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Post by snoggle on Nov 2, 2016 12:10:44 GMT
Spotted courtesy of Diamond Geezer's blog. Newham Council are planning to remove the gyratory road layout at Stratford and turn all roads two way! www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Stratford-town-centre-improvements.aspxExplanatory LeafletNot read it in huge detail but looks as if it will have quite an impact on the bus network. Coaches are being shifted to Montfitchet Road - quite a trek if you arrive on a local bus and need to make a connection. There are also some local consultation sessions - including one today! Bus route changes will be consulted on separately. The bus station layout is also being changed quite substantially with stops round the perimeter and no separate access road / setting down point. I suspect a route like the 25 will be sent round via Morrisons and the bus station on w/b trips. Quite what happens with everything else is open to speculation but I suspect it will be the old classic of "shortest route" wins so the 158 will hook a right from Angel Lane and then straight into the bus stn rather than going round via the Broadway. It will also be interesting to see how TfL handle routes like the 241 and 308 - via the bus stn or via the Broadway direct with people having to walk to the bus / tube station.
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Post by mondraker275 on Nov 2, 2016 16:26:39 GMT
Spotted courtesy of Diamond Geezer's blog. Newham Council are planning to remove the gyratory road layout at Stratford and turn all roads two way! www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Stratford-town-centre-improvements.aspxExplanatory LeafletNot read it in huge detail but looks as if it will have quite an impact on the bus network. Coaches are being shifted to Montfitchet Road - quite a trek if you arrive on a local bus and need to make a connection. There are also some local consultation sessions - including one today! Bus route changes will be consulted on separately. The bus station layout is also being changed quite substantially with stops round the perimeter and no separate access road / setting down point. I suspect a route like the 25 will be sent round via Morrisons and the bus station on w/b trips. Quite what happens with everything else is open to speculation but I suspect it will be the old classic of "shortest route" wins so the 158 will hook a right from Angel Lane and then straight into the bus stn rather than going round via the Broadway. It will also be interesting to see how TfL handle routes like the 241 and 308 - via the bus stn or via the Broadway direct with people having to walk to the bus / tube station. Why do all councils/TfL call any work 'improvement' works. Who knows if they will be an improvement. Its usually an improvement for some but much worse for others. Just call it 'works'. I had heard about these works and I am sure TfL have already been involved and I suspect they have some idea already about what they are looking to do. Looking at some of the new bus stop placements (and one removed), especially near the Angel Road Junction, the stops that is currently there for the 158, 241, 308 is not there. And the new on the opposite (anti -clockwise) is too far from the Angel ROad Junction. Baring that in mind it is almost certain that the 158, 241 and 308 will serve the station, short side and avoid Stratford Library. I also expect that the 69 will serve the short side and avoid the library. Also that would explain that new bus stop that I referred to being to far away from the Angel ROad junction. The 257 would then be the only bus serving the Library. I guess that all buses will use the station in both directions.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 2, 2016 18:56:34 GMT
Why do all councils/TfL call any work 'improvement' works. Who knows if they will be an improvement. Its usually an improvement for some but much worse for others. Just call it 'works'. I had heard about these works and I am sure TfL have already been involved and I suspect they have some idea already about what they are looking to do. Looking at some of the new bus stop placements (and one removed), especially near the Angel Road Junction, the stops that is currently there for the 158, 241, 308 is not there. And the new on the opposite (anti -clockwise) is too far from the Angel ROad Junction. Baring that in mind it is almost certain that the 158, 241 and 308 will serve the station, short side and avoid Stratford Library. I also expect that the 69 will serve the short side and avoid the library. Also that would explain that new bus stop that I referred to being to far away from the Angel ROad junction. The 257 would then be the only bus serving the Library. I guess that all buses will use the station in both directions. It's the old "spin machine" at work - no one tells the truth any more. Everything is always an improvement (even when it's clearly a disastrous waste of money). Every penny spent on the railways is "investment" when almost all of it is opex (maintenance, training, renewals). Only where you achieve "betterment" (something better and more functional than before) is it anywhere near to being investment spend. I ran an investment budget for projects many years ago. I had no money for maintenance and asset renewal - that was controlled by others. I suspect you are right in that TfL will want all routes to reach the station. That's laudable enough but it raises some interesting issues about whether through routes will enter the bus station to serve common stops with other services or if people will be forced to choose between split stops. I don't think there is a single stretch of route radiating from Stratford Station that has only one route on it. The closest is the 158 where the overlap with the 241 and 308 is pretty short up Angel Lane. If through routes do enter the bus station then journey times will inevitably go up given the multiple sets of lights and inevitable queues of buses waiting to get into and out of the bus station. The current gyratory layout has its issues *but* in many ways the bus station functions very well because there is negligible waiting time to enter it and a split exit feed also helps.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 11:13:13 GMT
Just seems the norm now that gyratories are going two-way. They want it at Old Street, Highbury and worse still closing of an arm for pedestrianisation and 'public realm' (TfL buzzword) seems to be the 'in thing' now too.
