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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 19:25:28 GMT
I really cannot see too many drivers getting out of their cab and assisting with the folding of a buggy, something most men (myself included!) are notoriously hopeless at anyway. [/quote] Bus drivers are already under an obligation to leave the cab to assist wheelchair users to board, should the wheelchair user require it. This is maybe more of an issue for drivers outside of London, e.g. in West Yorkshire, where ramps can only be operated by the driver leaving the cab. Whilst I appreciate the difficulties and your concerns, you will probably understand why I disagree.
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Post by John tuthill on Feb 25, 2017 19:35:20 GMT
I really cannot see too many drivers getting out of their cab and assisting with the folding of a buggy, something most men (myself included!) are notoriously hopeless at anyway. Bus drivers are already under an obligation to leave the cab to assist wheelchair users to board, should the wheelchair user require it. This is maybe more of an issue for drivers outside of London, e.g. in West Yorkshire, where ramps can only be operated by the driver leaving the cab. Whilst I appreciate the difficulties and your concerns, you will probably understand why I disagree.[/quote] Sadly this scenario is not going to change overnight. Both sides seem to think they have a 'devine right' common sense and 'a give way' to those who really need it won't happen. My suggestion which will never happen, would be, alternate buses for one or the other, with suitable stickers on the front. I jyst pity the poor drivers who are between a rock and a hard place
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Post by nickfreckle on Feb 25, 2017 20:58:05 GMT
That's odd, as on more than one occasion, I've been advised not to leave the cab and assist a wheelchair user get on and off the bus due to risk of personal injury to myself. In other words, if I put my back out of something, the company ain't going to pay us sick for it.
I'll stay in my cab.
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Post by sid on Feb 25, 2017 21:28:07 GMT
That's odd, as on more than one occasion, I've been advised not to leave the cab and assist a wheelchair user get on and off the bus due to risk of personal injury to myself. In other words, if I put my back out of something, the company ain't going to pay us sick for it. I'll stay in my cab. I've certainly never seen a driver get out of the cab to assist, most wheelchair users have somebody with them anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 20:41:19 GMT
I still feel very uncomfortable he is still advocating drivers be prosecuted should they not get the bay cleared. That's not my position. My issue is that where a driver has refused a wheelchair user access when the wheelchair space is physically empty, he or she should be prosecuted. In the case in question, Kirsty Shepherd (the wheelchair user) was denied access by the bus driver even though the wheelchair space was empty. There was a buggy in the separate buggy space, but the wheelchair space was empty. In such circumstances I fail to see why drivers should escape legal sanction. It is a different matter when the space is physically occupied by somebody. Whilst there is theoretically a criminal liability on the bus driver to enable the wheelchair user to access the space if passengers and their effects can readily and reasonably be vacated to a different part of the bus, this is very much more of a grey area and I would not advocate legal action against the driver except in exceptional circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 20:44:40 GMT
@kingqueen , I can tell you now, we as drivers would love a LAW making buggy mum fold the buggies. That's great. So would I. If you would like to do so, please sign the Parliamentary petition asking for this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 21:33:54 GMT
You must have worked out by now that he will not change his position regardless of the impact. That is an unfair mischaracterisation. No; I have not at any point stated that the Supreme Court judgment is "criminal law". That is interpretation of the Equality Act 2010 which is civil law. What is criminal law is Section 24 of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981: The DFT have confirmed my interpretation: So the Conduct Regulations form criminal legal obligation on (amongst others) bus drivers, and failure to comply with these regulations is a criminal offence triable in magistrates court and which attracts a £500 fine and 3 points. The Conduct Regulations were amended in 2002 to include duties to wheelchair users; in the Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) (Amendment) Regulations 2002. The Government conducted a consultation on the Conduct Regulations, which reported back in 2016. The Government chose not to remove the section on drivers' duties towards disabled people: The regulations require, in Regulation 6, Also Further You may disagree with the law; you may choose not to comply with the law; but if you're a driver and you refuse to comply with it, you are committing a criminal offence. That's not hubris, or a misinterpretation, or overstating the matter - it's a simple fact that it is a criminal offence for a driver to refuse to allow a wheelchair user to board if the wheelchair space is empty or "passengers and their effects (in the space) can readily and reasonably vacate it by moving to another part of the vehicle." You're also committing a criminal offence if you refuse to operate the ramp or to provide assistance to a wheelchair user to enable them to board or alight, should they request it. I have every sympathy with bus drivers, who have basically been dumped in it by bus companies and by the Supreme Court judgment. However, instead of knowingly committing a criminal offence by refusing to meet the above legal obligations, I'd hope that drivers would put pressure on their employers to support them in carrying out their duties.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 21:55:10 GMT
