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Post by routew15 on Oct 24, 2016 16:35:30 GMT
Consultation on plans to remove the segregated busway in North Greenwich and replace it with what is more or less a dual carriageway. One of the reason for the changes is down to safety concerns with the existing layout . - Source: Transport for London consultation pageIt is quite detailed for such "straightforward" change. I would think this scheme would be popular with most residents. Consultation pageConsultation ends Sunday 4th December
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Post by snoggle on Oct 24, 2016 17:28:06 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left.
A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport.
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Post by Connor on Oct 24, 2016 17:46:36 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left. A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport. Just another set of traffic lights (I'm guessing) for NB buses, and 2 new pointless bus stops to further delay buses. Is there enough patronage in the area to justify the new crossings and bus stops? IIt seems that area where this new bus station entry will be is an area that was recently developed. Will this be ripped out and changed or will buses use 'Green Lane'? Otherwise, the whole thing seems pointless to me.
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Post by routew15 on Oct 24, 2016 17:51:58 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left. A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport. Your not wrong. The final paragraph on future bus services predicts southbound journey times are all to take longer than 2016 services. Why not just scrap the car lanes? Making things better for the cars around Greenwich will only encourage more drivers to make long distant journeys via the Blackwall/Silvertown Tunnel not via the Jub or the Dangleway or even the bus.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 24, 2016 18:47:54 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left. A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport. Your not wrong. The final paragraph on future bus services predicts southbound journey times are all to take longer than 2016 services. Why not just scrap the car lanes? Making things better for the cars around Greenwich will only encourage more drivers to make long distant journeys via the Blackwall/Silvertown Tunnel not via the Jub or the Dangleway or even the bus. This is why London is so backwards - congestion is rising which is severely hampering bus journeys and so Greenwich decide to prioritise cars over buses - way to go with such a smart decision NOT! It's just like bus lanes - they implement a useful lane for buses but then allow non bus vehicles to park in it effectively reducing it's usefulness.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 24, 2016 19:22:36 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left. A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport. Your not wrong. The final paragraph on future bus services predicts southbound journey times are all to take longer than 2016 services. Why not just scrap the car lanes? Making things better for the cars around Greenwich will only encourage more drivers to make long distant journeys via the Blackwall/Silvertown Tunnel not via the Jub or the Dangleway or even the bus. Having read the 853 blog on this it seems that there will be vast numbers of lorries and construction vehicles in the vicinity for a fairly long period. We also have the arrival if IKEA where the old Sainsburys was. When you combine both of these I don't find it credible that buses will remain reliable in this part of London. The consultation only references peak journey times - I suspect weekend (off peak) times will be ghastly once IKEA opens. You won't be able to move between the A2 junction and IKEA. Having been in the area recently at weekends Bugsby's Way already jams on Saturdays and that will take extra loading for access to IKEA from Woolwich / Plumstead / Thamesmead / Charlton. And that's before you get people overloading the buses to / from IKEA from North Greenwich. The "192 effect" transferred to S London but the only saving grace is there are several routes and they're double deckers.
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Post by routew15 on Oct 24, 2016 20:31:34 GMT
Your not wrong. The final paragraph on future bus services predicts southbound journey times are all to take longer than 2016 services. Why not just scrap the car lanes? Making things better for the cars around Greenwich will only encourage more drivers to make long distant journeys via the Blackwall/Silvertown Tunnel not via the Jub or the Dangleway or even the bus. Having read the 853 blog on this it seems that there will be vast numbers of lorries and construction vehicles in the vicinity for a fairly long period. We also have the arrival if IKEA where the old Sainsburys was. When you combine both of these I don't find it credible that buses will remain reliable in this part of London. The consultation only references peak journey times - I suspect weekend (off peak) times will be ghastly once IKEA opens. You won't be able to move between the A2 junction and IKEA. Having been in the area recently at weekends Bugsby's Way already jams on Saturdays and that will take extra loading for access to IKEA from Woolwich / Plumstead / Thamesmead / Charlton. And that's before you get people overloading the buses to / from IKEA from North Greenwich. The "192 effect" transferred to S London but the only saving grace is there are several routes and they're double deckers. Construction traffic should realistically use the surrounding roads (Millennium Way / John Harrison Way / Edmund Halley Way) using those roads would be of greater benefit than West Parkside something the local authority should encourage but they seem to be mesmerised by the shiny buildings of the peninsula. IKEA seem to believe it can just slide it self into inner London without having to build many(/any) new transporting elements that most new stores invest heavily in. beliefs that the existing car park will suffice demand, without seriously accounting for the fact the car park caters for Odeon, Nandos and B&Q. If you look at the car park now on a Saturday without the anchor or Sainsbury's it gives you rough idea of how many spaces will be left for IKEA car visitors. The public transport challenges; as mentioned. whilst it could potentially be one of the best connected IKEA's in the South East (maybe even the country) it just seems like a big headache right now.
