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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 8:48:25 GMT
Firstly , most of my life I've been interested in Londons buses. Back when I was younger, the variety of buses may not have been as varied as now, but the actual network of routes was far more interesting. Peak hour , daytime only & summer Sunday extensions were quite common. Different garages running on the same routes with different types of buses, and a sudden transformation on Sundays with no RM's out, and Titans and Metrobuses ruled the West End. That was interesting.
Now, all I see is blandness around. A sea of all over red. Operators and garages pretty much identical, all trying to out do each other in terms of cost cutting, efficiencies and just more blandness. TfL seem to regard running buses as something they have to do as opposed to wanting to do. The never ending "temporary frequency reductions" , buses turning short because of roadworks or bridge closures, the total lack of inspiration and money to provide new services and better links. Just look at how many decent ideas people on this group come up with. Will any of that happen ? Of course not. It's pure fantasy.
I love London and the variety of life within in it, and this is my most important interest, travelling through areas like Bethnal Green & Bermondsey will always interest me, and the best way , no matter where you are in the world, to savour local life , is to travel on a local bus. As for what bus, who operates it , I couldn't care less. It's red, has wheels.
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Post by Nathan on Feb 12, 2017 10:05:36 GMT
Now, all I see is blandness around. A sea of all over red. Operators and garages pretty much identical*, all trying to out do each other in terms of cost cutting, efficiencies and just more blandness. TfL seem to regard running buses as something they have to do as opposed to wanting to do. The never ending "temporary frequency reductions" , buses turning short because of roadworks or bridge closures, the total lack of inspiration and money to provide new services and better links. Just look at how many decent ideas people on this group come up with. Will any of that happen ? Of course not. It's pure fantasy. * - Isn't that pretty much how it used to be before privatisation? In any case, I starting to feel the same way as you do. For the better part of 18+ years I've loved the look and sound of buses. I've really had a chance to explore London buses (and London itself) in the last 7 years, and my passion has grown much stronger. But now, with all the traffic around the city it's just put me off wanting to travel buses and explore new routes. And I guess the fact that I've had a full-time job since graduating last summer plus other commitments, I don't have anywhere near as much time as I used to. The weekends are very limited in free time! Competition in any market can bring benefits. But in this market, the only real benefits I see is are very small (i.e. different liveries, different bus type, and other stuff enthusiasts like us would geek out about ). But to TfL and the bus companies, it seems as if it's only money money money as you mentioned, which is a shame. But what can you do? It's the only thing that makes what we love practical. But you know what, regardless of this I my passion still remains. When I was 6 I wanted to be a bus driver. My career path changed direction entirely since then towards the IT industry but at some point, if I can, I still want to do the thing I wanted to back then. Just for a short while for the experience. Hopefully that plan won't change. Anyway, I'm sorry that you've lost you're interest in buses for the reasons you've mentioned. I hope you'll find your passion again in the near future
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Post by snowman on Feb 12, 2017 10:56:01 GMT
I understand your frustration, there are parts that don't excite me anymore. I particularly don't like the way things seem to have become corrupted like the switch to nb4ls which appears to have overridden some tenders; the consultations that are just a misnamed statement of intent; and sloppy turnout of some buses (including missing blinds).
I used to find it interesting, now some of it is just embarrassing compared to the quality that existed in the past.
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Post by sid on Feb 12, 2017 11:54:30 GMT
I think there is still a case for some peak hour extensions although with shops now open on a Sunday things are obviously a lot lot different now. It's hard to argue against the 100% red rule, company names and liveries are meaningless to most passengers. I take your point about cost cutting, and I think that's why top notch operators like London United and Stagecoach aren't doing too well, but then again there has been some extravagance in the past. All things considered though I think there is still as much to be interested in today as there was years ago but I appreciate that opinions will vary on that.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 12, 2017 12:13:38 GMT
@rgd976 - and yet the situation you describe of poor performing services, a sea of all red and a lack of attention to detail could almost perfectly describe LT in the 1980s before the stirrings of route tendering started. It was also far, far worse in the 1970s if you know your LT history as I'm sure you do.
