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Post by snoggle on Jul 17, 2017 11:18:53 GMT
A slight tangent and I'm about to do what I complain about others doing - grinding the same old axe - but I'm deeply worried about the future of buses in London. There seems to be no-one who actively stands up for them in the face of the various cycling, safety and air quality pressure groups. The bus seems to be everyone's enemy at the moment and we need to find a way of giving the London bus user a voice that actually gets heard. Keep grinding. You're spot on and I think what we are seeing is a bit of "lobby" and "organisational" revenge against Buses that were considered to have a privileged existence within LT and then the Ken era of TfL. We have seen a deliberate policy with Boris and Mayor Khan of appointing a "point of challenge" with Cycling or Active Travel Commissioners. They're only there to poke cushy bits of TfL with a big stick to see if they react. I get the impression that Buses are sitting there with multiple "stab wounds and bruises" from the ongoing poking and kicking they're getting from City Hall and all the quarters you cite. Declining patronage and falling revenue doesn't help either because opponents just go "the bus network is failing" and cite that as justification for more kicking and poking. I think some of this is the usual ridiculous, wasteful and pointless cycle of organisational "battle grounds" with various directorates in the ascendency and decline at any point in time. Happened all the time in LUL and was just pathetic - the organisational politics and game playing was draining. Some of it is also political vanity on the part of some former and current Assembly Members who, to be frank, should know better but clearly this is more about creating a legacy or a profile than it is doing the "right thing" overall. Back to that big picture again. Lots of these plans, proposals and report recommendations are fine *on their own* but are impossible to combine in an effective way without the result being a conflicted mess or else there being compromise involved and some people are not in the mood for compromise.
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Post by danorak on Jul 17, 2017 11:45:53 GMT
A slight tangent and I'm about to do what I complain about others doing - grinding the same old axe - but I'm deeply worried about the future of buses in London. There seems to be no-one who actively stands up for them in the face of the various cycling, safety and air quality pressure groups. The bus seems to be everyone's enemy at the moment and we need to find a way of giving the London bus user a voice that actually gets heard. Keep grinding. You're spot on and I think what we are seeing is a bit of "lobby" and "organisational" revenge against Buses that were considered to have a privileged existence within LT and then the Ken era of TfL. We have seen a deliberate policy with Boris and Mayor Khan of appointing a "point of challenge" with Cycling or Active Travel Commissioners. They're only there to poke cushy bits of TfL with a big stick to see if they react. I get the impression that Buses are sitting there with multiple "stab wounds and bruises" from the ongoing poking and kicking they're getting from City Hall and all the quarters you cite. Declining patronage and falling revenue doesn't help either because opponents just go "the bus network is failing" and cite that as justification for more kicking and poking. I think some of this is the usual ridiculous, wasteful and pointless cycle of organisational "battle grounds" with various directorates in the ascendency and decline at any point in time. Happened all the time in LUL and was just pathetic - the organisational politics and game playing was draining. Some of it is also political vanity on the part of some former and current Assembly Members who, to be frank, should know better but clearly this is more about creating a legacy or a profile than it is doing the "right thing" overall. Back to that big picture again. Lots of these plans, proposals and report recommendations are fine *on their own* but are impossible to combine in an effective way without the result being a conflicted mess or else there being compromise involved and some people are not in the mood for compromise. Even just a tiny presentational change of emphasis would help. The good work on low emission buses is undermined by being presented as 'buses are filthy and we're cleaning them up' rather than 'look at this snazzy new clean bus that gets x polluting cars off the road'. It's deeply frustrating.
