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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 26, 2017 17:40:29 GMT
People spill of pavements in Brixton, doesn’t mean that pedestrianisation is the answer - imagine pedestrianising Brixton Road where the shops are - you’d effectively gridlock the place and the same will happen in Central London which is already struggling to cope with congestion as it is. I don't think anybody would seriously suggest pedestrianisation in Brixton. I don't see how closing Oxford Street will cause gridlock, it's only buses and taxis allowed along there. Should all the buses actually be cut back appropriately by TfL and not all cut back in a massive rush gridlock could possibly be avoided. However TfL just seem to insist on most routes on Oxford Street west cut to Marble Arch, it's not getting rid of the congestion caused on the road already but instead what's happening is the congestion is being removed and placed in a different area which already has a lot of congestion. I dread to think what they'll do in the two later stages when Oxford Street East and the little bit between Baker St and Marble Arch is pedestrianised.
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Post by sid on Dec 26, 2017 17:41:13 GMT
Yes, I’d turn the clock back in regards to North End and there are others out there who think the same as well. I am less sure about the merits of pedestrianisation than I used to be. Oxford Street will probably be OK, but I'd still like to see a bit more consideration and thought (and dare I say respect?) given to bus passengers as the plans are drawn up. I do wonder what it's done for somewhere like Croydon though. Yes, there are other economic factors in play, but I no longer shop in Croydon anywhere near as much as I used to. The bus stops are a schlep and on the wrong side of Wellesley Road, while the freed-up space in North End is not really used for anything, It might have been better to run the tram that way after all. Similarly, I do wonder what's been gained by closing the stretch of Lewisham High Street between Lewis Grove and the Clock Tower - again the space is not at all busy, and seems to mainly be a rubbish dump for the market stalls. I'd reopen it to buses to avoid the Lewis Grove/Lee High Road junction. TL, DR: not all pedestrianisations work as well as they should. I wonder why that is. Southbound stops are on the wrong side of Wellesley Road but the northbound stop is right outside the Whitgift Centre. There is often street entertainment near the former Allders store which obviously wouldn't be possible with traffic present.[] In Lewisham it would seem sensible to reopen that section by the clock tower for buses towards the station, big queues often build up at the crossroads.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 3, 2018 3:48:36 GMT
And even less so when all the buses are removed. I don't see Crossrail bringing more people to Oxford Street, I see it taking away people from the area to Westfield where you can have exactly the same experience indoors with a roof over your head and a tonne more shops than Oxford Street. Why a lot of people actually visit Oxford Street at the moment is because buses go down it. A lot of Oxford Street's shoppers are people who are already in Central London and need to get some shopping done. When the buses are removed and Crossrail opened it'll be just as easy if not easier to get to Westfield than Oxford Street for that shopping. Are you serious? People visit Oxford Street because buses go down there? If something isn't done about the current situation there will come a point when bus drivers refuse to go along Oxford Street on safety grounds anyway. bahahahaha, are you serious??? Safety grounds, PMSL
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 3, 2018 3:51:20 GMT
Oh come on Oxford Street isn't a danger zone, people don't walk along the middle of the road and I go there nearly everyday in the rush hour. It's hardly dangerous, it's just a few people that decide to cross without using a crossing. This issue is probably worse in Barking than it is along Oxford Street. It's more a case of people spilling off overcrowded pavements into the road. Anyway let's wait and see, if Oxford Street is full of boarded up shops and Selfridges has become a giant poundland in a few years time you can say I told you soo, personally I think business will boom once it's pedestrianised. Oxford Street is not the worst to drive a bus. far more other streets that are dangerous with people spilling into the road. Oxford Street is made out to be a war zone with evil nasty buses waiting to pick every person off the street and slaughter them by the shops calling for pedestrianisation in a snobbery way.
