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Post by snoggle on Jan 19, 2017 11:40:03 GMT
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Post by sid on Jan 19, 2017 12:59:32 GMT
As a grandparent and occasional buggy pusher I don't agree with any of this, this woman sounds typical of the "I had to struggle with my kids so why should they have it easy" brigade. Things have moved forward since then and not only on public transport, there are very few shops with steps nowadays and the few that have generally have ramps to make life easier for everybody. As far as I can see Mr Paulley hasn't won at all. Did the court really say that the bus driver in question should have forced mother and toddler to vacate the space? I understood that they just suggested that operators should do more than just ask the person? Like what ask them twice perhaps, maybe three times? And what if they are still unable or unwilling to move? The court should have made clear exactly what they expect to be done otherwise the whole thing is a fudge. Ideally able bodied people should always help those who are disabled, that is just common etiquette and from my observations most people are more than happy to do so but inevitably there will always be occasions when this just isn't possible. How on earth is a parent on their own going to get a small child out of a buggy and fold it up? Hand the child to a complete stranger? Of course if the buggy is laden with shopping that just compounds the problem. Can you imagine the headlines "bus driver leaves mother and toddler in tears at the roadside"? Clearly no bus driver, or even a police officer come to that, is going to forcibly remove parent and buggy from a bus. It can only ever be first come first served, it's not perfect but few things in life are.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 13:12:41 GMT
I've always thought the answer was obvious. If a pushchair can be folded and it's empty except for the child, remove said child and fold it (the chair, not the child).
There are occasions when it's not that simple like has been mentioned so then it's first come first served. Work it as a tough luck scenario for both wheelchair users and buggy pushers so that they are treated equally in that respect when the priority area is full. Essentially that will be up to the driver which is not ideal but it's their vehicle and they are responsible for the safe carriage of their customers.
The situation has got muddied because not only do wheelchair users and buggy pushers fight each other for the space, they sometimes think other transport users should get off a packed bus so they can get on. That's just not how it works.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 19, 2017 17:39:17 GMT
While everyone is pontificating about the rights and wrongs of the case perhaps they could take a moment (well quite a big moment) to read all 53 pages of the judgement which sets out the event history and what the law says. You can then decide for yourself if the law is an ass or not. It is worth noting that not all of the Judges actually agreed with each other and there was dissent on certain points of legal interpretation / expected behaviours by service providers (in this case First Group). www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0025-judgment.pdf
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 9:02:06 GMT
While everyone is pontificating about the rights and wrongs of the case perhaps they could take a moment (well quite a big moment) to read all 53 pages of the judgement which sets out the event history and what the law says. You can then decide for yourself if the law is an ass or not. It is worth noting that not all of the Judges actually agreed with each other and there was dissent on certain points of legal interpretation / expected behaviours by service providers (in this case First Group). www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0025-judgment.pdfIt's amazing this case reached one of the highest courts in the land. And they've managed to write 53 pages about it, welll, what can I say....They should turn this into a film " based on real events " blah blah blah .......
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Post by John tuthill on Feb 1, 2017 14:14:25 GMT
TfL's update on the recent court case. No change in policy as TfL are still considering the implications. Offered solely for info and NOT to reignite the debate so please don't reignite it! THAT'S the point which should be made!
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Post by sid on Feb 1, 2017 14:36:49 GMT
TfL's update on the recent court case. No change in policy as TfL are still considering the implications. Offered solely for info and NOT to reignite the debate so please don't reignite it! THAT'S the point which should be made! Easier said than done though.
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Post by nickfreckle on Feb 1, 2017 19:10:26 GMT
Had three buggies squeezed on yesterday, and a 4th folded and in luggage rack. Wheel chair user wanted to get on at National maritime Museum, and they expected me to remove all three from the bus, despite me being very reasonable and full oi empathy for all of their their situations - both buggy users and wheelchair user.
However, I knew I was in for a difficult 5 minutes when the comment of 'We won the court case, and they HAVE to get off' was said to me. Thankfully, a 180 came in behind me soon after and that had room.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 2, 2017 0:03:41 GMT
Had three buggies squeezed on yesterday, and a 4th folded and in luggage rack. Wheel chair user wanted to get on at National maritime Museum, and they expected me to remove all three from the bus, despite me being very reasonable and full oi empathy for all of their their situations - both buggy users and wheelchair user. However, I knew I was in for a difficult 5 minutes when the comment of 'We won the court case, and they HAVE to get off' was said to me. Thankfully, a 180 came in behind me soon after and that had room. Rather than anyone having to get off, couldn't the other buggies be folded in order to allow the wheelchair user?
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Post by snowman on Feb 2, 2017 11:01:33 GMT
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Post by Paul on Feb 2, 2017 11:04:57 GMT
However, I knew I was in for a difficult 5 minutes when the comment of 'We won the court case, and they HAVE to get off' was said to me. Thankfully, a 180 came in behind me soon after and that had room. And that's exactly the problem drivers are going to face. Sadly, there are a number of wheelchair users who will misinterpret exactly what happened in that court case and who will completely ignore the recent TfL announcement saying their policy has not changed And the problem with that is as time goes on drivers will become less and less inclined to help the belligerent wheelchair user and this will spill over into not helping the more understanding wheelchair users who use the bus network And the saddest thing about the whole situation? All it needs is a little give and take from all parties and a dash of compassion and understanding. All sadly lacking in today's society
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 17:20:04 GMT
I like your posts generally but what a complete waste of time that was. This looks clearly to me like one of those occasions where people are looking for confrontation. Everybody knows that not only wheelchair users use the blue button to alert the driver that they want to get off. The bus stops yet no attempt is even made by the wheelchair user to head towards the exit... why not? Driver could easily have assumed that the user (or someone else) pressed it prematurely. To then close the doors, deploy the ramp only to retract it and head off again is time consuming, particularly with the issues buses have with these ramps. I also query the authenticity of the video... I'm not sure how many people record a floor just before an incident happens. Saw this before on another vid where someone is recording apparently nothing before two wheelchair users fight over who gets on the bus. Sensationalism.
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Post by nickfreckle on Feb 3, 2017 18:05:16 GMT
Had three buggies squeezed on yesterday, and a 4th folded and in luggage rack. Wheel chair user wanted to get on at National maritime Museum, and they expected me to remove all three from the bus, despite me being very reasonable and full oi empathy for all of their their situations - both buggy users and wheelchair user. However, I knew I was in for a difficult 5 minutes when the comment of 'We won the court case, and they HAVE to get off' was said to me. Thankfully, a 180 came in behind me soon after and that had room. Rather than anyone having to get off, couldn't the other buggies be folded in order to allow the wheelchair user? And put them where? There were three in the bay and one already folded in the rack. Two of them were the type you put small babies in, like a cradle on a wheeled stand if you know the type I mean. the other one was a small stroller.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 3, 2017 18:58:13 GMT
Rather than anyone having to get off, couldn't the other buggies be folded in order to allow the wheelchair user? And put them where? There were three in the bay and one already folded in the rack. Two of them were the type you put small babies in, like a cradle on a wheeled stand if you know the type I mean. the other one was a small stroller. The parent could simply hold it next to them in a folded condition.
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Post by sid on Feb 3, 2017 19:06:05 GMT
And put them where? There were three in the bay and one already folded in the rack. Two of them were the type you put small babies in, like a cradle on a wheeled stand if you know the type I mean. the other one was a small stroller. The parent could simply hold it next to them in a folded condition. What and hold the baby in their other arm whilst balancing whatever else they had on their head? It sounds like the wheelchair user was clearly looking for confrontation. First come first served and then there is no argument.
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