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Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 30, 2016 17:57:44 GMT
Snoggle : if we ever get a bridge at Gallions Reach, then I can see the DLR going across it towards Thamesmead and maybe Abbey Wood. Otherwise, totally agree. Possibly. However I suspect it will end up competing with a possible GOBLIN tunnel under the Thames to Thamesmead. I doubt TfL would be able to justify building two cross river rail links in the area although I accept they'd serve different catchment areas north of the Thames. I think we were lucky to get 2 DLR crossings plus the JLE to be honest and even serving North Greenwich was a bit of an accident - albeit now an extremely busy accident! I also suspect TfL will have enormous difficult getting the Silvertown Tunnel built because it hasn't got the money to fund it and I expect it will end in some form of legal challenge over the environmental impact. Ditto for the Gallions Reach bridge if it carries road traffic. I simply don't see where the money will come from to build multiple river crossings no matter how attractive it might be. Not to mention the fact building bridges in the East is nowhere near as easy as in the west due to the river widening as it prepares to flow into the sea. Look at the size of the river around Dartford and look at the size of the bridge required to cross it. Personally I think that the Silvertown tunnel is the most likely form of any river crossing that East London will ever get, I don't see the DLR being extended further south through a new crossing, however I feel that the Woolwich Arsenal branch could be extended further south to serve some areas.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Oct 4, 2016 14:12:20 GMT
So Kahn has approved the Silvertown Tunnel and DLR extension to Thamesmead via Gallions reach.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 4, 2016 17:56:40 GMT
So Kahn has approved the Silvertown Tunnel and DLR extension to Thamesmead via Gallions reach. About time some sort of line reaches Thamesmead. The Jubilee Line was mooted to be extended to Thamesmead at one point when the 1999 extension was built branching of at North Greenwich.
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Post by routew15 on Oct 4, 2016 21:11:14 GMT
So Kahn has approved the Silvertown Tunnel and DLR extension to Thamesmead via Gallions reach. About time some sort of line reaches Thamesmead. The Jubilee Line was mooted to be extended to Thamesmead at one point when the 1999 extension was built branching of at North Greenwich. Agreed! Just hope this extension can make good progress before the next election. I look forward to seeing the timetable for this extension, hoping it is similar to previous DLR extensions which were produced swiftly. Whilst Thamesmead seems like the right place for the DLR my heart is still with the GOBLIN extension across the river. Glad to see this has not been completely ruled out.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 4, 2016 22:34:25 GMT
So Kahn has approved the Silvertown Tunnel and DLR extension to Thamesmead via Gallions reach. About time some sort of line reaches Thamesmead. The Jubilee Line was mooted to be extended to Thamesmead at one point when the 1999 extension was built branching of at North Greenwich. There are a few issues here. 1. If DLR just reaches Thamesmead then it's all a bit pointless really. Yes it will help some people but it really needs to reach Abbey Wood ideally with at least 1 intermediate stop within Thamesmead itself. That would give it a genuine purpose locally as an extra layer of transport capacity plus the much needed link into Crossrail, South Eastern and possibly Thameslink. 2. I don't think a short cross river DLR extension adds very much and it creates complications north of the river as to what the service structure is. Beckton is highly likely to lose out in terms of frequency and that will go down like a lead balloon locally. 3. The scheme is entirely reliant on leveraging private sector funding. There is no TfL money for this. I can't see how it will be funded and delivered in anything under 15 years. We are talking about several hundred million here for an enormous bridge across the Thames which hasn't been designed. There is probably no land owned by TfL on the likely alignment (not 100% sure about the "not complete bit of A406 on the north side) plus there will be new trains to buy plus extension system changes to integrate the service. There are also no legal powers to build it so it will be the next Mayoral term before any construction could start. That means there is a load of money to be spent to progress this scheme which will take many years and that's without any funding in place. The GOBLIN extension to Barking Reach is at least funded, it's planned and the legislative process is under way now. However it will still be 5-6 years from start to finish which is remarkably fast but only because planning obligations required a rail link *and* City Hall owned the land for the extra housing. Therefore it could construct a viable funding package although the link is probably the absolute bargain basement option. Much as I would like to see the DLR expand it needs to be done on the basis of a proper transport assessment not as a "green sticking plaster" to allow a road tunnel to be built. 4. I don't see how Barking Reach to Abbey Wood on the GOBLIN survives any sort of assessment if DLR is being extended across the river. I think the GOBLIN tunnel would be strategically far more important and valuable as it is further east than other rail crossings and is part of an established orbital line. I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that TfL themselves are deeply sceptical about extending the GOBLIN hence the lack of any obvious support for the tunnel despite loads of people supporting the idea in past consultations on the Barking Reach extension.