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Post by sid on Jan 3, 2018 3:55:05 GMT
It's more a case of people spilling off overcrowded pavements into the road. Anyway let's wait and see, if Oxford Street is full of boarded up shops and Selfridges has become a giant poundland in a few years time you can say I told you soo, personally I think business will boom once it's pedestrianised. Oxford Street is not the worst to drive a bus. far more other streets that are dangerous with people spilling into the road. Oxford Street is made out to be a war zone with evil nasty buses waiting to pick every person off the street and slaughter them by the shops calling for pedestrianisation in a snobbery way. Snobbery? Like I've said it's no different to what has happened in towns and cities allover the country.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 3, 2018 16:36:22 GMT
London Travelwatch's response to the proposed bus changes. www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=4470&age=&field=filePoints out an awful lot of issues already discussed here including the TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DAILY JOURNEYS THAT WILL BE DISRUPTED. Note that the re-routing of 2 routes via Wigmore St is "not certain" which will make matters far worse / borderline impossible for a lot of people. It will cause dislocation of routes and links elsewhere in Zone 1.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 18:33:33 GMT
London Travelwatch's response to the proposed bus changes. www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=4470&age=&field=filePoints out an awful lot of issues already discussed here including the TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DAILY JOURNEYS THAT WILL BE DISRUPTED. Note that the re-routing of 2 routes via Wigmore St is "not certain" which will make matters far worse / borderline impossible for a lot of people. It will cause dislocation of routes and links elsewhere in Zone 1. I’m heartened that the .”anti” , Oxford Street pedestrianisation is gathering pace, albeit I still wonder whether much notice will be given. All we can hope for, is making this scheme a direct threat to any potential extension of Mayor Khan’s reign. It has been disastrous for buses, with worse still to come. Unbelievable that TfL Twitter team had to point people towards an unofficial site recently for travel advice on New Years Eve.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Jan 7, 2018 16:45:09 GMT
I still can't believe there are people who'd want buses back down North End. For those of us who are actually old enough to remember the old Croydon, North End was a grotty shopping street with narrow pavements which as you can imagine on a Saturday afternoon would be 'fun', heaving with buses and cars, which wasn't very easy to cross the road. It divided the Whitgift from the Drummond (now Centrale) and wasn't a nice experience.
Don't get me wrong, pedestrianised or not, Croydon still has it's issues and is dying for the regeneration of the Whitgift as part of the new development which will see a Westfield on the site merged with Centrale, but making North End buses only would be a retrograde step in the regeneration of the town.
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on Jan 7, 2018 18:43:14 GMT
I still can't believe there are people who'd want buses back down North End. For those of us who are actually old enough to remember the old Croydon, North End was a grotty shopping street with narrow pavements which as you can imagine on a Saturday afternoon would be 'fun', heaving with buses and cars, which wasn't very easy to cross the road. It divided the Whitgift from the Drummond (now Centrale) and wasn't a nice experience. Don't get me wrong, pedestrianised or not, Croydon still has it's issues and is dying for the regeneration of the Whitgift as part of the new development which will see a Westfield on the site merged with Centrale, but making North End buses only would be a retrograde step in the regeneration of the town. Agree 100% with your post. The prdestriansation of Croydon North End has had a positive effect on the town centre and made it an attractive and safe place to shop. With the amount of footfall the town centre attracts, reopening North End to any mode of traffic wouldn't work. I hope Westfield development on the town centre helps change the image of Croydon as attractive alternative for people to visit like Stratford and White City have become.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 7, 2018 19:04:23 GMT
I still can't believe there are people who'd want buses back down North End. For those of us who are actually old enough to remember the old Croydon, North End was a grotty shopping street with narrow pavements which as you can imagine on a Saturday afternoon would be 'fun', heaving with buses and cars, which wasn't very easy to cross the road. It divided the Whitgift from the Drummond (now Centrale) and wasn't a nice experience. Don't get me wrong, pedestrianised or not, Croydon still has it's issues and is dying for the regeneration of the Whitgift as part of the new development which will see a Westfield on the site merged with Centrale, but making North End buses only would be a retrograde step in the regeneration of the town. Given I was the one who stuck my head above the parapet on this, I’m afraid I disagree. Granted, I was only one when it was pedestrianised but I’m afraid the access to the shops for buses is not great especially taking into account how terrible the road layout is in Croydon. You mention it was heaving with cars & buses however my proposal wouldn’t include cars or anything other than buses so it wouldn’t be as busy and would get people right to the two centres rather than depositing them on a bus dual carriageway. The other added bonus is buses would no longer need to use Station Road which easily clogs up full of traffic constantly - any routes still serving West Croydon Bus Station could use St. Michael’s Road with a few alterations made to the junction. I’m afraid pedestrianisation never takes into account what happens to the people trying to reach high streets & shopping areas not to mention the extra traffic chaos it causes as layouts are made complex and long winded. The high street has been dying for years, not helped by the massive presence of online sales and part of that is the access issue which is why out of town places like Brent Cross, Lakeside & Bluewater.
