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Post by snowman on Apr 24, 2017 21:20:13 GMT
Just out of interest, if this colour coded routes trial is successful, how do they intend to roll it out to 600 routes It's going to be virtually impossible to avoid same 2 colours meeting somewhere unless dozens of colours are used.
History says it will fail, Early Glasgow trams used a similar idea, but proved difficult once more than about dozen colours used. They discovered it was easier to number the routes and display the route number
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Post by routew15 on Apr 24, 2017 21:42:18 GMT
I managed to take a snap of one of the new spider maps. i.imgur.com/vYAS432.jpg It's worth noting a couple of flaws with this design. The map seems to work on corridors rather than actual routes. It makes it out that routes 62 and 368 have no relation to each other at all, despite both of them go to Chadwell Heath and via Lodge Avenue. Therefore seemingly there is one Chadwell Heath south of Barking and one to the north. It also completely ignores the fact that the 62 meets with the 287 and 368 at the infamous Lodge Avenue flyover. The map also ignores the 366s loop at Redbridge, as well as continuing to ignore the 62s loop at Gascoigne. On another note, the top right corner of the map (cut off in the picture) had a section for "other routes" and had route 689 which ran to Dagenham Park school I find this spider map really confusing . I admit I learnt my map reading on old 4 colour and 6 colour 1:50000 and 1:25000 Ordnance Survey maps (and a few inch to mile versions) but I can't follow this, it looks like abstract art. In my opinion: 1) It's geographically wrong, going East is never down, its right 2) It's wrong as a line diagram, as it shows connections to other modes but not other bus routes 3) The lines follow unnecessary curves 4) The name location is inconsistent, Everything to right except Longbridge Road Becontree Avenue, should be respaced to fit it in 5) similarly why is hail and ride wording on right and left of same route 6) The colour choice is dreadful 7) What's with a mix of solid lines and twin lines (ok twin lines are night routes or hail and ride, but not 24 hour routes) 8) The lines should come out of Barking name in same order so can see which goes through and not ends there (some would need to cross but that already happens in top half) 9) Why do ends of EL1 show daily (surely all the routes run daily unless otherwise shown), would be more logical to use the suffix for anything not everyday 10) It is poor graphic design to have names in mix of bold and light font (and having multiple Ripple Roads with the unique qualifier as light font) means unclear if name is just the bold bit, or whole name 11) bored of commenting now If it is designed to be used on a bus stop, the relevant stop should be at the top, not showing where bus has been to get to it. Go to any tube station and the principle is this station at the top, with stops from this platform only shown The local area (in this case Barking) is fine as the centre on the big poster maps, but not on a line diagram from this stop. In my view whoever (badly) designed this needs shooting Colour choice was my biggest angst. Those that are visually impaired (or even those that take a quick glance) have to decipher between an EL1 and 366 or a 5 and 287, which is quite unreasonable seeing as those Barking has a medium sized amount of routes in comparison to Elephant & Castle where colour clash maybe forgiven. This is quite a let down to surface transport team especially after so many positive comments on legible London scheme.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 24, 2017 23:53:34 GMT
Just out of interest, if this colour coded routes trial is successful, how do they intend to roll it out to 600 routes It's going to be virtually impossible to avoid same 2 colours meeting somewhere unless dozens of colours are used. History says it will fail, Early Glasgow trams used a similar idea, but proved difficult once more than about dozen colours used. They discovered it was easier to number the routes and display the route number Excellent point that it can't be rolled out network wide. I suspect it would ever be in defined local areas with careful attention paid to avoid covering multi centre routes. Can I just endorse the other comments made about colour choice. I'm colour blind and I could not properly make out the colours used on the routes along Cranbrook Road. Now OK I was inside a bus and didn't get a chance to look closely for a period of time but it seems I thought the 462 colour was orange but I've seen a comment elsewhere saying it's yellow. Furthermore I couldn't accurately distinguish those routes using blue and purple. Part of the problem is when you set colours beside one another but only in small displays and then expect people to cross compare between a map, timetable panels and stop tiles and, I assume, the bus itself. Now I have "odd" colour blindness given the colours I sometimes mix up but what TfL are putting in place really would not work for me at all. Obviously I have a good knowledge of the buses and tubes so colour doesn't bother me in London. It does get very difficult elsewhere though - Paris is not easy to navigate by Metro and other complex coloured bus maps can be a nightmare. It's as if TfL and operators have no clue about colour blindness at all when it comes to publicity. TfL certainly know about it in the context of employment given many jobs are barred to colour blind people (train operator, signalman, some engineering roles etc).
