Quadrant Bus Maps

[snoggle]

You may well be aware that TfL publish 4 printed quadrant bus maps and a Central London bus map. I've heard rumours elsewhere they're for the chop. On hearing this I posed a question to Mr Daniels via another forum to confirm or deny the rumour - answer there came none. I then asked the "TfL Director of Customer Comms" (Vernon Everitt) via a Twitter chat whether they were being axed. Although his answer was not definite he did say TfL were going to be publishing something different. Tonight I have heard from a reliable source that TfL have cancelled their contract with FWT who I understand supply the mapping and cartography service for the basis of these maps. We can therefore reasonably assume that the Quadrant Bus Map is dead and buried.

Personally I think this is a travesty given I use the maps daily for a wide variety of reasons. Another example of the plot being well and truly lost at TfL Towers.

[Eastlondoner62]

I wonder if this is a cost cutting measure, I wonder how much the contract with FWT was costing them and if it had any impact on their decision to terminate the contract with them.    What I really hope is that this "something different" isn't another load of nonsense like that new style of spider map. Even though exact geographic representations might not be as easy to read many people still do use them to get around and try to get an idea of the bus network.

[snoggle]

May 9, 2017 19:02:43 GMT Eastlondoner62 said:

I wonder if this is a cost cutting measure, I wonder how much the contract with FWT was costing them and if it had any impact on their decision to terminate the contract with them.    What I really hope is that this "something different" isn't another load of nonsense like that new style of spider map. Even though exact geographic representations might not be as easy to read many people still do use them to get around and try to get an idea of the bus network.

I think it's a combination of things. I agree it may be a cost cutting measure to save money (and lose how much fare income as a result?) but I also get a sense of TfL reorganisation and "new people" deciding they need to make their mark by introducing something new and getting rid of "old fashioned" material. We all know what happens when this empire building / point proving b*ll*cks happens. It all goes wrong and then people try to cover up their mistakes. Clever people don't make mistakes and take advice and learn the lessons of history.

The quote below is what Mr Everitt said in response to my direct question as to whether quadrant bus maps would be scrapped. These new things sound, from very little info, like some superficial multi modal guide for specific areas. We've been here umpteen times in the past and each time the initiative has tied the death.

We are including new travel options leaflets which will have transport ops available at bus stations & other locations

[lonmark]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo, i will be lost without bus map online rather than using the bus stops or bus routes online. I perfer the bus map online only if they can't afford to print the bus map then don't do it but keep map online.

I am so annoy with TfL for fail to provide the spider bus maps!! Nothing change for ages! Wish All TfL staffs and manager get on with it and provide us a bus map online or Spider bus map online. SO why it is ok for them to do Tube, National Railway and other railway map but NOT bus maps?

[vjaska]

May 9, 2017 18:50:57 GMT snoggle said:

You may well be aware that TfL publish 4 printed quadrant bus maps and a Central London bus map. I've heard rumours elsewhere they're for the chop. On hearing this I posed a question to Mr Daniels via another forum to confirm or deny the rumour - answer there came none. I then asked the "TfL Director of Customer Comms" (Vernon Everitt) via a Twitter chat whether they were being axed. Although his answer was not definite he did say TfL were going to be publishing something different. Tonight I have heard from a reliable source that TfL have cancelled their contract with FWT who I understand supply the mapping and cartography service for the basis of these maps. We can therefore reasonably assume that the Quadrant Bus Map is dead and buried.

Personally I think this is a travesty given I use the maps daily for a wide variety of reasons. Another example of the plot being well and truly lost at TfL Towers.

I think I reported on here a while back that I was told the quadrant maps will be scrapped in its paper form so it's no surprise it's sadly supposedly going ahead.

I await clarification on whether this includes the online ones as well.

[snoggle]

May 9, 2017 20:52:45 GMT vjaska said:

May 9, 2017 18:50:57 GMT snoggle said:

You may well be aware that TfL publish 4 printed quadrant bus maps and a Central London bus map. I've heard rumours elsewhere they're for the chop. On hearing this I posed a question to Mr Daniels via another forum to confirm or deny the rumour - answer there came none. I then asked the "TfL Director of Customer Comms" (Vernon Everitt) via a Twitter chat whether they were being axed. Although his answer was not definite he did say TfL were going to be publishing something different. Tonight I have heard from a reliable source that TfL have cancelled their contract with FWT who I understand supply the mapping and cartography service for the basis of these maps. We can therefore reasonably assume that the Quadrant Bus Map is dead and buried.

Personally I think this is a travesty given I use the maps daily for a wide variety of reasons. Another example of the plot being well and truly lost at TfL Towers.

I think I reported on here a while back that I was told the quadrant maps will be scrapped in its paper form so it's no surprise it's sadly supposedly going ahead.

I await clarification on whether this includes the online ones as well.

I can't see how TfL could continue with online versions given they're based on FWT's mapping and they've cancelled the contract. TfL won't own the IPR to the underlying map format over which they place their route information. FWT might have granted them a license to use but that will have involved money changing hands.

I've sent in a Mayor's Question to my AM on the topic but it won't get to a MQT meeting for several weeks because of &$(%(£$^((£(*& general election.

