / Stratford Broadway. It loads very well from those stops so sending it through the Olympic Park may upset a lot of people depending on where they are going. It also breaks a simple interchange for night travellers at Stratford Bus Station. Having to schlep from Stratford City or change buses on Stratford High Street to a 25 and then possibly again to a N86 won't please people. On the sole occasion I used the N108 there were plenty of people off the N108 and on to other buses (warnings about tiny sample size apply). I'd be tempted not to send the N108 to Stratford City and actually create a real N108 running to Stratford Bus Station. 8. Not familiar with demand on Spindrift Avenue but as there is a health facility there (as stated in another post) then removing a service seems rather daft given how much people rely on buses to access such places. Spindrift Avenue is also fairly long so it's a bit of cut for people although there aren't many stops on the road. There doesn't seem to be anything stopping a double deck going down there but I guess TfL don't want any diverting off the main drag. So overall not bad in terms of adding capacity to the south end of the IOD but not terribly sure about the rest. There seems to be a lot of broken links for no good reason. Do people at Langdon Park really have an insatiable urge to reach the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich? I mean really?! With regards to 3, the swap between the D8 and 108 would be necessary if the D8 is to use deckers, thanks to the low bridge on Carpenters Road. Seems odd the D7 is now being cut again after numerous frequency increases.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 9, 2016 0:58:45 GMT
With regards to 3, the swap between the D8 and 108 would be necessary if the D8 is to use deckers, thanks to the low bridge on Carpenters Road. Seems odd the D7 is now being cut again after numerous frequency increases. Yes I understand the point about DDs on the D8. However I'd ask whether it is really necessary to serve Carpenters Road given it was unserved for a very long time. You could run the D8 via Wharton Road, as it did initially, and use double deckers without any issue. Therefore you could simply make a minor change to the D8 and run DDs as happened during the Olympics (albeit a different route back then into Stratford). This then pretty much removes any great need to swap the 108 and D8 at all. I suspect that would be easier overall. It is interesting that on this relatively involved set of changes there are no supporting presentations or data whereas some other recent consultations have had some detail - the 83/483 for example. I agree the D7 change is odd and I suspect TfL would end up having to put resource back once Wood Wharf is finished. If you look on Google Maps then a new indicative road called Harbour Quay is shown and I suspect that might end up needing a bus route on it - possibly the D3 or the D6.
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