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Post by snoggle on Apr 25, 2017 0:27:24 GMT
Maybe I am missing something but these maps look similar to ones I have seen in Central London (Night bus?) A tube map is not exactly perfect in terms of location / direction of places. From a passenger point of view I think they look clear. Night bus maps tend to be based on sectors of London served. They also show all the routes in that sector even if they don't start in Central London. Therefore they do work like a tube map in that they show onward connections and interchange points. Given what the main role of the Night Bus network is - a replacement for the tube and trains - then this makes sense. Sorry if I'm "teaching you to suck eggs" - I don't mean to! content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/south-west-london-night-090116.pdfThe daytime bus network is another thing altogether because it is vastly more complex and involved. That TfL have managed, with some compromises, to have local spider maps across London is a huge achievement but they are essentially "local" and not a partial network representation. I don't think the new maps work at all well because the geography is all to pot and links and connections are not shown at all. *If* TfL had tried to create an "East London Spider Map" for daytime routes which consistent colours for the branded routes then that might have worked better but it would potentially be complex to use. TfL have seemingly decided to brand an area and then the routes. Commercial operators usually do branding solely at route level and make it integrated to that route. Occasionally, as with Trent Barton, you may get sub route variants with a "brand" like the Sixes with 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4 route variants. However it is rare that an entire area is served by only branded routes. That's true for Trent Barton, Go North East, Nottingham City Transport and, I think, Brighton and Hove / Metrobus. There are always some non branded routes alongside the branded ones. It would have made more sense to me if TfL had selected a sample of routes which either offered a good prospect for growth *or* which had lost passengers and needed to get them back. Doing a proper package of branding perhaps with new buses and a better service level would be a real test to see if Londoners respond to these things or not. Again this is what commercial operators do - look what Reading has done in recent years. I would not like Spider Maps to go if only for one reason - being able to quickly work out in a local area where you need to go to catch a bus. Somewhere like Bexleyheath or Bromley which I'm not hugely familiar with I find Spider Maps are essential in finding which stop I need and then where the heck it actually is. Given how counter intuitive some routes are in town centres then this is absolutely essential. No one would advocate abolishing the Tube Map. Lots of people say it's cluttered etc etc but it is a symbol of London and for many visitors and new people it IS London no matter how flawed that view is. After all the tube map is really only showing about 16 "lines" or services. It also greatly simplifies complex service patterns within some lines and also on Overground, DLR and Trams and will no doubt repeat the same trick with Crossrail. Therefore it's full of its own compromises. We are in grave danger of getting into a position where we lose the geographic quadrant maps *and* lose sensible Spider Maps off the back of this branding and "dumbing down" exercise. I can absolutely see TfL constructing the argument that paper maps at stops and being printed for the public to use are "too expensive" and "outdated" and "everyone" has a smartphone which they use to get around blah blah blah. That's partly true but not wholly true. So many people get lost using their phones because they're not accurate in GPS tracking and they're not a fail safe method either. I can use a paper bus map or a Spider Map at a stop far, far faster than Citymapper or anything else on a smartphone.
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 25, 2017 7:44:29 GMT
I have seen a lot of Bus tile work 'in progress' and not seen the finished work, so this was probably it. I will look out for this. I thought that the previous spider maps were very well designed, and the information was clear and also easy to use. However, when I saw this updated design and before I thought about ripping into TfL, I thought 'Why are TfL doing this?', then I thought 'Does geography matter?', and then I thought 'Does the spider map matter?'. I have come to the conclusion they dont. Why do we even have a map?. If I knew where I needed to go, I would look up the destination on the destination finder and have a list of the buses and the bus stops needed to catch those bus. I have the local area map, I find the bus stop. What does the spider map actually offer. The tube map for example is needed as you follow the stations through to your destination and if you need to change, you know what colours or lines to change from and to. Obviously the bus spider map shows all the buses of the area and not ones in an adjacent area to change with. Also, the destination finder is suffice for two routes from the same area going to the same area. You cant take a bus spider map with you, so its pointless also in that sense in terms of following your journey along. So TfL should think about getting rid of the spider map and improve the local area map, stating clearly where one is (or mention clearly 'to look at the bus stop plate of the bus stop your at'). Have it larger, with bus routes next to roads or bus stops like the 'large region area maps'. Some area maps cover such a vast area, people want to make journeys to another place within the map. Make the destination finder clearer especially to get people to catch the bus in the right direction. I find the most common issue is finding the correct bus stop not necessarily the correct bus. Can people see the point I am making about the spider map, its just dawned on me how pointless it is. Its been a long day, so I may have gone at this point. I disagree, I think the spider map is very convenient. Especially when placed at bus stops, many times I've found myself needing to go from A to B on the spot without any planning and the spider map has saved my guts. I was waiting at Waterloo and needed to get to Bricklayers, a 171 was coming in the distance and I ended up on it, luckily I realised quite quickly that the route didn't go Bricklayers and jumped off at Elephant where a Spider map saved me. Most people don't always have phones to take a look at, and the journey planner is such a nuisance to use now to a point that if I do use my phone I end up downloading the local spider map anyway. the spider maps were useful as they are and they didn't need a single change made to the design. In other news, today I saw in person the coloured stop tiles and the "24hr Daily" symbol on the 128 has been moved from above the route number to below the route number and reverted back to the old "24 hour" sign . No indication of if it was a daily or a weekend night route. I imagine they can get away with the 128 as it's a daily night route, but what about the weekend night routes? They'll almost certainly cause confusion if a similar principle is applied. I dont think you get the point. The information display at the bus stops have 4 parts usually. The local area map (in the middle of the spider, although on the new design separated out), the spider lines/map, the destination finder, and the route lists with destination. I am asking what the 'spider lines' actually gives of any benefit or use. We will still have the destination finder, local map and the routes lists although I dont see the point of the latter either. The destination finder is not on the online spider maps btw. In your example, you would have looked up Bricklayers Arms on the destination finder, that would of given a list of routes and the bus stops to catch them. You would have then used the local map to find the bus stop. If I dont know where Bricklayers Arms is where on a complicated spider diagram would I look? Do I look east, west, north or south of where I am? You knew the general direction, but most people would not. However, almost everybody knows that Bricklayers begins with B. Essentially, would you have got to Bricklayers with just the destination finder and local map?