Frankly I'm surprised the fairly recent Hammersmith gyratory cycle lane consultation didn't include a move to two-way. Hanger Lane next anyone.... anyone? 🙄
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Post by T.R. on Nov 3, 2016 12:04:19 GMT
Considering the amount of buses going via the Bus Station that would undoubtedly extend journey times for all :/ Frankly I'm surprised the fairly recent Hammersmith gyratory cycle lane consultation didn't include a move to two-way. Hanger Lane next anyone.... anyone? 🙄 I'll take a guess and say Hyde Park Corner (north part) or Victoria
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Post by rmz19 on Nov 3, 2016 12:39:41 GMT
I'll take a guess and say Hyde Park Corner (north part) or Victoria I dread to think how badly affected a lot of buses in Central London would be if this is the case, like how it was in E&C except amplified multiple times Hyde Park Corner is an area not to be messed with in this regard.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 3, 2016 13:13:09 GMT
Just seems the norm now that gyratories are going two-way. They want it at Old Street, Highbury and worse still closing of an arm for pedestrianisation and 'public realm' (TfL buzzword) seems to be the 'in thing' now too. Frankly I'm surprised the fairly recent Hammersmith gyratory cycle lane consultation didn't include a move to two-way. Hanger Lane next anyone.... anyone? 🙄 It's idiotic to just remove gyratories for the sake of it which is what happening in all these so called improvement schemes. Turning one way roads into two way roads leads to more signal phases on traffic lights which increases journey times and this further increases when cycle lanes are implemented. Lambeth done it correctly (for once) by two waying one arm of the St. Matthews one way system in Brixton and leaving the rest as one way (the original plan was a carbon copy of what Stockwell's one way system has sadly become (one arm pedestrianised and the other two arms turned into two way roads).
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Post by enviroPB on Nov 3, 2016 14:44:45 GMT
The most logival thing that's going to happen with the 308 is it gets a symmetrical service Clapton bound. Upon reflection & remembering now the routes serves Stratford City, the 308 is going to miss the main bus station all together! After the initial "oh dear, here it comes" reaction in my head coupled with @perry84uk's statement that it's just the norm to do this nowadays; I firmly have the view that '2 way' is only but name. No left turn from The Broadway to The Grove so the 69 or even more likely 241 can't go via Morrisons northbound [to Stratford City]. The most interesting thing is that it shows where the bus station is 2 way; that there's no right turn into the station if heading southbound on Great Eastern Road to Stratford High Street. That implies to me that 1 traffic-flow direction at a time will be the phasing traffic lights adopt & that many buses aren't going to be terminating at this new stop opposite the station and navigating that one lane of traffic to turn right. Obviously route 158 would be the exception; for that particular stop mentioned, I can see the 25, 69 & 158 serve this stop. To talk any further I'd have to come back to the 2 way thing only being in name. Most cases I've seen had town centres etc. 2 way, they are still mentally inclined to think of it as a gyratory. With that in mind, I see almost all terminating routes arrive from Stratford Broadway to terminate. TfL will want the 25 to hit the main bus station westbound and so will likely see a routing via The Grove and Great Eastern Road in both directions; so as to reduce ridership and increase tube/train usage. The 86 however will remain the same in routing; so as all routes currently serving bus stop D. The 276 also has to stop at Tramway Avenue stop; fun times if they don't lengthen that bus stop or the drivers' game "How many buses can call at Stratford Broadway at the same time?" is going to continue. In conclusion, I forsee routes 25, 69, 158, 308, 425 & D8 change routing. Bow bound routes are likely to get out of Stratford as quickly as possible by heading directly to the High Street and missing the town centre altogether. Route 241 I believe may have a contrflow operation where it serves the town centre one way; links to Plaistow from the Library may still want to be left intact. Ditto goes to the lazy buggers who want Forest Gate from Morrison's but aren't bothered to walk to the 25/86. I say with no shame as I am, has, and always will be said lazy bugger!!