I can sort of understand your feelings. As I've said before I find the ubiquity of the NB4L in Central London as boring as hell hence why there are about 8 routes which I've not even photographed since they were converted. I can't bring myself to snap yet another "blancmange on wheels". However there is still change going on with unique developments like increasing use of new vehicle technologies. We still have variety in double deck designs and may get some more if rumours are true.
We have always had "waxing and waning" in the network - some LT garages were appalling, others were excellent. We had the same with independent operators running on contracted routes. We have the same now with the larger groups - both mixed fortunes corporately and between garages. I don't think this will ever change to be honest. Remember how the "end of Arriva" was being forecast wildly on this forum a year ago? Now look - decent enough contract retentions and wins in some places.
What may appear bland today will not seem so in the future which is partly why it is always good to take snaps of buses just "doing their thing". Remember we have seismic changes coming up off the back of Crossrail right across London so riding those routes and taking those snaps now is the thing to do before it all changes in big ways. You can't go back. Even if the buses are not "pressing your buttons" then your other interest in the urban geography of London should be a decent spur to your interest because lots of places are changing in fundamental ways and will never be the same again. We may decry places like Peckham, Old Kent Road, Elephant and Castle or Thamesmead but these long forgotten places are changing and will lose their character and populations as the dreaded gentrification sweeps in. Personally I think that's a great shame but maybe that's just me as I think cities need variety not bland uniformity which is just another form of ghettoisation.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 12, 2017 12:28:13 GMT
The London Bus Scene has got incredibly dull over the last 10 years or so personally on an enthusiast level - liveries started being removed to reveal the blandness that is 100% red, operators own specs have all been eradicated, vehicles are getting more and more dull due to emissions ratings and economical bits and bobs - a world away from the network I grew up with.
As a kid, I had loads of interesting buses to grow up with in Brixton - Titans, Metrobuses, Leyland Olympians (those three buses becoming my all time favourites), Volvo Citybuses, Volvo Olympians, and even in the low floor era with Darts, DLA's, AVL's, PDL's (the double deck ones with London General), PVL's, DW's & the brilliant Connex Tridents - all that variety made every bus journey different. If I was growing up today, I very much doubt I'd be interested in buses at all on that front. All the lovely liveries that have been consigned to history - London & Country two tone green & red, red & cream branding on the 159's RM's, Cowies Yellow Stripes, the excellent Metrobus yellow & blue, Stagecoach stripes & then swirls, Arriva's cowhorn etc - I could go on.
I did enjoy reading bus maps and seeing bus routes go further than they do now and the odd workings they did but whilst I miss it, there was good reasoning behind it personally. My favourite of these was the 109 - during the 90's, it ran in overlapping sections - Trafalgar Square to Croydon & Brixton to Purley with Sunday's running Trafalgar Square to Purley! Sadly being too young meant I never could ride these long routes and that would be one thing I'd love to go back and do. What also was great is bus journeys were much more quicker - in the 90's, 20mph speed limits practically didn't exist, there weren't nearly as many speed bumps as there are now and certainly main roads never had any unlike today not to mention there wasn't millions of traffic lights on the same road so even at worse, you were usually guaranteed a decent journey.
Overall, I do think I've lost some love for the London network as it's nowhere near as exciting as it once was and now that I've done all the standard routes in London, I'll be heading out of London a lot more - I suggest many more on here, particularly the youngsters, to give the provinces a go as its such a vastly different experience altogether - I've done Luton, Maidstone, Dublin, Blackpool, Brighton, Crawley & Eastbourne as well as nearly the entire Abellio Surrey network and all the journeys were great.