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Post by busaholic on Jan 7, 2018 22:23:00 GMT
My first post, so please be gentle! Perhaps ought to explain that I no longer live in London, but I did do so for 40 years. I follow London buses and, more particularly, its bus routes from afar virtually every day of my life, so you can call me an obsessive! The Oxford Street proposals are a disaster from the bus passenger point of view. I wonder whether anyone connected with the Oxford Street Association can remember the period about twenty years ago when Westminster Council closed the street between Orchard Street and Oxford Circus while they fiddled around endlessly with widening the pavements etc. For a whole year or so no buses, taxis or even emergency services had access and the stores were desperately calling for restoration of both buses and taxis - I seem to remember 15% decreases in both footfall and revenues being quoted. The Elizabeth Line down Oxford Street will bring little or no benefit to the residents of Streatham, Hendon or Stoke Newington, but the changes to bus services will have a lasting impact on some. The most egregious proposal of all (and there are plenty of contenders!) is the 10/23 tie-up, which seems to be done for purely administrative convenience. A more useless route would be hard to find. If you want Ladbroke Grove from Hammersmith you get a 295, for Paddington and just NW thereof a 27 from Hammersmith and Kensington, even the Knightsbridge to Edgware Road section has been covered by the 414 in recent years. The small number wanting Knightsbridge to Paddington or vice versa is the only (tiny) gain. I've read the alternative proposals on here, but I've got some slightly different ones of my own, and here they are:-
To preserve the direct link between Hammersmith to Knightsbridge on the one hand and Euston/Kings Cross on the other, with the added bonus of a return to Warren Street, I'd link the 10 at Marble Arch with the (already terminating there) 30, not necessarily as one route though. I suspect an awful lot of passengers will switch to the 30 at KX/EUS if these proposals are enacted, in order to reach the western section of Oxford Street, only exacerbated if the eastern part of Oxford Street is later closed and affects the 73 and 390. For the 23, I'd put it out of its (imposed by TfL) misery altogether, diverting the 414 to Westbourne Park from Maida Hill: maybe the 94 could be diverted 'around the corner' at Marble Arch to Maida Hill.
The 98 also has to get over to Holborn somehow, in my opinion. Perhaps the old 1/176 option via Marylebone Road, then TCR, would be better than nothing, but the Wigmore Street alternative really has to come into play if TfL are to offer any pretence that they still care about Central London bus services.
Incidentally, and although not directly part of these consultations, has anyone else noticed that if/when the 25 is cut back to Holborn Circus from Oxford Circus, there will be no way that anyone being chucked off at HC can then get to OC by one further bus, as the 8 only goes to Tott Ct Rd: the option of changing at Bank to the 23 was also taken away last September. If I were a 23 passenger I'd be furious. Hopper fare not much use here, westbound at least, from anywhere much beyond Mile End.