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Post by Alex on Oct 4, 2016 23:50:59 GMT
1. If DLR just reaches Thamesmead then it's all a bit pointless really. Yes it will help some people but it really needs to reach Abbey Wood ideally with at least 1 intermediate stop within Thamesmead itself. That would give it a genuine purpose locally as an extra layer of transport capacity plus the much needed link into Crossrail, South Eastern and possibly Thameslink. Yes, I was thinking this. Having 'Thamesmead' as a blanket name seemed a bit odd and not the best use of a river crossing (if it was just one station there)! I could envisage the crossing from Gallions Reach ending up near the Thamesmead shopping centre, and a station there - but would this be enough? From what I recall there's enough space to put a single line running next to Carlyle Road, have a stop at Boiler House, then a stop the other side of the roundabout at the Yarnton Way roundabout (crossing the roundabout would be a task itself though).....from the Yarnton Way/Lidls site it's about 1/3 of a mile to (somehow, elevated?) get to Abbey Wood, not much further really. Anyhow - the idea would speed up travel from Thamesmead by quite some margin. According to calculations (which I have explained below - switch off in a second if you don't want to go into it ) it would take about 14 minutes from/to Canning Town & the Jubilee line. Excellent - when you consider presently it's a 472 bus ride to Woolwich, then 12 mins on the DLR from there to Canning Town, quite an improvement. Doing some (very) rough measuring on Google Maps, and looking at DLR distance data, I'd estimate the run from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead Town Centre would be roughly 2.2 miles. The Woolwich Arsenal - King George V run is quite fast, and is roughly 1.5 miles in 3 minutes. This gives us an average of 30 mph (though I know the tunnel is more, it allows for slowing down and speeding up - but I know you'll get this anyway everyone ) I'd say the longer run without a station stop from Gallions to Thamesmead could be done on a 33 mph average so a four min journey time. Add to the existing 10 minute run from Gallions - Canning Town Also, Thamesmead being a hop across the river from the depot at Gallions Reach could see some very late last trips back there too - again, something very handy.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 5, 2016 12:39:43 GMT
Anyhow - the idea would speed up travel from Thamesmead by quite some margin. According to calculations (which I have explained below - switch off in a second if you don't want to go into it ) it would take about 14 minutes from/to Canning Town & the Jubilee line. Excellent - when you consider presently it's a 472 bus ride to Woolwich, then 12 mins on the DLR from there to Canning Town, quite an improvement. Well we have no idea how the service would work or where it would go. It could run to Stratford Int or it could run towards Zone 1. I suspect it would run to Stratford as TfL have already flagged plans to run more trains on the Beckton line (because of the Chinese investment in the Royal Docks) and the line to Stratford International is the only one which has spare capacity. My main worry is actually capacity at Canning Town. The high level platforms are not far off capacity and interchange from the low level platforms is cumbersome at best and not really high capacity. We then get into the problem of whether the Jubilee Line will have capacity. There are plans to bolster capacity with more trains and a higher tph but that capacity is likely to be gobbled up pretty quickly *if* the project receives funding. There is no funding yet nor any clarity about the procurement of the extra trains (process is ongoing). The JLE platforms at Canning Town are also very crowded in the peaks already and I'm not sure that there is much scope to increase capacity.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Oct 5, 2016 14:59:27 GMT
Only way I can see it going into zone one is if it becomes a tower gateway service and Beckton becomes Stratford international/Canning town or if they do the above swap but run it to Bank with woolwich arsenal becoming a tower gateway service.
West leg is pretty much at capacity in the peaks so can't see how they'd add another running service to it even if they had the trains to do it.
Also there isn't enough spare capacity in the fleet to run anymore trains and word is no new trains until well into the next franchise.