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Post by Alex on Feb 12, 2017 13:12:18 GMT
We may decry places like Peckham, Old Kent Road, Elephant and Castle or Thamesmead but these long forgotten places are changing and will lose their character and populations as the dreaded gentrification sweeps in. Yes - this is something that bothers me all of the time too - I won't go into the bits of gentrification I don't like (I'd be here all day), but I would say this has had an effect on my transport interest too. During my lifelong interest in London transport, it wasn't just the buses & trains I was interested with - it was the places connected with them too. For me it was about exploring and finding out about areas which was fascinating. Back street and more 'ordinary' routes out of the central area were particularly interesting. Now, as areas change, and London as a whole has developed a very unfriendly air about it, this has put a different taste on to everything........ @rgd976, I do know what you mean - but for me though the low point was the early 2000's. From the very interesting, and very atmospheric 1990's and going straight into that era. I found the change a bit too stark. Not just to do with transport, it was everything. The thing I don't get was during the 2010's it should have been a great era for public transport in London, probably up there with the 1930's. Passenger numbers were going up everywhere (tube, bus, train - though I know that trend is changing now), loads of new services taking place (like the immensely popular Overground, frequencies boosted on buses, a lot of new vehicles). Particularly on the tube, the passenger numbers were the highest they've ever been. The thing is, to enthusiasts and staff alike, the era didn't get the feeling that you would expect. As you say there was a feeling of cost cutting, companies wanting to change things (not for the better) and a lot of atmosphere lost as TfL wanted to see things take on a more uniformed, faceless approach instead. I would agree that all of that would have an effect on the level of interest. You're certainly not alone
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Post by YY13VKP on Feb 12, 2017 14:44:29 GMT
Well, put it this way, at least after this year, there should be no more New Routemasters entering service! I do see what you mean, the all over red livery is very bland and I miss the days of company liveries on London Buses. I grew up in the early 2000's when the blue and yellow Metrobus livery was still in force, and there were some great buses around, now we've just got bog standard New Routemasters. I do however like the E200's a lot, which operate most single decker routes nowadays.
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Post by danorak on Feb 12, 2017 15:32:02 GMT
What may appear bland today will not seem so in the future which is partly why it is always good to take snaps of buses just "doing their thing". This is one reason why I find the focus on photography at rallies so frustrating - it's the difference between taking a picture of an animal in a zoo or in the wild. Part of the fun at looking at old bus photos in books is the landscape they're in, the cars around them, the clothes people are wearing, the adverts and so on. That said, what's killing it a bit for me is congestion. When I was growing up, I would spend days exploring the network and other parts of London with my grandparents. It's inconceivable that I would ever make those journeys now, everything moves so slowly particularly in the centre. And of course, my grandparents have been dead for 25 years...
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Post by planesandtrains on Feb 12, 2017 15:49:03 GMT
The London Bus Scene has got incredibly dull over the last 10 years or so personally on an enthusiast level - liveries started being removed to reveal the blandness that is 100% red, operators own specs have all been eradicated, vehicles are getting more and more dull due to emissions ratings and economical bits and bobs - a world away from the network I grew up with. As a kid, I had loads of interesting buses to grow up with in Brixton - Titans, Metrobuses, Leyland Olympians (those three buses becoming my all time favourites), Volvo Citybuses, Volvo Olympians, and even in the low floor era with Darts, DLA's, AVL's, PDL's (the double deck ones with London General), PVL's, DW's & the brilliant Connex Tridents - all that variety made every bus journey different. If I was growing up today, I very much doubt I'd be interested in buses at all on that front. All the lovely liveries that have been consigned to history - London & Country two tone green & red, red & cream branding on the 159's RM's, Cowies Yellow Stripes, the excellent Metrobus yellow & blue, Stagecoach stripes & then swirls, Arriva's cowhorn etc - I could go on. I did enjoy reading bus maps and seeing bus routes go further than they do now and the odd workings they did but whilst I miss it, there was good reasoning behind it personally. My favourite of