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Post by sid on Jan 8, 2018 11:01:35 GMT
I still can't believe there are people who'd want buses back down North End. For those of us who are actually old enough to remember the old Croydon, North End was a grotty shopping street with narrow pavements which as you can imagine on a Saturday afternoon would be 'fun', heaving with buses and cars, which wasn't very easy to cross the road. It divided the Whitgift from the Drummond (now Centrale) and wasn't a nice experience. Don't get me wrong, pedestrianised or not, Croydon still has it's issues and is dying for the regeneration of the Whitgift as part of the new development which will see a Westfield on the site merged with Centrale, but making North End buses only would be a retrograde step in the regeneration of the town. Yes I remember North End in Croydon being awful with traffic, I did think at the time there was a case for keeping it open southbound for buses with northbound buses going via Wellesley Road but it's fine as it is now. My daughter was amazed when I told her about traffic running up the top end of Bromley High Street and round the Market Square, she couldn't imagine how it was possible and I do wonder now how we managed. Another example of narrow and overcrowded pavements which wouldn't be acceptable now.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 8, 2018 11:36:49 GMT
I still can't believe there are people who'd want buses back down North End. For those of us who are actually old enough to remember the old Croydon, North End was a grotty shopping street with narrow pavements which as you can imagine on a Saturday afternoon would be 'fun', heaving with buses and cars, which wasn't very easy to cross the road. It divided the Whitgift from the Drummond (now Centrale) and wasn't a nice experience. Don't get me wrong, pedestrianised or not, Croydon still has it's issues and is dying for the regeneration of the Whitgift as part of the new development which will see a Westfield on the site merged with Centrale, but making North End buses only would be a retrograde step in the regeneration of the town. Agree 100% with your post. The prdestriansation of Croydon North End has had a positive effect on the town centre and made it an attractive and safe place to shop. With the amount of footfall the town centre attracts, reopening North End to any mode of traffic wouldn't work. I hope Westfield development on the town centre helps change the image of Croydon as attractive alternative for people to visit like Stratford and White City have become. Again, I'm afraid I disagree - opening North End to just buses would work personally because you'd actually likely to increase footfall into Whitgift & Centrale because buses can deposit people much closer to the shops and in a nicer environment than the dual carriageway Wellesley Road. At the end of the day, the high street is dying and accessibility along with a push to online sales are the main causes - yes, Croydon is getting a Westfield but it's not going to solve everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 14:16:26 GMT
My first post, so please be gentle! Perhaps ought to explain that I no longer live in London, but I did do so for 40 years. I follow London buses and, more particularly, its bus routes from afar virtually every day of my life, so you can call me an obsessive! The Oxford Street proposals are a disaster from the bus passenger point of view. I wonder whether anyone connected with the Oxford Street Association can remember the period about twenty years ago when Westminster Council closed the street between Orchard Street and Oxford Circus while they fiddled around endlessly with widening the pavements etc. For a whole year or so no buses, taxis or even emergency services had access and the stores were desperately calling for restoration of both buses and taxis - I seem to remember 15% decreases in both footfall and revenues being quoted. The Elizabeth Line down Oxford Street will bring little or no benefit to the residents of Streatham, Hendon or Stoke Newington, but the changes to bus services will have a lasting impact on some. The most egregious proposal of all (and there are plenty of contenders!) is the 10/23 tie-up, which seems to be done for purely administrative convenience. A more useless route would be hard to find. If you want Ladbroke Grove from Hammersmith you get a 295, for Paddington and just NW thereof a 27 from Hammersmith and Kensington, even the Knightsbridge to Edgware Road section has been covered by the 414 in recent years. The small number wanting Knightsbridge to Paddington or vice versa is the only (tiny) gain. I've read the alternative proposals on here, but I've got some slightly different ones of my own, and here they are:- To preserve the direct link between Hammersmith to Knightsbridge on the one hand and Euston/Kings Cross on the other, with the added bonus of a return to Warren Street, I'd link the 10 at Marble Arch with the (already terminating there) 30, not necessarily as one route though. I suspect an awful lot of passengers will switch to the 30 at KX/EUS if these proposals are enacted, in order to reach the western section of Oxford Street, only exacerbated if the eastern part of Oxford Street is later closed and affects the 73 and 390. For the 23, I'd put it out of its (imposed by TfL) misery altogether, diverting the 414 to Westbourne Park from Maida Hill: maybe the 94 could be diverted 'around the corner' at Marble Arch to Maida Hill. The 98 also has to get over to Holborn somehow, in my opinion. Perhaps the old 1/176 option via Marylebone Road, then TCR, would be better than nothing, but the Wigmore Street alternative really has to come into play if TfL are to offer any pretence that they still care about Central London bus services. Incidentally, and although not directly part of these consultations, has anyone else noticed that if/when the 25 is cut back to Holborn Circus from Oxford Circus, there will be no way that anyone being chucked off at HC can then get to OC by one further bus, as the 8 only goes to Tott Ct Rd: the option of changing at Bank to the 23 was also taken away last September. If I were a 23 passenger I'd be furious. Hopper fare not much use here, westbound at least, from anywhere much beyond Mile End. Sir, I salute you. Couldn’t agree anymore. Hadn’t regarded the 25 issue as you describe, but spot on. TfL will tell punters to use the Central Line instead. I am convinced the only research done into travel patterns now is amassing the vast swathes of data TfL obtain from everyone via contactless and Oyster cards. All very well, but how deeply do they look at the incomes of people using buses versus those on trains and tubes. If they do ( they might ) they’d see the elderly, poor and young use buses if they can instead of the tube because it’s cheaper. For the elderly , disabled and otherwise impaired, buses are vastly easier to use than the crowded and very inaccessible Underground system. It is outrageous that this Mayor is championing this London Is Open rubbish when he is actually closing it forthe less able bodied and elder generation. Absolutely appalling. As for the 10/23 , I’ve said it before as well like you. Utterly useless route , no thought has gone into it at all, Now that Metroline will run the 30 it could travel further west diverting at Baker Street maybe to Maida Hill via Paddington Green , with the 414 as you say taking up the 23 route from Marble Arch to X leaving the 10 to reroute via the 30 from M Arch.