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Post by snowman on Oct 5, 2016 16:13:47 GMT
Anyhow - the idea would speed up travel from Thamesmead by quite some margin. According to calculations (which I have explained below - switch off in a second if you don't want to go into it ) it would take about 14 minutes from/to Canning Town & the Jubilee line. Excellent - when you consider presently it's a 472 bus ride to Woolwich, then 12 mins on the DLR from there to Canning Town, quite an improvement. Well we have no idea how the service would work or where it would go. It could run to Stratford Int or it could run towards Zone 1. I suspect it would run to Stratford as TfL have already flagged plans to run more trains on the Beckton line (because of the Chinese investment in the Royal Docks) and the line to Stratford International is the only one which has spare capacity. My main worry is actually capacity at Canning Town. The high level platforms are not far off capacity and interchange from the low level platforms is cumbersome at best and not really high capacity. We then get into the problem of whether the Jubilee Line will have capacity. There are plans to bolster capacity with more trains and a higher tph but that capacity is likely to be gobbled up pretty quickly *if* the project receives funding. There is no funding yet nor any clarity about the procurement of the extra trains (process is ongoing). The JLE platforms at Canning Town are also very crowded in the peaks already and I'm not sure that there is much scope to increase capacity. Although the Stratford branch could take more trains, probably not most people's first choice of destination. I beleive the City branch is close to capacity. The junction with Tower Gateway line is a limit, and clearing the bank platforms is another limit. From memory a flat section of tunnel was built near Tower in case station was ever added there (very unlikely), and the reversing spur beyond bank could be used as start of extension (which would ease passengers needing to change at bank). Would basically need an unfunded extension to sort the problem. The most likely (if it ever happens) is an extension to Aldwych in new tuñnels then take over jubilee tunnels which actually extend under the Strand (which would need enlarging) to the disused Charing Cross. Probably get one intermediate station. Really can't see it happening as planners would squeeze extra trains on Jubilee first. My own feeling is some of the spare capacity on Elizabeth line will be miles ahead in queue of possible upgrades. Could see a station near City airport added if developers fund it.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Oct 5, 2016 18:09:15 GMT
Anyhow - the idea would speed up travel from Thamesmead by quite some margin. According to calculations (which I have explained below - switch off in a second if you don't want to go into it ) it would take about 14 minutes from/to Canning Town & the Jubilee line. Excellent - when you consider presently it's a 472 bus ride to Woolwich, then 12 mins on the DLR from there to Canning Town, quite an improvement. Well we have no idea how the service would work or where it would go. It could run to Stratford Int or it could run towards Zone 1. I suspect it would run to Stratford as TfL have already flagged plans to run more trains on the Beckton line (because of the Chinese investment in the Royal Docks) and the line to Stratford International is the only one which has spare capacity. My main worry is actually capacity at Canning Town. The high level platforms are not far off capacity and interchange from the low level platforms is cumbersome at best and not really high capacity. We then get into the problem of whether the Jubilee Line will have capacity. There are plans to bolster capacity with more trains and a higher tph but that capacity is likely to be gobbled up pretty quickly *if* the project receives funding. There is no funding yet nor any clarity about the procurement of the extra trains (process is ongoing). The JLE platforms at Canning Town are also very crowded in the peaks already and I'm not sure that there is much scope to increase capacity. as far as line capacity goes, there's plenty east of Poplar but the West Route remains a problem- an additional few trains could be squeezed onto west of Poplar, although they would have to run into Tower Gateway rather tHan Bank. The Dagenham Dock extension was going to run up to Stratford International rather than in to Zone 1, so it's likely the Thamesmead service would run the same way, replacing the current Beckton to Canning Town off-peak service.There are plans to improve capacity east of Canning Town as part of the Royal Docks development The new trains for the DLR are still in the pipeline, however this may have been put back slightly.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 5, 2016 21:19:08 GMT
The enthusiast in me : the person who likes to pretend to be a train driver in the front seat of a DLR unit (yep lol) would want an extension of the DLR to Thamesmead. The traveller in me : the person who wants new links that are useful, sees a GOBLIN extension to Abbey Wood via Thamesmead as being very useful indeed and a great addition to the London rail network. Much more useful than a DLR Thamesmead extension, which doesn't really do much more than the infinitely more useful Elizabeth line, and also would reduce services to Beckton on the DLR.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 5, 2016 23:06:01 GMT