[busman]

I was never fond of the quadrants, partly because I grew up on the Greater London bus map along with multiple local maps for each borough. I would like to see a digital greater London bus map, possibly adapted from Google Maps so one can easily see how close buses stop to each local side street. Everything can be contained in one document or app, so no need to switch between 5 different files. As for print, I'm not surprised it's going altogether. Most people plan journeys online these days using the dreaded TfL journey planner 💩💩💩

If they switch solely to spider nonsense, then I'm done with tracking where each bus goes. Seems that the ability to read a proper map is considered a skill in this day and age.

[twobellstogo]

Had a look at the Mike Harris bus map website : they are having severe technical difficulties preventing the 2017 map from foreseeable publication, so there isn't even that option for the time being

[snoggle]

May 10, 2017 10:22:02 GMT busman said:

I was never fond of the quadrants, partly because I grew up on the Greater London bus map along with multiple local maps for each borough. I would like to see a digital greater London bus map, possibly adapted from Google Maps so one can easily see how close buses stop to each local side street. Everything can be contained in one document or app, so no need to switch between 5 different files. As for print, I'm not surprised it's going altogether. Most people plan journeys online these days using the dreaded TfL journey planner 💩💩💩

If they switch solely to spider nonsense, then I'm done with tracking where each bus goes. Seems that the ability to read a proper map is considered a skill in this day and age.

Google maps appear to be incapable of showing where routes go accurately because routes are depicted with straight lines. The so called "maps" that you can bring up on the TfL website if you select a route are not very good IMO. The problem here is that the use of anyone's mapping technology costs money and if TfL want to use it for a purpose other than those they've contracted for it costs more money again. If TfL have binned FWT then the prospect of ever having a paper map again is probably lost because the start up cost of re-establishing the requisite design and data will be too high unless TfL does something to bolster its income. Forever relying on online facilities is not inclusive. You need a blend of solutions and we are losing that blend.

I expect that where we are going is a range of local guides using useless non geographic simple spider maps with no London wide connectivity at all other than by spending hours on a website scaling pages in and out to try to work out where routes go. Fine if you're wedded to using the awful journey planner. Cr*p if you've a brain and like to use maps and other info to sort things for yourself. This is all about cost and offloading cost from TfL to passengers who will have to pay for computers or smartphones and internet access rather than being able to pick up a free map from TfL.

[Deleted]

Well that's terrible news. I depend on those.

[redbus]

May 15, 2017 12:35:24 GMT @dillon95 said:

Well that's terrible news. I depend on those.

I am lost for words. It was bad enough when TfL's predecessors ditched one us map covering all of London, but now getting rid of the quadrant bus map is beyond belief. None of the TfL alternatives offer a replacement. I really sometimes wonder about TfLs thinking. I understand the need to save money, but ditching these maps is just wrong.  Rant over!

[Deleted]

How much money does it really cost to every now and again add a number to a part of the map? It's ridiculous.

[redwave]

I know that FWT used to produce a lot of maps and timetables for First Bus & they were very expensive. On the other hand, given the number of operators who no longer offer maps or a reduced number of printed timetables, I wonder how well FWT or Pindar are doing these days.

[snoggle]

May 15, 2017 22:08:15 GMT @dillon95 said:

How much money does it really cost to every now and again add a number to a part of the map? It's ridiculous.

I suspect it is rather more involved than that to be honest. It doesn't take much to cause wholesale alterations to text positioning etc. It also isn't just bus routes but all the other info that is on the map like hospitals and other facilities. There are also highway layout and junction changes that have to be rendered. There is also the reverse of the map which, of course, is not online. I think cost is one issue but I also suspect TfL have said "there are going to be enormous changes over the next 2-3 years, we don't stand a chance of ever having an up to date map over that period so let's stop producing now and get the furore out of the way". The other issue is that once you've tied yourself inextricably to online mapping and Google maps then you're pretty much stuck with it. You can probably also take a few people out of the process by not needing to have "map people" poring over proofs etc. Someone just has to create a file of the digital routing, presumably from an existing system, and some IT bod just sticks it in the system.

I think it's a huge loss - as I have said I refer to them daily on line and a bit less frequently to the paper versions and I have pretty good network knowledge but it's often the easiest way for me to confirm things. Trying to find the same thing via online info takes 3-4 times longer because you have to make umpteen selections. Still, I would no doubt be deemed a luddite by the "bright clever people" at TfL and told to go away and stop being old fashioned.

If anyone has not saved a pdf copy of each map to their computer I would suggest they do so now as we have no idea when TfL may switch them off. I saved my copies last week. I may also need to seek out a pristine set of paper maps too before there is a stampede for the last versions.

[ibus246]

May 15, 2017 22:54:49 GMT redwave said:

I know that FWT used to produce a lot of maps and timetables for First Bus & they were very expensive. On the other hand, given the number of operators who no longer offer maps or a reduced number of printed timetables, I wonder how well FWT or Pindar are doing these days.

Pindar also produce bus stop timetables definitely for Metrobus and soon to be B&H so not sure about other operators