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Post by sid on Jan 8, 2018 14:36:01 GMT
My first post, so please be gentle! Perhaps ought to explain that I no longer live in London, but I did do so for 40 years. I follow London buses and, more particularly, its bus routes from afar virtually every day of my life, so you can call me an obsessive! The Oxford Street proposals are a disaster from the bus passenger point of view. I wonder whether anyone connected with the Oxford Street Association can remember the period about twenty years ago when Westminster Council closed the street between Orchard Street and Oxford Circus while they fiddled around endlessly with widening the pavements etc. For a whole year or so no buses, taxis or even emergency services had access and the stores were desperately calling for restoration of both buses and taxis - I seem to remember 15% decreases in both footfall and revenues being quoted. The Elizabeth Line down Oxford Street will bring little or no benefit to the residents of Streatham, Hendon or Stoke Newington, but the changes to bus services will have a lasting impact on some. The most egregious proposal of all (and there are plenty of contenders!) is the 10/23 tie-up, which seems to be done for purely administrative convenience. A more useless route would be hard to find. If you want Ladbroke Grove from Hammersmith you get a 295, for Paddington and just NW thereof a 27 from Hammersmith and Kensington, even the Knightsbridge to Edgware Road section has been covered by the 414 in recent years. The small number wanting Knightsbridge to Paddington or vice versa is the only (tiny) gain. I've read the alternative proposals on here, but I've got some slightly different ones of my own, and here they are:- To preserve the direct link between Hammersmith to Knightsbridge on the one hand and Euston/Kings Cross on the other, with the added bonus of a return to Warren Street, I'd link the 10 at Marble Arch with the (already terminating there) 30, not necessarily as one route though. I suspect an awful lot of passengers will switch to the 30 at KX/EUS if these proposals are enacted, in order to reach the western section of Oxford Street, only exacerbated if the eastern part of Oxford Street is later closed and affects the 73 and 390. For the 23, I'd put it out of its (imposed by TfL) misery altogether, diverting the 414 to Westbourne Park from Maida Hill: maybe the 94 could be diverted 'around the corner' at Marble Arch to Maida Hill. The 98 also has to get over to Holborn somehow, in my opinion. Perhaps the old 1/176 option via Marylebone Road, then TCR, would be better than nothing, but the Wigmore Street alternative really has to come into play if TfL are to offer any pretence that they still care about Central London bus services. Incidentally, and although not directly part of these consultations, has anyone else noticed that if/when the 25 is cut back to Holborn Circus from Oxford Circus, there will be no way that anyone being chucked off at HC can then get to OC by one further bus, as the 8 only goes to Tott Ct Rd: the option of changing at Bank to the 23 was also taken away last September. If I were a 23 passenger I'd be furious. Hopper fare not much use here, westbound at least, from anywhere much beyond Mile End. I'm afraid I disagree with much of this, I think the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street is long overdue and the opening of Crossrail is the perfect opportunity to implement it. I really don't see what is so awful about the 10/23 proposal, there are a lot of similar routes in London that are not designed for end to end journeys, I'd hardly call the 10/23 useless. Having said that I would rather keep the 10 at Kings Cross but via Marylebone Road with the 30 curtailed at Euston or Warren Street. I do agree that Holborn Circus is a poor terminus for the 25, it should go to Holborn Station or Aldwych for easier onward connections and I don't disagree about the 98 still going to Holborn possibly via Marylebone Road?
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