I am not and never have been a bus driver, but those who do the job have enough to contend with, be it driving, dealing other road users, dealing with passengers etc and are grossly underpaid for doing what I see as a difficult job. I agree entirely. Frankly, I couldn't do it. I was a terrible driver anyway, when I could still drive; but even if I could drive well, the stress of other road users and passengers etc. would be too much. I have great respect for people who do this job (and a number of other similar ones.) I generally agree with you here too; with a couple of caveats. Firstly: bus drivers are already on the front line of having to deal with dangerous and antisocial passengers, as you've noted. Secondly where a driver needlessly refuses to allow a wheelchair user on board even though the wheelchair space is physically empty, is a much more serious matter than where there are apparently competing interests between existing occupants of the space and somebody getting on. I generally agree. However TfL are pretty clear, in their Big Red Book, as to what is required of drivers. Clearly wheelchair users should have priority, and indeed having been a buggy dad myself, I have folded my pushchair to allow space for a wheelchair. The line as to what to do when buggy mom won't fold her pushchair is not easy, if it were I think the judgement may have been different. Particularly important is education (for example better publicity) to set expectations that buggy mom should fold their pushchair to let a wheelchair passenger on. There is now some publicity, but much more is required. It is reasonable to expect the driver to tell buggy mom to fold her pushchair, but what if she doesn't. How many times must the driver tell buggy mom. If the driver stops the bus, how long for, particularly as doing that is a form of collective punishment not just against the passengers on the bus, but also those waiting ahead. What about double buggies or those that do not fold? Do bus companies ban non folding pushchairs, and if so what are parents who already have them supposed to do. There needs to be much more understanding all round, particularly for wheelchair passengers and education is the best way to achieve that. I agree entirely. These are issues that others have already wrestled with - e.g. Lothian's previous ban of buggies that don't fold. I am sad that bus companies / the "Industry" have failed to take proactive action on this issue over the past 20 years.
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Post by sid on Mar 1, 2017 16:16:58 GMT
@kingqueen , I can tell you now, we as drivers would love a LAW making buggy mum fold the buggies. That's great. So would I. If you would like to do so, please sign the Parliamentary petition asking for this. You can't get the Jeanie back into the bottle, low floor buses were advertised as 'buggy buses' when they were introduced.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 17:08:12 GMT
You can't get the Jeanie back into the bottle, low floor buses were advertised as 'buggy buses' when they were introduced. I agree that that was the fundamental error. Buses that only had a wheelchair space and no separate buggy space should never have been advertised as buggy friendly.
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Post by redbus on Mar 1, 2017 19:21:31 GMT
You can't get the Jeanie back into the bottle, low floor buses were advertised as 'buggy buses' when they were introduced. Indeed, and if there were such a law who would enforce it? The bus driver? And if buggy mum doesn't listen, what then? Stop the bus and call the police?
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Post by rambo on Mar 1, 2017 20:57:20 GMT
You can't get the Jeanie back into the bottle, low floor buses were advertised as 'buggy buses' when they were introduced. Indeed, and if there were such a law who would enforce it? The bus driver? And if buggy mum doesn't listen, what then? Stop the bus and call the police?
Yes, if that was the law.
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Post by sid on Mar 1, 2017 21:02:11 GMT
Indeed, and if there were such a law who would enforce it? The bus driver? And if buggy mum doesn't listen, what then? Stop the bus and call the police?
Yes, if that was the law. The police wouldn't even turn up let alone throw mother and toddler off the bus.
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Post by ServerKing on Mar 1, 2017 22:25:40 GMT
You can't get the Jeanie back into the bottle, low floor buses were advertised as 'buggy buses' when they were introduced. I doubt Jeanie and her 2 year old who could walk and not need his buggy would get off the bus either
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 1:35:20 GMT
Indeed, and if there were such a law who would enforce it? The bus driver? And if buggy mum doesn't listen, what then? Stop the bus and call the police? Perhaps we'll see a resurgence of the protests that originally resulted in the addition of wheelchair spaces to buses, that parents with buggies have benefited from for so long, like this: youtu.be/rSyxVE0WnbE
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