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Nov 3, 2016 14:46:55 GMT
I wonder how they plan to carry out the works without making Stratford a disaster zone I mean - will the buses be able to pass? Or get stuck for 40 minutes a là Aldgate-under-works or Old Street? And will the 257 need to be curtailed to Maryland, 158 diverted to Stratford City, 308, 69, 241 getting some weird diversions…?? Let's remember how awfully busy the Stratford-Leyton-Walthamstow corridor is (bring back the Hall Farm curve dammit!!), and given Walthamstow is already under works, if Stratford will be also, I dread to think how congested the area will become In my opinion, although I like the idea of making stuff two-way (non-locals easily get lost at Stratford), I think this is way overdue however; and given how much traffic passes the area, it's no longer viable to do it. London and Stratford in general outgrew the possibility of doing this smoothly and averting a disaster. In the 1980s - sure thing man, bring it on - but now??? Very, very risky. :/ At least once completed, 308 will finally be able to serve Stratford Centre Wanstead-bound
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Post by snoggle on Nov 3, 2016 16:39:15 GMT
I wonder how they plan to carry out the works without making Stratford a disaster zone I mean - will the buses be able to pass? Or get stuck for 40 minutes a là Aldgate-under-works or Old Street? And will the 257 need to be curtailed to Maryland, 158 diverted to Stratford City, 308, 69, 241 getting some weird diversions…?? Let's remember how awfully busy the Stratford-Leyton-Walthamstow corridor is (bring back the Hall Farm curve dammit!!), and given Walthamstow is already under works, if Stratford will be also, I dread to think how congested the area will become In my opinion, although I like the idea of making stuff two-way (non-locals easily get lost at Stratford), I think this is way overdue however; and given how much traffic passes the area, it's no longer viable to do it. London and Stratford in general outgrew the possibility of doing this smoothly and averting a disaster. In the 1980s - sure thing man, bring it on - but now??? Very, very risky. :/ At least once completed, 308 will finally be able to serve Stratford Centre Wanstead-bound I don't necessarily disagree with your predictions of doom but that won't stop Newham or TfL. What we have now is a new traffic planning orthodoxy a part of which is to remove gyratories. These things go in cycles - we are now seeing the current fashion which is to undo what was done in the 60s and 70s. Some of that will no doubt bring benefits because some gyratories are horrible and dangerous. However there are downsides too - you take out a lot of capacity in key places. Now if all that did was deter a material number of car journeys then all well and good in the greater scheme of things. I don't mind if we're trying to push a proportion of people to make different modal choices - especially at somewhere like Stratford which has excellent connectivity. However what we end up with is everything being slower, more cumbersome and an identikit approach to styling pedestrian areas and "shared space". Shared space really doesn't work because motorists think it's a road, pedestrians think it's a pavement and therein lies a recipe for accidents. If you don't want vehicles then don't have them. If do want vehicular access then make the road clear. It's not hard. The fact that buses end up much slower / costly to operate and deliveries and legitimate business access become more difficult is where I struggle. A busy place like Stratford needs buses that get better not worse and the businesses that trade there need efficient logistics. The way TfL usually do these works is to faff around at all of the junctions to restyle them and to make any requisite changes to kerb lines to set the future layout's structure. Then it's install the traffic lights and crossings. Then it's put in the road markings and bus shelters / stops. Then it's switchover time and finally there's a load of paving and landscaping works. The first phase is always the killer because it takes out so much capacity and the impact changes over time. I fully expect East Londoners will see well over a year of badly disrupted bus services given how far routes radiate out from Stratford. Still we're now into our 3rd or possibly 4th year of nonsense in Waltham Forest and we haven't even got to the point of reconstructing most of Lea Bridge Road, Forest Road, Bell Corner, Blackhorse Rd and Whipps Cross junctions. That's at least a year's work if all that is done in parallel but it may not be so let's say another 18-21 months. That will definitely overlap with the works at Stratford. I think the Stratford - T Hale trains will get a lot busier! And just imagine when the Council apply to TfL for Mini Holland Phase 2 funding (bound to happen).
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 3, 2016 18:02:15 GMT
I can see a lot of u turns being performed on Stratford Broadway due to not being able to turn right into Tramway Avenue. Especially minicabs and taxis instead of going around Great Eastern Road.