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Post by mondraker275 on Jul 17, 2017 16:59:41 GMT
Have not seen the full report or the details on how info was gathered, although clearly drivers were interviewed. Having said that, this report is nonsense and misleading. My main issue with it is that it seems to put the blame on these deaths and injuries on the drivers. I would like to know whether GLA were privy to the exact blame and causes of all incidents. I would think that it cannot entirely be the drivers fault. The title 'driven to distraction' is a disgrace. Clearly, the person coming up with it was distracted. I think the report is trying to be bold and impactful but if it pushes for things that try to solve an issue that does not exist then we are making the bus service worse for no reason. Another quote that London is one of the worst areas for incidents. Wonder why that is? ? Its all nonsense. In the face of it, the report is outlining what we already know - that drivers are overworked. It does not mean that it is the cause of the incidents otherwise we would have had more incidents and more serious incidents.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 17, 2017 17:16:03 GMT
A slight tangent and I'm about to do what I complain about others doing - grinding the same old axe - but I'm deeply worried about the future of buses in London. There seems to be no-one who actively stands up for them in the face of the various cycling, safety and air quality pressure groups. The bus seems to be everyone's enemy at the moment and we need to find a way of giving the London bus user a voice that actually gets heard. I hope a voice or two is found. As it is, there is only one game in town - cycling. Even the pedestrian isn't really getting the best deal he/she can get. I suspect the bus has further to fall yet : comadad and his allies will see to that. I sympathise with his plight, but the bus is a very safe way to travel - honestly, it is! Let's not kick it any harder - it still has a most important role to play. I can't carry three musical instruments and a load of music on a bicycle, and as I've said before - ruin the bus network, and I will buy a car - which isn't what TfL want, I'm sure!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 17:40:18 GMT
Some cyclists are now so aggressive - breaking road traffic laws etc. All very well encouraging cycling. But they will need to "police" them properly soon, like giving tickets out for red lights. Just like other road users , cyclists who break the law should not constantly been given the blind eye by the authorities.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 17, 2017 18:02:10 GMT
Have not seen the full report or the details on how info was gathered, although clearly drivers were interviewed. Having said that, this report is nonsense and misleading. My main issue with it is that it seems to put the blame on these deaths and injuries on the drivers. I would like to know whether GLA were privy to the exact blame and causes of all incidents. I would think that it cannot entirely be the drivers fault. The title 'driven to distraction' is a disgrace. Clearly, the person coming up with it was distracted. I think the report is trying to be bold and impactful but if it pushes for things that try to solve an issue that does not exist then we are making the bus service worse for no reason. Another quote that London is one of the worst areas for incidents. Wonder why that is? ? Its all nonsense. In the face of it, the report is outlining what we already know - that drivers are overworked. It does not mean that it is the cause of the incidents otherwise we would have had more incidents and more serious incidents. I have read the summary and the recommendations. I have not read the detail and I deliberately avoided watching webcasts of the meetings held during the research stage. Given the pressure Comadad has put on various politicians it was, unfortunately, inevitable that bus drivers would be portrayed as "incompetent" (my word) and pedestrians as blameless. Can't have people being held responsible for how they cross roads now can we? There are several statements in the summary that are, for me, inflammatory and clearly not based on any demonstrable evidence given no examples are given to support what is being said. This report, if accepted in full by TfL, will simultaneously load a wodge of cost and bureaucracy on to TfL; slow down buses to worse than walking pace if that were possible; reduce revenue and patronage and worsen the public's perception of bus drivers. For example where the hell is the money going to come from for every route in London to have a driver's toilet facility provided by the end of 2018. Obviously it is important that drivers can take PNRs and not be distracted by a bursting bladder but that recommendation is quite something to implement given many routes don't have toilets at termini. To take one example - somewhere like Romford with a lot of cross town routes and multiple terminal points can't be easy to fix. It is also likely to be highly damaging, in the medium term, to the companies running the routes. There is a background political pressure in the recommendations for TfL to be more and more intrusive in day to day operations. If TfL head down this path then at some point one or two of the operators will decide enough is enough. There is a delicate balance here between proper, structured oversight of things like maintenance and safety and going too far and sticking your nose in where you're adding no value. As I expected this report is a biased, unsubstantiated load of nonsense. I don't expect the service planning one will exactly be full of insight and sparking recommendations.
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Post by ServerKing on Jul 17, 2017 18:11:40 GMT
General questions 1. Is London’s bus network fit for purpose?In parts, it is, but people prefer the comfort of their car or Uber than wait for a vaguely-blinded bus with no creature comforts like WiFi or USB charging 2. How does the bus system compare in inner and outer London?Inner London routes are torturous, especially sections ruined by Cycle Commuter Lanes (laughably called 'super highways') 3. What different challenges do the inner and outer networks face?Inner London: Congestion caused by Cycle Lanes (see above) leading to more pollution. Reliability and age of vehicles (see 123, 258 ) Designing the bus network 4. How well do TfL currently plan bus routes?Monthly Tombola / Raffle held each first Tuesday of the month, depending on what cash is left over from hare-brained schemes (see Barkingside Branding, X26 reboot) Jest aside, it's not looking good for TfL... they have lost their mojo, and don't try as hard as Provincial operators outside the Capital. For Joe Public, it's p!ss-poor, sorry. Everything looks the same red, no marketing, nothing to attract people to the network. New buses? So what, I've got a new car, I'll sit in that, is the mindset. BBC London are doing a piece on bus crashes and driver training / fatigue / stress / road-rage. But in defence of the drivers, it's the crap environment you have to drive in, each tree-hugging Council is cutting speed limits to 20, making journies slower. Throw in the gauntlet of the Tour de France every morning with militant cyclists I don't have the same enthusiasm as before, despite baing back in Arriva heartlands surrounded by my beloved VLA's