Well we have no idea how the service would work or where it would go. It could run to Stratford Int or it could run towards Zone 1. I suspect it would run to Stratford as TfL have already flagged plans to run more trains on the Beckton line (because of the Chinese investment in the Royal Docks) and the line to Stratford International is the only one which has spare capacity. My main worry is actually capacity at Canning Town. The high level platforms are not far off capacity and interchange from the low level platforms is cumbersome at best and not really high capacity. We then get into the problem of whether the Jubilee Line will have capacity. There are plans to bolster capacity with more trains and a higher tph but that capacity is likely to be gobbled up pretty quickly *if* the project receives funding. There is no funding yet nor any clarity about the procurement of the extra trains (process is ongoing). The JLE platforms at Canning Town are also very crowded in the peaks already and I'm not sure that there is much scope to increase capacity. as far as line capacity goes, there's plenty east of Poplar but the West Route remains a problem- an additional few trains could be squeezed onto west of Poplar, although they would have to run into Tower Gateway rather tHan Bank. The Dagenham Dock extension was going to run up to Stratford International rather than in to Zone 1, so it's likely the Thamesmead service would run the same way, replacing the current Beckton to Canning Town off-peak service.There are plans to improve capacity east of Canning Town as part of the Royal Docks development The new trains for the DLR are still in the pipeline, however this may have been put back slightly. Thinking about things a little more I had forgotten that DLR will link to Crossrail at Custom House so that will take pressure off the Jubilee Line given it serves Canary Wharf plus the City and through to Bond St. Maybe the impact at Canning Town may not be so bad but, of course, it just transfers pressure to Custom House. However if you're in Thamesmead would you really get on the DLR to then change or would you just take a bus to Abbey Wood and get on an empty Class 345 for a faster journey to most of the key destinations you might want? I know new stock is under consideration for DLR so that aspect of any extension is not a huge concern. I'd expect DLR to have set in motion some fleet replacement or expansion well before there is any chance of a DLR extension to Thamesmead (if it actually happens). I would much prefer to see the GOBLIN extended under the Thames - makes much more strategic sense to reach Abbey Wood ideally with a stop at Thamesmead as well.
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Post by snowman on Oct 6, 2016 5:41:28 GMT
I would much prefer to see the GOBLIN extended under the Thames - makes much more strategic sense to reach Abbey Wood ideally with a stop at Thamesmead as well. If Goblin gets extended under the Thames, let's hope it goes beyond Thamesmead, so it connects to Abbey Wood. It should really be thought of as the start of an outer ring, although money will only come in stages years apart should be looking to extend it to link into low use lines and connect up a through route, the section south of Abbey Wood is all going to have to be new but later on more potential routes exist.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Oct 6, 2016 17:25:54 GMT
as far as line capacity goes, there's plenty east of Poplar but the West Route remains a problem- an additional few trains could be squeezed onto west of Poplar, although they would have to run into Tower Gateway rather tHan Bank. The Dagenham Dock extension was going to run up to Stratford International rather than in to Zone 1, so it's likely the Thamesmead service would run the same way, replacing the current Beckton to Canning Town off-peak service.There are plans to improve capacity east of Canning Town as part of the Royal Docks development The new trains for the DLR are still in the pipeline, however this may have been put back slightly. Thinking about things a little more I had forgotten that DLR will link to Crossrail at Custom House so that will take pressure off the Jubilee Line given it serves Canary Wharf plus the City and through to Bond St. Maybe the impact at Canning Town may not be so bad but, of course, it just transfers pressure to Custom House. However if you're in Thamesmead would you really get on the DLR to then change or would you just take a bus to Abbey Wood and get on an empty Class 345 for a faster journey to most of the key destinations you might want? I know new stock is under consideration for DLR so that aspect of any extension is not a huge concern. I'd expect DLR to have set in motion some fleet replacement or expansion well before there is any chance of a DLR extension to Thamesmead (if it actually happens). I would much prefer to see the GOBLIN extended under the Thames - makes much more strategic sense to reach Abbey Wood ideally with a stop at Thamesmead as well. I think you're right regarding Crossrail south of the river, there is an expectation that patronage will reduce slightly, particularly through Woolwich Arsenal, when Crossrail opens, however it will soon increase again as the area out east develops. The B92 fleet will need replacement in the coming years, the original vehicles (delivered as B90s) are now 26 years old, and will be 30+ by the time the new train for DLR is in service. Any new order would take into account any extension south/east
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Post by routew15 on Mar 10, 2018 10:52:49 GMT
In the #AskDLR twitter session yesterday an interesting question was asked double tracking of the Stratford Branch (Bow - Stratford)
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