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Post by danorak on Oct 24, 2016 21:21:58 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left. A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport. I'm not quite as down on this as others. Firstly, I can't see as it'll make much difference car capacity wise. The existing lanes are just being reallocated, and there are no car journeys possible that weren't before. Secondly, buses will no longer have to make an utterly pointless stop at the traffic lights at the Pilot and should get through the John Harrison Way junction more quickly: at the moment, you often have to wait for the 'car side' to go first. Thirdly, there will be a new bus stop near the Pilot. And fourthly, buses will benefit from the removal of the ridiculous staggered junction at Edmund Halley Way/West Parkside which is a major cause of delay. Most importantly, this should be less confusing for everybody, especially pedestrians, and the consultation should make more of the likely safety benefits. The layout should have been changed a long time ago and it still mystifies me how we ended up with such a mess when we had a virtually blank sheet of paper to start with. Ikea may well bring its own issues, but that is elsewhere and I don't think anything in this will affect it.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 24, 2016 21:50:43 GMT
The real reason for this is all about adding road capacity for cars and also to release land for already approved redevelopment. None of this is about safety concerns (these are not explained as far I can see) nor public transport improvement. The current busway isn't ideal because of a lack of priority at junctions but there is nothing in these proposals to afford buses more priority. Worse the proposal for a non signalised junction at Southern Way is a recipe for accidents. Motorists simply will not stop for buses at this location and certainly won't cope with buses merging in front of them from the left. A typical London Borough of Greenwich scheme that does nothing for public transport. I'm not quite as down on this as others. Firstly, I can't see as it'll make much difference car capacity wise. The existing lanes are just being reallocated, and there are no car journeys possible that weren't before. Secondly, buses will no longer have to make an utterly pointless stop at the traffic lights at the Pilot and should get through the John Harrison Way junction more quickly: at the moment, you often have to wait for the 'car side' to go first. Thirdly, there will be a new bus stop near the Pilot. And fourthly, buses will benefit from the removal of the ridiculous staggered junction at Edmund Halley Way/West Parkside which is a major cause of delay. Most importantly, this should be less confusing for everybody, especially pedestrians, and the consultation should make more of the likely safety benefits. The layout should have been changed a long time ago and it still mystifies me how we ended up with such a mess when we had a virtually blank sheet of paper to start with. Ikea may well bring its own issues, but that is elsewhere and I don't think anything in this will affect it. I am amazed that anyone finds it confusing which is the apparent allegation. All it is is two single carriageway roads close to one another with grass and trees between them. Have people stopped using their eyes and ears when in the vicinity of roads? What would they do if the busway was a tram line? Ignore that too and not look? We ended up with the situation because the busway was going to be guided using under the road cables but the supplier couldn't make it work. Therefore a last minute decision was taken to tarmac the busway and just run it as a bus only road so that the "M" feeder buses to the Dome could operate. It has remained like that ever since. Quite how people living there haven't got used to it I don't know. I'm afraid I am not as convinced as you are that Edmund Halley Way junction will be any more efficient. I agree it's hopeless now but that's entirely because they signalised it. The future layout is signalled with, I assume, entirely separate phases for the bus lanes compared to the normal traffic lanes. Therefore buses may well still wait for ages and ages while road traffic moves through on E-W and S-E and S-W phasings. I reckon it will take 4 phases and that's without pedestrian crossing times too. I would also like to see the actual bus access into the bus station from this point - that's not at all clear. It also raises the question about what the 108 / 188 do to exit the bus station when heading to Bow / Greenwich. If they have to use the new bus only road and go through the new Edmund Halley junction then that's even more buses per hour going through this pinchpoint. I also think some of the other junctions are not very efficiently designed / are potentially dangerous. The use of raised pedestrian crossings also means buses crawling to a halt and then bashing over these giving delightfully unpleasant jolts to the passengers as they do. I have this twice over near my local stops so I know what I'm talking about. The lack of traffic light priority being afforded to buses means that we are very likely to see a continuation of the nonsense that exists on the busway now. Buses being stopped for no traffic whatsoever rather than being able to override the lights and actually keep moving. Given the flows involved that's a demonstrable, measureable benefit for bus passengers. We also need to acknowledge the massive scale of development planned on the peninsula. It is breathtaking in its scale. It will have serious implications for the bus network that cannot cope today. We have Greenwich council that is sitting on millions of pounds due to TfL for bus improvements and nowt has been spent. Even more money will come from developments in build now / due to start soon. A fair number of the future residents will obviously walk to the tube station to reach their place of work but not all will and their children will need transport to local schools. I don't see how bus lanes with gaps for side turnings and "sneak in front" space at junctions are better than the busway that could work very well if only the traffic lights were altered.