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 17, 2017 18:12:16 GMT
Some cyclists are now so aggressive - breaking road traffic laws etc. All very well encouraging cycling. But they will need to "police" them properly soon, like giving tickets out for red lights. Just like other road users , cyclists who break the law should not constantly been given the blind eye by the authorities. In the current climate, there is not any chance whatsoever that cyclists will be blamed for anything, and many are aware of this and will cycle in frankly appalling ways, knowing full well that they will probably get away with it.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 17, 2017 21:29:30 GMT
Some cyclists are now so aggressive - breaking road traffic laws etc. All very well encouraging cycling. But they will need to "police" them properly soon, like giving tickets out for red lights. Just like other road users , cyclists who break the law should not constantly been given the blind eye by the authorities. In the current climate, there is not any chance whatsoever that cyclists will be blamed for anything, and many are aware of this and will cycle in frankly appalling ways, knowing full well that they will probably get away with it. Like the cyclist who was killed by a lorry in Aldgate despite the fact he was cycling the wrong way along a one way street..... Of all the cycle spokespeople to have aired their views that I've heard, only one had some ounce of sense and no bias - I can't remember her name but she was on the ITV News one time and whilst she was pro cycling, she also said that more needed to be done to catch those cyclists who break the rules of the road and for investment in public transport such as buses - honestly, I nearly fell off the chair in astonishment that a cycling spokesperson actually gave two hoots about public transport and removing dangerous cyclists from the road I believe she even said that maybe some sort of license system may have to be looked at but I'm not 100% certain on that last bit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 21:59:32 GMT
There have been several serious accidents between cyclists themselves. These aren't recorded as road traffic accidents as no motor vehicle involved. I know of at least one which has been near fatal.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 18, 2017 1:59:17 GMT
There is no one sticking up for buses and Leon Daniels seems to have gone soft and Peter Hendy given up. Buses are constantly demonised and then when passenger numbers are dropping they wonder why. TfL and the stupid eco pressure groups are the cause. They do everything to punish the car, but in the end the biggest casualty would always be the bus.
If someone was to drop out of the sky and be hit by a bus, the bus would be in the wrong, and if the same situation happened with a train they wouldn't even bother to question whether the driver could have stopped or not. They remove railing that were meant to stop people from jaywalking, but because people complain and pressure groups won their way about being fenced in like cattle, then they are removed and we get more people getting knocked over and even worse now with brain dead people on smart phones.
These days bus drivers are more cautious than anything else. Companies are very strict compared to say 15-20 years ago. The littlest of thing whether a scratch or a mirror hits another vehicle or street furniture the driver is guaranteed a visit in the office to the manager for a disciplinary caution or suspension. 15-20 years ago drivers were doing far more rest day workings and overtime hours before or after duty than they are now as there was a far greater driver shortage. It was common at most garages for many duties per day not being covered. Although accidents of people being killed was not as high - so its a nonsense imo to blame drivers being overworked.
People are deserting buses for a very good reason, they do not have all day to just sit around on crawling buses in traffic or sat behind cyclists weaving in and out of buses or the slow ones riding at 5 mph. We are in a time conscious society in London and every minute and second counts! Removal of buses lanes for cycle havens have increased journey times and political correctly 20 zones that are ill thought out.
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Post by ServerKing on Jul 18, 2017 2:55:51 GMT
There is no one sticking up for buses and Leon Daniels seems to have gone soft and Peter Hendy given up. Buses are constantly demonised and then when passenger numbers are dropping they wonder why. TfL and the stupid eco pressure groups are the cause. They do everything to punish the car, but in the end the biggest casualty would always be the bus.
If someone was to drop out of the sky and be hit by a bus, the bus would be in the wrong, and if the same situation happened with a train they wouldn't even bother to question whether the driver could have stopped or not. They remove railing that were meant to stop people from jaywalking, but because people complain and pressure groups won their way about being fenced in like cattle, then they are removed and we get more people getting knocked over and even worse now with brain dead people on smart phones.
These days bus drivers are more cautious than anything else. Companies are very strict compared to say 15-20 years ago. The littlest of thing whether a scratch or a mirror hits another vehicle or street furniture the driver is guaranteed a visit in the office to the manager for a disciplinary caution or suspension. 15-20 years ago drivers were doing far more rest day workings and overtime hours before or after duty than they are now as there was a far greater driver shortage. It was common at most garages for many duties per day not being covered. Although accidents of people being killed was not as high - so its a nonsense imo to blame drivers being overworked.
