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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 6, 2017 11:09:23 GMT
The 5 was rerouted after many years of campaigning, but now our local MP is going to try and fight c2c to provide a higher frequency of trains to serve Barking: www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/news/view-from-the-house-bus-route-victory-but-fight-continues-1-5181234I know this will all be very much appreciated, but this might be treading waters where far more people are likely to be against this decision. Especially the people in Essex who would probably bypass all of Greater London if they had the chance. It will be interesting to see any outcome and how people who also use the service respond to this. Personally being a Barking resident I'm all for this idea as I get far more faster trains rather than the slow and packed District Line but it's not hard to see why many people will oppose. Will be interesting to see how all this pans out.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 6, 2017 20:24:28 GMT
The 5 was rerouted after many years of campaigning, but now our local MP is going to try and fight c2c to provide a higher frequency of trains to serve Barking: www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/news/view-from-the-house-bus-route-victory-but-fight-continues-1-5181234I know this will all be very much appreciated, but this might be treading waters where far more people are likely to be against this decision. Especially the people in Essex who would probably bypass all of Greater London if they had the chance. It will be interesting to see any outcome and how people who also use the service respond to this. Personally being a Barking resident I'm all for this idea as I get far more faster trains rather than the slow and packed District Line but it's not hard to see why many people will oppose. Will be interesting to see how all this pans out. It certainly will be interesting given recent history. Essex commuters "rebelled" against the DfT required Metro timetable because they didn't want *their* trains full up of horrible Londoners. The way C2C tried to resource the timetable didn't help as it shortened formations on trains into Essex which, naturally enough, went down like a lead balloon. As I have said before the people of Essex are just going to have to lump it I'm afraid. You don't build thousands of new homes in East London and then not stop the trains to get them to work. Whether the C2C franchise has enough extra rolling stock in it to get a lot of trains up to 12 car formation is questionable. I think it certainly increases the proportion but possibly not enough. If Thameside redevelopment continues then I suspect money will need to be spent to get signalling capacity increased (more pass trains but also more freight) and potentially on platform lengths (don't know if any locations are constrained to 8 car lengths via Rainham or Ockendon). With Beam Park station due to be built plus much of Barking Riverside and the old Ford works to be redeveloped the population increases may be considerable. I understand a lot of new houses are going in at Ockendon but I'm much less familiar with the wider Thurrock area and how it's developing. I suspect that Trenitalia may end up coming back to the DfT to request a franchise extension but with the promise of yet more trains being funded to expand capacity further. If nothing else the building of the Barking Riverside extension is going to plonk hundreds and probably thousands of extra people at Barking wanting trains towards Docklands and the City. Many will want to use C2C because of the fast journey times. It was telling in the Inspector's Report about the TWAO for Barking Riverside ext that C2C had expressed considerable concern about the impact of the 4 tph service on their operation. They were also deeply sceptical about building a new station at Ripple Road (I think it should be part of the Riverside ext but it won't be other than the design of the track and viaduct allowing for a future site) and said it would affect their ability to run their timetable. How true that is I don't know. It feels a little over-egged to me purely on the basis that they *must* have factored in the impact of known / likely schemes into their franchise projections as well as how growth would affect things like dwell times. I simply refuse to believe that their timetable is on such an enormous knife edge that it would collapse if an extra station or two (incl Beam Park) or longer dwell times occurred. If they are stupid enough to have planned with no flex in their assumptions around operability then they deserve any trouble that turns up.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 6, 2017 21:08:30 GMT