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 24, 2016 22:49:25 GMT
Stops at the Pilot - yes please, it's one of the best pubs in the area Personally, I'm not so worried about this consultation, although I'm not struck on it, but when IKEA opens, on the current road network, things will grind to a halt in my opinion, and I'm not convinced Greenwich council have the wherewithal to do anything sensible about it.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 24, 2016 22:55:47 GMT
Stops at the Pilot - yes please, it's one of the best pubs in the area Personally, I'm not so worried about this consultation, although I'm not struck on it, but when IKEA opens, on the current road network, things will grind to a halt in my opinion, and I'm not convinced Greenwich council have the wherewithal to do anything sensible about it. Bloomin' expensive for a Fullers Pub. I nearly had to be resuscitated when I saw the prices as another forum member will vouch. Just call me Ebeneezer.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Oct 31, 2016 13:35:28 GMT
I'm also amazed that people have managed to drive private cars up a clearly-marked bus lane - and am left scratching my head at how pedestrians have managed to miss it, too. But people have died, so something needs to be done.
And let's be honest - the busway's been a mess since day one, particularly with those sodding traffic lights at the Pilot and the awful access to the bus station. It should have been on the west side of the road to reduce conflict with private traffic, and it should have properly fed into North Greenwich bus station from day one (a legacy of the guided bus stops at the Dome which were never used, except for the Olympics specials 12 years later).
The main problem is it was designed in heady times when the Greenwich Peninsula was seen as a largely car-free development (with no clear plan for what to do with the Dome post-2000), so when that commitment faded, it was always going to be a problem in a borough run by a particularly backward council run by people who still see bus travel in the same terms as Margaret Thatcher did.
And when people were hit and killed by buses, of course they were going to lash out at public transport users rather than the Kent commuters who clog up the route through GMV each morning in their cars.
Driving a dual carriageway through the Millennium Village is the last nail in the coffin of its reputation as an eco-friendly development where the walking/cycling routes to North Greenwich station are already so poor, scores of residents queue up each morning for a one-stop ride to the station, slowing down the service for everyone else.
There are some sensible things in this proposal - such as the promise of easier access to the bus station (not sure how they'll do that without buying land from the O2's owners, though) and the bus stops at the Pilot. But building a dual carriageway through GMV will just make life more miserable for residents who have bought into a "village life" fantasy and will never get it.
Unless through access for private cars is blocked (at Southern Way and maybe at the O2 car parks), and action's taken to encourage more residents to walk to the station in the morning instead, this scheme will just be counterproductive.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Mar 16, 2017 15:02:55 GMT
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Post by busman on Mar 29, 2017 5:15:07 GMT
Not sure why there is so much apathy towards this change. Anything to reduce the chances of having a pedestrian step out in front of a vehicle cannot be a bad thing. There was another incident in the area yesterday. It's easy to see how the road layout might be confusing to car drivers and pedestrians who are unfamiliar with the area. If you know your through roads in the area, you will realise that this change will not encourage additional car traffic in relation to Blackwall tunnel and has nothing to do with the proposed IKEA (which does have serious issues around access and impact on local roads). The change simply makes the road layout less confusing and safer for pedestrians and road users (yes that includes buses too) ahead of a huge increase in housing in the area. There will be construction vehicles using roads during that time and more cars and buses in the area once the thousands of new residents have moved in. Local residents campaigned for this change and TfL along with the council finally did something about it. If anything, the changes don't go far enough. Conditions for pedestrians and cyclists in the surrounding area are terrible.
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