People are deserting buses for a very good reason, they do not have all day to just sit around on crawling buses in traffic or sat behind cyclists weaving in and out of buses or the slow ones riding at 5 mph. We are in a time conscious society in London and every minute and second counts! Removal of buses lanes for cycle havens have increased journey times and political correctly 20 zones that are ill thought out. In 20 zones, you generally burn more fuel as most vehicles have to use higher gears and more revs (generally 2nd / 3rd gear, including cars etc), plus it then gives cyclists a chance to be as fast / faster than you It's the Tory mentality of making something crap and unappealing so you can eventually bin it (see NHS), they would love to cut TfL budget down, but wouldn't dare at the minute. I guess it's a push to get people onto the Elizabeth Line and off buses and to pedestrianise large swathes of the city centre, using "pollution" as the reason why they are killing the bus network. If the future of buses is now the outskirts of London then I would create more cross border services like the 465 and 370 rather than cut them (402 goes this week...), at least decent speeds and thrashing is guaranteed Bring back 80% red livery and give operators more creativity to encourage people back onto buses by doing their own branding, but I think we've missed the bus with this now At least the Underground is getting better and I think the future is rail... but passenger numbers for buses will continue to fall. Bad publicity hasn't helped, the LT window fiasco plus the cycle lanes plus congestion, and not seeing that people have changed shopping habits and buy online. TfL need to start looking to the world outside the M25 if they want sensible answers if anyone can still be bothered...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 5:59:14 GMT
I read the evening standard article on this report.
In the comments section someone pointed out that most of the fatalities were pedestrians.
Now part of the problem is the growing fanaticism in this country of people on the moral side of the argument, making it very difficult for anyone to present reasoned debate with them.
Because for one thing, death is more likely if you're hit by a bus, simply because its a bus. Its big and heavy rather like a lorry.
Ditto cycling, as the example given shows about the wrong way up one way street crash. More and more cyclists use the fact they're in London and that's how things work round here as some sort of excuse for cycling like cretins.
I used to cycle to work before all this priority stuff. And you learn, that you never play with lorries or buses. This lot think they're invincible, both in body and law. Which actually makes them bloody dangerous
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Post by snowman on Jul 18, 2017 6:57:54 GMT
I read the evening standard article on this report. In the comments section someone pointed out that most of the fatalities were pedestrians. Now part of the problem is the growing fanaticism in this country of people on the moral side of the argument, making it very difficult for anyone to present reasoned debate with them. Because for one thing, death is more likely if you're hit by a bus, simply because its a bus. Its big and heavy rather like a lorry. Ditto cycling, as the example given shows about the wrong way up one way street crash. More and more cyclists use the fact they're in London and that's how things work round here as some sort of excuse for cycling like cretins. I used to cycle to work before all this priority stuff. And you learn, that you never play with lorries or buses. This lot think they're invincible, both in body and law. Which actually makes them bloody dangerous Many years ago I did a course on safety risks, and what you say is exactly the basis of unintended increase in risk. In basic terms if you overdo safety, the element of risk is forgotten and people become careless. No one would attempt to walk across a 4 lane road without looking, but they might where there is only two almost stationary lines of traffic. I give that example because Oxford Street was like that when I was a child. It's also due to safety culture gone mad, when I was young, if you grazed yourself on rough concrete in a playground, or got stung on nettles you learnt not to do it again, removing that learning experience has made some idiots think they are invincible.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 18, 2017 10:24:13 GMT
A couple of comments for Mr Omnibus and Server King.
I sincerely hope Mr Hendy isn't caring. He left TfL 2 years ago to become Chairman of Network Rail. Mike Brown is the TfL Commissioner. It is worth noting that the scope of Mr Daniels role was reshaped over a year ago - he is now responsible for all contracted services including DLR and Overground as well as bus services. I think he still has roads in his portfolio but as I said the other day there is pressure to separate cycling and walking away into a new directorate to create deliberate organisational tension within TfL. A classic move when you want something to have priority over other things.
One remark from the "Route Masters Running London" series that stuck with me is the comment about bus drivers now being logged / monitored / tracked more than ever before. I think this is the thing that creates stress. There are so many "eyes" watching what is going on - speed monitors, I-Bus, CCTV on the bus and on the road, Centrecomm, the public all toting cameras on their phones. Having to be perform "perfectly" in the midst of often appalling driving from others and ridiculous traffic conditions must be an enormous source of stress. That would be my guess as to what has fundamentally changed in 15-20 years.
The government has cut TfL's funding - the revenue grant has gone from over £600m a few years back to zero next year. It was going to go in 2020 but Osborne accelerated the cuts to 2018. Boris Johnson secretly agreed to the removal of revenue grant in return for a longer term capital investment settlement. As he didn't give a toss about shoving fares up every year this was easy for him. The reality is that it was a ludicrous decision in and of itself. It has been made *vastly* worse by Mayor Khan's fares freeze.
I accept that Server King uses the roads far more than I do but I think all the schemes that are worsening traffic (in his view) are from Boris's era. Mayor Khan has not initiated a single cycling or highway scheme since he came into office. Anything being done now was planned by the previous regime. Many "new" schemes are being reassessed, rescoped and rescheduled to try to avoid too many congestion impacts. You can tell nothing new has happened because the cycling lobby are jumping up and down demanding that he "gets a move on".
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