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Post by busoccultation on Apr 28, 2017 12:00:30 GMT
The Colours of each route in Barkingside: 128 - Purple150 - Sky Blue167 - Royal Blue169 - Green247 - Yellow275 - Pink462 - Orange
The picture of a bus stop of what they look like:
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Post by John tuthill on Apr 28, 2017 13:23:41 GMT
The Colours of each route in Barkingside: 128 - Purple150 - Sky Blue167 - Royal Blue169 - Green247 - Yellow275 - Pink462 - Orange
The picture of a bus stop of what they look like:
The 'Fremantle Road' stop flag, i wonder how long the colours will be legible after being in the sunshine for a while?
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Post by redbus on Apr 28, 2017 14:58:11 GMT
Thanks for the pictures, now it all becomes clearer (in colour!) to me!!
The spider maps now make more sense, but the geography as has been said is non-existent and the colours don't really gel.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 28, 2017 15:10:14 GMT
Furthermore to the exterior branding, spider maps & colour coded bus stop tiles, the branded buses also have route diagrams inside.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 28, 2017 16:14:44 GMT
I still don't quite understand how this works. I understand on the Barkingside spider map the 247 is coloured yellow and so the stops have a yellow sticker but do now all 247 stops have yellow stickers and would let's say the Romford spider map have the 247 shown with a yellow line? What would happen with somewhere like Croydon that has 20+ routes. Every stop title for each route have a colour as surely they wouldn't have enough colours to use.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 28, 2017 19:39:28 GMT
I still don't quite understand how this works. I understand on the Barkingside spider map the 247 is coloured yellow and so the stops have a yellow sticker but do now all 247 stops have yellow stickers and would let's say the Romford spider map have the 247 shown with a yellow line? What would happen with somewhere like Croydon that has 20+ routes. Every stop title for each route have a colour as surely they wouldn't have enough colours to use. It can't really work on a big, complex network such as London's. All the tiles for a route have the colour - the 275's tiles in E17 have coloured strips. If this trial is deemed a success then I expect TfL will do "area" promotions but the areas will need to be relatively self contained or else you end up with an uncontrollable mess.
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 29, 2017 9:06:37 GMT
I still don't quite understand how this works. I understand on the Barkingside spider map the 247 is coloured yellow and so the stops have a yellow sticker but do now all 247 stops have yellow stickers and would let's say the Romford spider map have the 247 shown with a yellow line? What would happen with somewhere like Croydon that has 20+ routes. Every stop title for each route have a colour as surely they wouldn't have enough colours to use. It can't really work on a big, complex network such as London's. All the tiles for a route have the colour - the 275's tiles in E17 have coloured strips. If this trial is deemed a success then I expect TfL will do "area" promotions but the areas will need to be relatively self contained or else you end up with an uncontrollable mess. I saw the pink sticker on the 275 stop at St James Street. It 'looks' smart at the bus stop in Barkingside, with the routes and stickers but at St James Street what does the pink sticker mean to anybody? Also, look at the spider map at the St James Street stop and 275 is red. So its not going to work at all even if it is self contained. Actually, it would work if its self contained in TfL offices and never to be heard of again. Looking at the bus stop tile picture above, the colours differentiate between the routes, but doesn't the fact the routes have different numbers do that for us?, No one thinks that the 247 and the 275 are the same. Unless, TfL literally paint the roads the 275 uses pink then this makes no sense. It would make more sense to me, if they were colour grouped. So that those routes headed for 'Newbury Park' were all red, and those headed for 'Gants Hill' were all black.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 29, 2017 18:24:35 GMT
I saw my first colour coded panel timetables today while waiting for a bus in Ilford. All that is different is that the route number and "line diagram" are in the "line" colour. There is nothing else to explain the colours. The Spider Map at the stop hadn't been changed. I didn't see any route branded buses on my travels either.
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