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Post by redbus on Mar 2, 2017 15:02:23 GMT
Indeed, and if there were such a law who would enforce it? The bus driver? And if buggy mum doesn't listen, what then? Stop the bus and call the police? Perhaps we'll see a resurgence of the protests that originally resulted in the addition of wheelchair spaces to buses, that parents with buggies have benefited from for so long, like this: youtu.be/rSyxVE0WnbEMaybe, for me it's all about outcomes, how do we buggy mom to give priority to wheelchair users? Clearly the Law says she must, but as others have observed the genie came out the bottle when buggies were encouraged to come on buses, and buggy mom thinks (incorrectly) she is entitled to the space. I think the best way to achieve the desired outcome is education, I am less convinced that getting the bus driver to try and enforce the Law is the best option.
I also like the idea seen on some buses outside London of separately designated spaces, one space for a wheelchair and one for a buggy. If multiple buggies board and use the wheelchair space and a wheelchair user comes along, such markings would make it easier to free up the space for the wheelchair.
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Post by rambo on Mar 2, 2017 20:59:06 GMT
Yes, if that was the law. The police wouldn't even turn up let alone throw mother and toddler off the bus. They would if it was LAW.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 2, 2017 21:58:09 GMT
The police wouldn't even turn up let alone throw mother and toddler off the bus. They would if it was LAW. No they wouldn't. Half the police forces in the country are under performing and some are chronically understaffed. Why on earth would they turn up to a bus to "police" a mum and a buggy? Completely pointless and a waste of extremely scarce resources; resources which are to become even more scarce as this ridiculous government carries on with its massacre of public services. At some point voters are going to say "enough is enough".
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Post by sid on Mar 2, 2017 22:08:18 GMT
The police wouldn't even turn up let alone throw mother and toddler off the bus. They would if it was LAW. Even if they were quiet at the time I doubt if they would attend, are they really going to physically remove parent and toddler from the bus? It never will become law because it is just unworkable.
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Post by nickfreckle on Mar 2, 2017 22:26:29 GMT
Oh, they'd turn up. Eventually. In a couple of hours maybe. If you're lucky. By which time, what's the point?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 3:13:45 GMT
how do we buggy mom to give priority to wheelchair users? Clearly the Law says she must, but as others have observed the genie came out the bottle when buggies were encouraged to come on buses, and buggy mom thinks (incorrectly) she is entitled to the space. Therein lies the problem, I agree. Achieving cultural change is difficult and I'm not a sociologist. I see analogies in the institution of smoking bans on buses. First everybody did it or tolerated it. Then it was theoretically illegal but many people did it anyway because they thought the smoking ban was an unacceptable silly rule. Then most people, even if they did it, realised that not only was it against the rules but generally society viewed it as unacceptable. Now it's rare to never (in my experience) that people smoke on the bus. Similar could be said about the use of seatbelts in cars, drinking and driving, etc. etc. Somehow, somebody needs to cause that process of social change such that non-disabled people occupying the wheelchair space know that except in extraordinary circumstances, e.g. in labour on the bus, it is not socially acceptable to occupy the wheelchair space. How to make that happen: I don't know. I have little confidence in the government, who the UN has stated is knowingly perpetrating grave and systematic abuse of disabled people's rights, will approach the Supreme Court justices' recommendations with any genuine intent or effort. I agree. The bus companies should be taking the initiative in dealing with this situation of their making. I agree that this would be logical, however sadly in my experience, living in North Yorkshire, this isn't generally the case. Recorder Isaacs was quite correct in his judgment that whilst separate provision may assist it doesn't deal with the fundamental issue that people with buggies may still inappropriately occupy the wheelchair space and refuse to move. I've known bus routes where several buggy users try to get on, the separate buggy space is full, and as a result non-disabled buggy users have refused to vacate the wheelchair space when needed for a disabled person.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 3:16:56 GMT
a waste of extremely scarce resources; resources which are to become even more scarce as this ridiculous government carries on with its massacre of public services. At some point voters are going to say "enough is enough". I so hope you're right and voters do so soon. This voter, I.e. me, has felt this way for some considerable time and I'm experiencing considerable anxiety about the direction the government, country and the world is going...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 3:19:03 GMT
The police wouldn't even turn up let alone throw mother and toddler off the bus. They would if it was LAW. It's law now that drivers must operate ramps, allow wheelchair users into unoccupied spaces and get out of their cab to assist wheelchair users if required - yet some drivers routinely ignore this and the police don't enforce it.