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Post by sid on Nov 3, 2016 18:04:47 GMT
Spotted courtesy of Diamond Geezer's blog. Newham Council are planning to remove the gyratory road layout at Stratford and turn all roads two way! www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Stratford-town-centre-improvements.aspxExplanatory LeafletNot read it in huge detail but looks as if it will have quite an impact on the bus network. Coaches are being shifted to Montfitchet Road - quite a trek if you arrive on a local bus and need to make a connection. There are also some local consultation sessions - including one today! Bus route changes will be consulted on separately. The bus station layout is also being changed quite substantially with stops round the perimeter and no separate access road / setting down point. I suspect a route like the 25 will be sent round via Morrisons and the bus station on w/b trips. Quite what happens with everything else is open to speculation but I suspect it will be the old classic of "shortest route" wins so the 158 will hook a right from Angel Lane and then straight into the bus stn rather than going round via the Broadway. It will also be interesting to see how TfL handle routes like the 241 and 308 - via the bus stn or via the Broadway direct with people having to walk to the bus / tube station. Why do all councils/TfL call any work 'improvement' works. Who knows if they will be an improvement. Its usually an improvement for some but much worse for others. Just call it 'works'. I had heard about these works and I am sure TfL have already been involved and I suspect they have some idea already about what they are looking to do. Looking at some of the new bus stop placements (and one removed), especially near the Angel Road Junction, the stops that is currently there for the 158, 241, 308 is not there. And the new on the opposite (anti -clockwise) is too far from the Angel ROad Junction. Baring that in mind it is almost certain that the 158, 241 and 308 will serve the station, short side and avoid Stratford Library. I also expect that the 69 will serve the short side and avoid the library. Also that would explain that new bus stop that I referred to being to far away from the Angel ROad junction. The 257 would then be the only bus serving the Library. I guess that all buses will use the station in both directions. There are usually far more positives than negatives and it's not only in London, there is a general trend to replace one way systems in many parts of the country. The original idea of them was to improve traffic flows but there are other priorities nowadays.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 3, 2016 18:27:40 GMT
I can see a lot of u turns being performed on Stratford Broadway due to not being able to turn right into Tramway Avenue. Especially minicabs and taxis instead of going around Great Eastern Road. Happens all the time at T Hale - people U turn right having exited the retail park by the bus stn and also on the bit at the bottom of Monument Way. Supposedly "designed out" by TfL but not in reality! As soon as people learn they face a long drive instead of a simple turn they do as say - "hook a U-ey".
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Post by vjaska on Nov 3, 2016 18:30:37 GMT
I can see a lot of u turns being performed on Stratford Broadway due to not being able to turn right into Tramway Avenue. Especially minicabs and taxis instead of going around Great Eastern Road. Happens all the time at T Hale - people U turn right having exited the retail park by the bus stn and also on the bit at the bottom of Monument Way. Supposedly "designed out" by TfL but not in reality! As soon as people learn they face a long drive instead of a simple turn they do as say - "hook a U-ey". Same in Brixton - since the changes to the one way system, cars wanting Acre Lane U-turn outside the town hall to avoid having to go around the one way system. The old layout had multiple traffic islands at the town hall which prevented any U-turns.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 3, 2016 18:30:40 GMT
Why do all councils/TfL call any work 'improvement' works. Who knows if they will be an improvement. Its usually an improvement for some but much worse for others. Just call it 'works'. I had heard about these works and I am sure TfL have already been involved and I suspect they have some idea already about what they are looking to do. Looking at some of the new bus stop placements (and one removed), especially near the Angel Road Junction, the stops that is currently there for the 158, 241, 308 is not there. And the new on the opposite (anti -clockwise) is too far from the Angel ROad Junction. Baring that in mind it is almost certain that the 158, 241 and 308 will serve the station, short side and avoid Stratford Library. I also expect that the 69 will serve the short side and avoid the library. Also that would explain that new bus stop that I referred to being to far away from the Angel ROad junction. The 257 would then be the only bus serving the Library. I guess that all buses will use the station in both directions. There are usually far more positives than negatives and it's not only in London, there is a general trend to replace one way systems in many parts of the country. The original idea of them was to improve traffic flows but there are other priorities nowadays. Wrong, there are other minority priorities these days due to their ever moaning protesting nature for using the road 2-3 hours in the morning and evening peak, then completely deserted at other times. There was a reason why they did these things to improve traffic flows, these people back then were geniuses. Now we have the numpties in charge that believe they could please everyone, and a society where the minority means everything.
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