these was the 109 - during the 90's, it ran in overlapping sections - Trafalgar Square to Croydon & Brixton to Purley with Sunday's running Trafalgar Square to Purley! Sadly being too young meant I never could ride these long routes and that would be one thing I'd love to go back and do. What also was great is bus journeys were much more quicker - in the 90's, 20mph speed limits practically didn't exist, there weren't nearly as many speed bumps as there are now and certainly main roads never had any unlike today not to mention there wasn't millions of traffic lights on the same road so even at worse, you were usually guaranteed a decent journey. Overall, I do think I've lost some love for the London network as it's nowhere near as exciting as it once was and now that I've done all the standard routes in London, I'll be heading out of London a lot more - I suggest many more on here, particularly the youngsters, to give the provinces a go as its such a vastly different experience altogether - I've done Luton, Maidstone, Dublin, Blackpool, Brighton, Crawley & Eastbourne as well as nearly the entire Abellio Surrey network and all the journeys were great. Speaking of which I have also moved to doing a lot of Home Counties stuff, going on a trip to Brighton (all the way by public bus obviously, much to the disapproval of my parents ) Thank lord for the Discovery Ticket. Although from reading on other forums there used to be more extensive coverage back in the National Bus days. Part of the fun of bus riding is exploring new places. Because the truth is I do more travelling in Germany in a day than I do in an entire year in the UK. As for London, I do more and more travels by bus that I would have done by train previously. As for the bus scene getting duller, I spent my toddlerhood in Kensington surrounded by red Routemasters. It is vareity that counts however and Kingston does that very well.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 12, 2017 16:51:19 GMT
What may appear bland today will not seem so in the future which is partly why it is always good to take snaps of buses just "doing their thing". This is one reason why I find the focus on photography at rallies so frustrating - it's the difference between taking a picture of an animal in a zoo or in the wild. Part of the fun at looking at old bus photos in books is the landscape they're in, the cars around them, the clothes people are wearing, the adverts and so on. That said, what's killing it a bit for me is congestion. When I was growing up, I would spend days exploring the network and other parts of London with my grandparents. It's inconceivable that I would ever make those journeys now, everything moves so slowly particularly in the centre. And of course, my grandparents have been dead for 25 years... And yet my little ride around West London last week encountered barely any delays anywhere and I didn't wait longer than 8 minutes for any bus. I was lucky that the direction I choose avoided some ghastly traffic in the other direction (A316 closure near Whitton).
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Post by 725DYE on Feb 12, 2017 19:56:48 GMT
In recent years many drivers (and even some on this forum) have got fed up with driving and quit the industry due to traffic congestion. It seems like it happens a lot with central London routes, where conditions are either too chaotic or just boring. Personally, it was upto the end of 2014 after the 453's conversion to LT operation when I actually didn't mind the Routemasters. After that point they became too common and boring - a bit like the Enviro 200/400 you might say, but the fact that the Routemaster then became too common took the magic out of them because ultimately they were designed to be unique for London. Layout of buses has also become very standardised in recent years. The loss of the Euro 2 DLAs and DLPs has seen off the 2X4 longitunal seats at the bus rear which was always so fun and made the buses seem so much bigger. Back in the 60s/70s it wasn't so bad then despite the ubiquous RT-type, as they had character and were great fun to ride. In comparison, the LTs have been less interesting as they just lumber around London. Yes they may increase capacity, but they have definitely failed in the sector of cutting down in fare evasion since the bendy bus fass in the 00s. Regarding liveries, it really is a shame to see companies lose their unique identity, and (although not related) I do personally miss the old Go Ahead and Arriva moquettes - but at the same time we have gained the Tower Transit green livery as well as multiple additions to the long list of RTP moquettes . Then again, with rumours of the X26 gaining route branding, there's always a hope. In general, yes we may be going through a time of standardisation throughout the TFL bus network, there always is the chance to see things change, so I'm personally holding on as you never know what could happen in the future
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 20:02:34 GMT
Thanks for the replies.