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Post by sid on Mar 3, 2017 6:29:47 GMT
a waste of extremely scarce resources; resources which are to become even more scarce as this ridiculous government carries on with its massacre of public services. At some point voters are going to say "enough is enough". I so hope you're right and voters do so soon. This voter, I.e. me, has felt this way for some considerable time and I'm experiencing considerable anxiety about the direction the government, country and the world is going... I'm not sure a change of government would make any great difference, changes in society have lead to an ever increasing work load for the police and it's not simply a case of throwing more resources at it.
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Post by sid on Mar 3, 2017 6:50:19 GMT
They would if it was LAW. It's law now that drivers must operate ramps, allow wheelchair users into unoccupied spaces and get out of their cab to assist wheelchair users if required - yet some drivers routinely ignore this and the police don't enforce it. These are matters for the Driver and Vehicle standards agency and traffic commissioner not the police.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 10:36:10 GMT
These are matters for the Driver and Vehicle standards agency and traffic commissioner not the police. That is not correct. The Department for Transport has said:I am aware that VOSA has been re-absorbed into the DVSA since the DFT's publication above. If I am prevented from accessing a bus due to discriminatory action taken by a driver who is refusing access to an unoccupied wheelchair space, refusing to operate the ramp or refusing to assist me onto the bus, phoning the DVSA or traffic commissioners isn't going to do anything there and then... Phoning the police isn't going to sort the problem there and then either, but in other circumstances where a crime is occurring there and then, and the perpetrator and the victim are still on scene, one would generally call the police, and the DFT have made clear that the police do have jurisdiction in regard to the conduct regulations.
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Post by rambo on Mar 4, 2017 17:56:44 GMT
These are matters for the Driver and Vehicle standards agency and traffic commissioner not the police. That is not correct. The Department for Transport has said:I am aware that VOSA has been re-absorbed into the DVSA since the DFT's publication above. If I am prevented from accessing a bus due to discriminatory action taken by a driver who is refusing access to an unoccupied wheelchair space, refusing to operate the ramp or refusing to assist me onto the bus, phoning the DVSA or traffic commissioners isn't going to do anything there and then... Phoning the police isn't going to sort the problem there and then either, but in other circumstances where a crime is occurring there and then, and the perpetrator and the victim are still on scene, one would generally call the police, and the DFT have made clear that the police do have jurisdiction in regard to the conduct regulations. Cannot understand why a driver would not let you board if the wheelchair area is empty.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 18:50:17 GMT
Cannot understand why a driver would not let you board if the wheelchair area is empty. Crazy isn't it. I'm aware of two cases recently. Wheelchair user Kirsty Sheppherd was refused access to a Wakefield bus because there was a baby in a buggy in the (separate) buggy space and the driver was under the impression that he must not allow a wheelchair user and a buggy user to travel on the bus at the same time, even if the buggy user is in the separate buggy space thus leaving the wheelchair space free. Kirsty insisted on speaking to the driver's manager, who told both Kirsty and the driver, repeatedly, that the driver should allow Kirsty on and into the wheelchair space; but the bus driver still refused, eventually terminating the service and blaming Kirsty to the other passengers. Quite an astonishing "misinterpretation" if you ask me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 0:12:13 GMT
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Post by rambo on Apr 4, 2017 16:16:34 GMT
The problem here is 'wheelchair space free'. What if the bus is packed and full of standing passengers? I cannot see a driver refusing a wheelchair if the space is free and accesiable.
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