The 5 was rerouted after many years of campaigning, but now our local MP is going to try and fight c2c to provide a higher frequency of trains to serve Barking: www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/news/view-from-the-house-bus-route-victory-but-fight-continues-1-5181234I know this will all be very much appreciated, but this might be treading waters where far more people are likely to be against this decision. Especially the people in Essex who would probably bypass all of Greater London if they had the chance. It will be interesting to see any outcome and how people who also use the service respond to this. Personally being a Barking resident I'm all for this idea as I get far more faster trains rather than the slow and packed District Line but it's not hard to see why many people will oppose. Will be interesting to see how all this pans out. It certainly will be interesting given recent history. Essex commuters "rebelled" against the DfT required Metro timetable because they didn't want *their* trains full up of horrible Londoners. The way C2C tried to resource the timetable didn't help as it shortened formations on trains into Essex which, naturally enough, went down like a lead balloon. As I have said before the people of Essex are just going to have to lump it I'm afraid. You don't build thousands of new homes in East London and then not stop the trains to get them to work. Whether the C2C franchise has enough extra rolling stock in it to get a lot of trains up to 12 car formation is questionable. I think it certainly increases the proportion but possibly not enough. If Thameside redevelopment continues then I suspect money will need to be spent to get signalling capacity increased (more pass trains but also more freight) and potentially on platform lengths (don't know if any locations are constrained to 8 car lengths via Rainham or Ockendon). With Beam Park station due to be built plus much of Barking Riverside and the old Ford works to be redeveloped the population increases may be considerable. I understand a lot of new houses are going in at Ockendon but I'm much less familiar with the wider Thurrock area and how it's developing. I suspect that Trenitalia may end up coming back to the DfT to request a franchise extension but with the promise of yet more trains being funded to expand capacity further. If nothing else the building of the Barking Riverside extension is going to plonk hundreds and probably thousands of extra people at Barking wanting trains towards Docklands and the City. Many will want to use C2C because of the fast journey times. It was telling in the Inspector's Report about the TWAO for Barking Riverside ext that C2C had expressed considerable concern about the impact of the 4 tph service on their operation. They were also deeply sceptical about building a new station at Ripple Road (I think it should be part of the Riverside ext but it won't be other than the design of the track and viaduct allowing for a future site) and said it would affect their ability to run their timetable. How true that is I don't know. It feels a little over-egged to me purely on the basis that they *must* have factored in the impact of known / likely schemes into their franchise projections as well as how growth would affect things like dwell times. I simply refuse to believe that their timetable is on such an enormous knife edge that it would collapse if an extra station or two (incl Beam Park) or longer dwell times occurred. If they are stupid enough to have planned with no flex in their assumptions around operability then they deserve any trouble that turns up. I agree. c2c have the added benefit of being one of the few franchises that doesn't have to share its lines with many other services bar some freight. I've been stuck at West Ham a few times in the past month during the peak and quite a few have them have had waits of around 10 minutes, most of the time I just went down and across to the District Line, but that line already can't take many more people and the last thing it needs is even more people. Regarding the 12 car services, I imagine most stations on the network can take 12 cars, my only doubts would be Chafford Hundred and Ockendon. National Express did promise 68 extra carriages by 2019 and I imagine this will have carried across to Trenitalia, the only thing which worries me is that no order seems to have been placed and a 2019 due date seems to be very optimistic.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 6, 2017 21:35:32 GMT
Regarding the 12 car services, I imagine most stations on the network can take 12 cars, my only doubts would be Chafford Hundred and Ockendon. National Express did promise 68 extra carriages by 2019 and I imagine this will have carried across to Trenitalia, the only thing which worries me is that no order seems to have been placed and a 2019 due date seems to be very optimistic. Given Nat Express had to take on some of the speculative class 387 build on a short term lease it is possible that the phasing of the new trains has been altered with the leased 387s operating for a financially viable time period before being replaced. Therefore there may not be quite the same pressure to order new trains although the options will be getting harder given the enormous orders for Adventras from Crossrail, Greater Anglia and SWR. If C2C don't order trains before South Eastern is reawarded there may be significant issues in finding someone who can deliver trains when C2C need them.