There is that argument that pre privatisation was mundane with poor services. That's all I knew though. So when I started seeing the likes of Westlink, Scancoaches, London Buslines, Armchair, TGM, London Country South West running on routes formerly run by LBL subsidiaries it came as a shock. Of course some were better than others. Armchair was always excellent. TGM were appalling. I recall one FW bus driver saying to me ( around 1988) that everything was about to change. And he was right !
There was far more competition & variety around then and I was lucky to witness the turning point when operators were falling over themselves to be different and friendly.
Anyway I digress and ramble on.
One last interest I do have is the night routes. On these one can travel with no traffic , on nice long through routes and if you know your 24hr establishments well , can refresh oneself in an all night cafe and see London go to sleep and wake up 30 mins later.
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Post by Steve Macz on Feb 16, 2017 12:27:06 GMT
I have my scene as being interested in Buses UK wide. That's a good development. As you get different bus scenes in various parts of the country. I live in Yorkshire, but im a regular visitor to London. So always like to have a peep of what's going on in different areas.
Also no 2 bus operations in the U.K. Are ever the same, as it depends on the environment and location.
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Post by goaheadswvlrbest on Feb 16, 2017 19:08:32 GMT
I haven't posted on here in a while but I can understand where the OP and other members are coming from. I'm still interested in the London Bus scene due to its mass network of routes, I enjoy going on routes end to end like other members on here, its such a nice way to see diversity of different areas of London particually out of zone 1 .
I'm always fascinated by Tender results. different operators running routes, new vehicle types and new vehicles on a certain route, I find small things like certain garages I.E Bexleyheath, Croydon, Lea Interchange, Merton, Sutton etc etc who mix and match vehicle types variations always fun.
We do have more vehicle variety compared to 30 years ago. The LTs are quite dull now they are very common place apart from the overall advertisers. I do remember being excited by them at first when the first 8 started on the 38s. Back on a spring day in 2012 I was waiting enthusiastically at Victoria stn to get a ride on one, after 20mins LT6 turned up and I was particually impressed at first. I find the E400Citys quite boring the E400MMC seems to be the best new bus in my view hope we get plenty more. the frogface Gemini3 is growing on me but not quite as nice as the originals. I did find however the Titans, Metrobuses from years back had a bit of character and its also sad to see older Tridents, Volvo B7tls being withdrawn age and emissions etc. A few of you have said things went downhill in the early 2000s but that period also meant many routes were improved at a time when the congestion charge came about and a hell of a lot of new buses were introduced .
The gloss has been dulled mainly since 2015 in my view in the last couple of years id say echoing other members views
Traffic Congestion is just absolutely crazy now compared to a few years back. It is a problem in many of our towns and citys and operators are really struggling across the land. some days not so bad others its just quicker to walk, I'm afraid its difficult and time consuming to cruise along on a route and not much seems to be done about it, endless roadworks, cycle lane building, water main, gas main, too much going on at a time. Far too many minicabs clogging and blocking the roads. Tfl put a couple of extra vehicles in a new contract just maintain a service even thou its not improving frequency.
TFL seem to put the buses last ,granted a lot of new vehicles but they don't go anywhere that quick due to the above. Cost cutting is rife many routes being cut back notable being 159 cut to marble arch, 436 cut from central London diverted to Battersea all this puts off passengers as well as the planned Oxford Street changes and far too many curtailments nowadays
Consultations Well Well It seriously doesn't matter If there are 756 000 objections to what TFL propose to do they will still do it regardless it should just be worded as a service changes document .
Crossrail is another one I'm curious as to what will happen to surrounding bus networks I'm worried they will reduce the service by going on an assumption everyone wants to travel by train. then I will lose interest. TFl need to reverse the recent decline in passenger numbers all due to the above in my opinion .
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