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Post by john on Sept 8, 2017 11:27:11 GMT
In terms of Ockendon, alot of the new housing is on the old Ford site.....next to the station!! It's not just the platform length that's the issue either, it's a branch line where the only passing point is at Ockendon. Platform lengthening is possible though, not 100% on Chafford Hundred though.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 20, 2017 19:23:13 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Sept 20, 2017 20:57:04 GMT
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Post by snowman on Sept 21, 2017 5:40:02 GMT
Cue riots in Essex and Thurrock. I would worry a bit about the last comment, carrying 6500 extra from 2020 What are they planning to do, return the quick fix 387s and take on something high density like the 707s instead
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Post by TA1 on Sept 21, 2017 6:09:10 GMT
Cue riots in Essex and Thurrock. I would worry a bit about the last comment, carrying 6500 extra from 2020 What are they planning to do, return the quick fix 387s and take on something high density like the 707s instead I was under the impression that the 387/3's where on a short term lease/stop gap to provide extra capacity and are due for GTR operations. Speaking of the 707's, 001 & 002 are currently on overnight testing duties between Wimbledon Park Depot and Peterborough, testing out their pantographs. I believe they're the only two in the fleet to have pantographs. Once AGA dispose of their 379's, to retain bombardier fleet standardisation perhaps the 379's could be refurbished with the removal of the numerous luggage racks and upseated and moved to C2C.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 21, 2017 10:50:38 GMT
Cue riots in Essex and Thurrock. I would worry a bit about the last comment, carrying 6500 extra from 2020 What are they planning to do, return the quick fix 387s and take on something high density like the 707s instead Like TA1 I thought the 387s were a short term fix to stop the moaning when C2C did what the DfT asked. AFAIK C2C still have their original franchise commitments to bring in new trains over several years. Depending on how they conduct their tendering exercise it is plausible that C2C might end up with Adventras (like TfL) and they may have a more "metro" layout if C2C schedules are such that they remain on Grays - Fenchurch St services rather than the "main line" to Shoeburyness. Obviously more "metro"-esque trains will upset the good people of Essex and Thurrock but hey ho tough. There is an unknown here and that is what C2C negotiated with the DfT with respect to the short term hire of 387s and if their later obligations were also changed. Haven't seen anything public about that. The article suggests that timewise the obligations haven't changed for the first tranche of new stock but Mr Drury is quoted as saying the "differing needs of our passengers sometimes conflict" (nice understatement there) so I expect this one will run and run and run. I'm just waiting for some daft Essex MP or commuter group to start using the "misery line" tag again despite the fact the line is hugely reliable and very well run. It's unrecognisable from the worst days of BR / Network Southeast when they couldn't get the investment in track, signals and trains approved.
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Post by joefrombow on Sept 22, 2017 6:47:33 GMT
In terms of Ockendon, alot of the new housing is on the old Ford site.....next to the station!! It's not just the platform length that's the issue either, it's a branch line where the only passing point is at Ockendon. Platform lengthening is possible though, not 100% on Chafford Hundred though. All c2c Platforms can take 12 car trains they were extended around 2007/2008 I believe , but to date as I don't think they have enough trains none have ever ran on the Ockendon/Rainham lines . 12 car trains on c2c also have a Guard to close doors .
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 22, 2017 15:30:23 GMT
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Post by MoEnviro on Nov 22, 2017 16:47:17 GMT
They are becoming increasingly common across the national network, but I believe on the longer distance trains the only show reservation levels per carriage, not real time loadings.
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Post by zebedee104 on Nov 22, 2017 18:37:48 GMT
I doubt the c2c ones would work on real time either. The London Overground board at Shoreditch High Street shows historical data for each train and how it's been loaded over the last year (I think it was a year). It's a good idea though.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 22, 2017 20:07:53 GMT
I doubt the c2c ones would work on real time either. The London Overground board at Shoreditch High Street shows historical data for each train and how it's been loaded over the last year (I think it was a year). It's a good idea though. c2c do have a similar feature on their website showing the crowding levels, I imagine exactly the same data is used. However should that be the case I imagine Upminster will be the only station in London to actually get the feature displayed on screens. The data isn't available for Barking, West Ham or Limehouse nor is it available for the PM peak.
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